Alliance + Horde = War?

[Hifazat]

Well does it? Are we at war. I want a final answer to this :p

[Leyujin]

Lorewise? Contradictory evidence.

Everything from the end of WC 3, to the *beginning* of WoW, shows there is no formal war, and no plans *for* a war from half to 3/4 of the Horde-side leadership to 1/4 to 1/2 of the Alliance-side leadership. However.

Now? Blizzard has introduced battlegrounds with increasingly hostile purposes, from AV and WSG to AB. Supposedly, war is just around the corner now... but only in these battlegrounds. We still don't see any spillover into the "real world". In fact, in the "real world", Alliance and Horde are forced to work together, not only in Silithus against the Quiraji, but soon against the Scourge in Lordaeron.

My take?
On the current lore: Blizzard is bullshit marketing to appeal to both the carebears, raiders and the pvp kiddies, and can't make up their goddamn minds on what the story actually is. It's all for commercial reasons.

On whether we should be at war? On a pvp server, I think we should! Unfortunately with DKs, that all goes down the rathole. Despite skill playing some factor, gear is the majority of determining pvp outcome. Unless your a raider, your best bet for good pvp gear lies in the "honor" system <laughs>. And to be frank.

You don't have the gear. You lose.
You don't have the backup of large guilds. You lose.
You try to prosecute a war on your own? Fine until you run up against some massive T2 equipped guilds who decide to stomp you flat, or any town to speak of with guard zerg. You lose.

Your final answer? People can make up any reasons they want, and so small skirmishes with no purpose can crop up all the time, or there can be times when alliance and horde pass each other with a wave. But ultimately: There is no war.

[EnheilRas]

Depends on who you work for.

Thrall says no. Because Thrall says no, Vol'jin and Cairne say no.

However, there are Elements in the Horde which push for war: Namely Captain Shatter Skull of the Warsong and Kadrak, Captain of Mor'shan. They believe that the Horde should have complete supremacy over Kalimdor. It is the Manifest Destiny for the Horde to spread on this continent and control it.

They are aided in this by the fact that almost every new Horde character has come from one of two places:

1.) They were raised in the human internment camps. A Huge majority of all Horde were born in the Prison Camps, and forced to endure a lost childhood of slavery; They were raised in horrible, destute conditions, and treated by harsh taskmasters and made to do backbreaking labor. Many would watch their parents die under these conditions. That breeds a hatred of the Alliance.

2.) They were raised as natural Frostwolves. These are the lucky ones. They were born in Orcish traditions, and lived very peacefully, only hearing stories of the wars, but never coming in contact with the Alliance. They tend to hold a more utopian view of things and are not quick to fighting. However, the Invasion by the Alliance into the Valley to kill their families, destroy their homes, and desecrate their birthland has really turned these once peaceful Orcs into rampaging beasts ready to kill.

(A Minor faction would be in the Warsong Clan, as they never were captured, byt the fact that the elves are tearing into Warsong territory, they too, would be quick to war; The fact that for all intents and purposes, Shatterskull is the new Warsong Chieftain, they would agree to his assumption that the Horde should have full control of Kalimdor).

Sylvanas, however, actively supports the killing of the Alliance. The Queldorei have no love for the Alliance, and she may feel ultimately (and rightly) betreyed by the Alliance who did not lift a finger to help Silvermoon when it fell to Arthas. Furthermore, she may blame the Alliance FOR Arthas. She's quite insane, so I won't try to understand too much. Nonetheless, her crusade seems justified due to the Alliance's Scarlet Crusade, as well as that a majority of Border Skirmishes have occured on Lordaeron Land. The Alliance's misguidance that the Forsaken are indeed not the Inhabitants of Lordaeron, but just mindless undead, have girded them to fight a Holy War to "Liberate" Lordaeron from the very beings which had already done that.

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The Kingdom of Stormwind is the foremost power pushing against the Forsaken, and thus increasing the chances of War with the Horde after their Political Alliance with the Forsaken. Though this is probably not Fordragon's doing (It can be blamed on Archbishop Benedictus), the most probably cause is the fact that Stormwind is being manipulated by the Black Dragonflight Brood Mother, Onyxia, in the guise of Katrianna Prestor. Onyxia's actions of kidnapping the King of Stormwind *and rumor has it she has dealings with the Defias and has engineered them to begin their great seaside bombing with the retrofitted Ogre Juggernaut derelict of the Second War,* she is masterminding the next great War Between the Horde and Alliance so she can conquer the MOrtal races alongside her Brother, Nefarion.

The Kingdom of Ironforge is pouring it's coffers into the Explorer's League, lead by the late Brann Bronzebeard. Magni took the loss of Muradin very hard, and the fact that Brann's death was near witnessed by his fellow explorers in Hive'Ashi has made him all the more morose. As such, Magni has been easy to take advantage of, and Vanndar Stormpike has done exactly this. Taking a huge amount of military resources, he has gone to extremes to find riches and gold for the Kingdom. This has led him to Alterac.

The Kingdom of Darnassus, with Malfurion's Falling Out, has been taken control of by an Elf named Fandral Staghelm, who's most infamous callings come from being unable to conquer the Qiraji empire in Silithus, leading to the traumatizing death of his son by General Rajaxx. Fandral took this loss extremely hard, and has become introverted and sinister from it. The expansion of the Horde's Empire has activated a serious ire from the Night Elves, whom still hold gruges against the Warsong when Shandris Feathermoon sought out Cenarius to destroy them after she attacked the Warsong Camp, and watched in Horror as Grom killed the Demi-God Himself. The Elves refuse to let the Orcs "Have their share" of Kalimdor, but are unable to stop their expansion and proliferation through all parts of Kalimdor, where many Orcs are learning all the dark secrets the Elves have been hiding from the world all along. Fandral himself has expressed a genocidal campaign against all troll peoples, and the two tribes loyal to the Horde have marked the HOrde as a target for these campaigns.

[Daala]

It's very important to remember that the majority of non WoW lore stems from Reign of Chaos and the Frozen Throne, and that both of these games focused on a very select few individuals. This tends to encourage the view that the entire world feels as these folks do, and that's not the case. In the optional Orc campaign of Frozen Throne, *Spoilers*

Thrall and Admiral Proudmoore, leader of the entire nation of Kul'Tiras, I believe, are locked in a duel for keeps. Jaina is forced to stand by and watch, presumably unable to convince her father to lay down arms.

The Blood Elves are another example. We don't know ANYTHING about the Blood Elves that did not accompany Kael'thas to Outland. In fact, Frozen Throne offered nothing to suggest that he did not take every single one with him. I thought that this was the case until the Burning Crusade preview. They're a complete wildcard, really anybody's guess as to mannerisms or mindsets, passions or politics, past inference.

Anyways. On topic. What I'm getting at is that the issue of war is very ambiguous, and I don't think anybody can offer a clear answer to your question on general, non-specific Horde/Alliance terms.

[Aquizit]

RP-Wise.. in a dwarf's opinion, we have thus:


The orcs are invaders. Always were, always will be. They're not of this world.. they came to burn, pillage, plunder, and kill, whether or not they were "not of sound mind" doesn't matter. They have no right to any of Azeroth, and must be taken care of.

The trolls are natural enemies of dwarven kind simply because of the Wildhammers hatred of the Vilebranch (I think it's vilebranch?) and the Bronzebeard dwarves don't care enough to differentiate the different species.. a troll is a troll.


The undead are an abomination.. they're unpure, and they stink of foul magick. They deserve to be destroyed simply because they shouldn't exsist in the first place. Let the dead rest.

The Tauren is hard to say really.. Tauren are naturally peaceful, but.. they -are- allied with the orcs, and are seemingly upset about the dwaves "desecration" of Tauren lands, when it's simply for archeological research. This sparks skirmishes at multiple dig-sites, along with when accompanied by orcs, trolls, and undead.

[EnheilRas]

RP-Wise.. in a dwarf's opinion, we have thus:


The orcs are invaders. Always were, always will be. They're not of this world.. they came to burn, pillage, plunder, and kill, whether or not they were "not of sound mind" doesn't matter. They have no right to any of Azeroth, and must be taken care of.

The trolls are natural enemies of dwarven kind simply because of the Wildhammers hatred of the Vilebranch (I think it's vilebranch?) and the Bronzebeard dwarves don't care enough to differentiate the different species.. a troll is a troll.

From a Troll's Perspective, the same can be said of the Dwarves:

They're an abomination, a miscalculation; A mutant mistake of am algorithm never meant to be that spawned from rock and immediately began setting out to kill, plunder, and burn the Ice Troll Lands. The very year they spawned from Uldaman, they set out in force, destroying the nearby Ice Troll village, and launched an assault on the Kingdom, burning it to the ground, and built Ironforge upon their remains.

Even now, they work their hardest to oppress and destroy the native inhabitants of Dun Morogh. Not letting them survive in the land they stole.


The Tauren is hard to say really.. Tauren are naturally peaceful, but.. they -are- allied with the orcs, and are seemingly upset about the dwaves "desecration" of Tauren lands, when it's simply for archeological research. This sparks skirmishes at multiple dig-sites, along with when accompanied by orcs, trolls, and undead.

Tell that to the legions of tribes the dwarves have massacred in order to clear the land to dig upon it.

[Voljaan]

I can't really see how Blizzard can take the lore they have and get a war out of it. Now, the trolls I can see: They have had wars with everyone on the continent of Azeroth, including themselves. I can also see why the Forsaken would have reason to fight. They have a psycho queen who is bent on the utter destruction of all life on Azeroth, and most Forsaken are dedicated to her cause.

I don't get why the Orcs are hated, though. I could see their feuds with the Night Elves as being resonable, but the Humans really have no right to kill them. The Orcs were driven by a lust for battle which was caused by the Burning Legion. A lot of Orcs were sent to Azeroth against their will. They probably would have gone back to Dreanor were it not for the destruction of not only the portal that went to the planet, but the planet itself as well. Because of the Humans. They even ended their bloodlust and helped the Humans and Night Elves against the Burning Legion. So basically, they are on a foreign planet against their will, can't go back to their planet of origin because of the Humans, moved off the continent the Humans lived on, tried to make peace which was disrupted by a group of Humans, and now the Humans hate them. Is it just me, or does this not make sense?

As for Tauren, the only thing I can see is that they're allied with the Horde.

As for the Alliance races, as mentioned above I can only see them with reason to fight the Trolls and Forsaken.

[Keraph]

You're expecting the general population to be sympathetic and understanding with the orcs who, thourgh their own will or not, killed their families and razed their lands. As we can learn from real-world history, people are unwilling to accept things that are not compatible with their beliefs.

[Karkarov]

WW I started because a king in a country america had 0 political ties to was assassinated by rebels in his government. But it ballooned into a war that was big enough to be called World War.

In WoW we have Sylvanas who flat wants to kill all the alliance, the Humans and Dwarves who both want to flat kill all forsaken, the Trolls who are long term enemies of EVERY alliance race, and Forsaken are allies of Thrall as well as the hated trolls are part of the horde. Then the night elves hate Forsaken, trolls, and probably consider the orcs invading devils and the Tauren have plenty reason to hate dwarves. The only group without a solid reason to go into it are gnomes except they live on dwarf lands and have to serve Magni so there goes thier nuetrality.

It doesnt take a genious to connect the dots. War is inevitable in the political set up of WoW.

[Daala]

Saying that the Orcs shouldn't be condemned for circumstances beyond their sphere of control is like saying that most Nazis were ordinary people who were unaware of the death camps. Whether it's true or not, general sentiment is not going to swallow that.

Since Thrall was introduced, Blizzard has been very conscientious of avoiding black and white distinguishments. In Warcraft I and II, and the First and Second Wars they encompassed, this was NOT the case. Orcs were evil, they slaughtered babies and consorted with black dragons. They practiced necromancy and performed demonic rituals. I'm all for the current stance of good and bad on both sides, but historically, this is a new thing. In RP terms, the sheer majority of Humans and Gnomes remember the slaughter. The Dwarves remember the Dragonmaw enslavement. The High Elves are just as angry, though not quite as much ire as directed towards the Trolls. The Night Elves first encountered the Orcs when the Warsong Clan tore into Cenarius' private woods for lumber, and proceeded to kill the Demigod who had watched over their race for millenia.

There are very many very good reasons for the general populace to despise Orcs.

[EnheilRas]

Saying that the Orcs shouldn't be condemned for circumstances beyond their sphere of control is like saying that most Nazis were ordinary people who were unaware of the death camps. Whether it's true or not, general sentiment is not going to swallow that.

But you need to realize it's been over thirty years since the second war. An overwhelming percentage of the orcs that fought in the second war have died. Their progeny are the ones left, and are thus unmarred with the mark of Chaos on them. Those Orcs unlucky enough to have been hazed are at least 50 years old (Grom was 46, and he was the first; It's been 4 years since his death), with the average being 70, which is past an orcs average life expectancy.

It's impossible to use the Nazi metaphor because after the Loss of the War, not only was Germany allowed to still exist, they worked their asses off to remove any memory of the Third Reich from their nation, just as the Orcish Horde has removed any sign of demonic corruption from their race. Germany is a very strong nation now, and although it does not have a military power (Keeps a police force and GIGN for SpecOps), it's become a strong world economic power.. also Rammstein.

The Alliance refuses to let the Horde rebuild itself into a Peaceful Nation. It would be like if the Soviet Union, every other year, would level Berlin to the Ground and leave. What's the point? The Horde deserves their right to exist. They are no more responsible for the second war as the people of Germany today are responsible for the Third Reich. They deeply resent that era of their history and have worked terribly to redeem themselves for it.


Since Thrall was introduced, Blizzard has been very conscientious of avoiding black and white distinguishments. In Warcraft I and II, and the First and Second Wars they encompassed, this was NOT the case. Orcs were evil, they slaughtered babies and consorted with black dragons. They practiced necromancy and performed demonic rituals. I'm all for the current stance of good and bad on both sides, but historically, this is a new thing.

No more evil than any other nation which seeks conquest. No more evil than the Night Elves when they woke and began their conquest of the Gurubashi. No more evil than when the Dwarves stepped from Uldaman and began their Conquest of the Gundrak. No more evil than the Sunstrider Exiles when they landed in Zul'Aman and began their conquest of the Troll Empire there.

It is the Philosophy of a Nation to proliferate, conquer, and claim. That's just how beings all. It's Social Darwinism at work. To claim the right to be the strongest. All people in WarCraft are inherent strong believers in nationalism. It is their patriotism that breeds racism.


In RP terms, the sheer majority of Humans and Gnomes remember the slaughter. The Dwarves remember the Dragonmaw enslavement. The High Elves are just as angry, though not quite as much ire as directed towards the Trolls. The Night Elves first encountered the Orcs when the Warsong Clan tore into Cenarius' private woods for lumber, and proceeded to kill the Demigod who had watched over their race for millenia.

Hell, the gnomes were mostly spared. They weren't allowed to fight and only served as reconnaissance and engineers. They, like the Dwarves, were exiled from Khaz Modan when the Bleeding Hollow conquered Ironforge.

I must also insist that Grom Hellscream and the Warsong were defending themselves against the Sentinel Army lead by Shandris Feathermoon. She started attacking them, and she was the one to call Cenarius on them. I suppose Shandris must be a young one, because she obviously had no recollection of Broxigar, as that Orc was one of the greatest Heroes of the War of the Ancients, and a good friend of Tyrande, Malfurion, and Illidan. He was a celebrity. She must have been born after the War to not have remembered what an Orc looked like.


There are very many very good reasons for the general populace to despise Orcs.

There's twice as many to hate Elves.

[Daala]

As a person, I agree with every single point that you made. I'm not talking on such terms, however. It's absolutely true that many of the Orcs of the Second War are gone. But nothing I've seen in-game suggests that the Alliance is letting that fact, or the elapsed time modify their perspectives. I did not use the Nazi metaphor to delineate the Horde as a political entity, but rather to depict the Orcs as individual, sentient beings who shared a common organization. I in no way intended to speak of Germany as a nation. I believe that we're thinking about the word Nazi from differing perspectives. On a level of nations, I absolutely agree that the comparison is trifling and incompatible.

As for the morality of the Horde, again, personally I agree with you. But that's not the way that they've been depicted until Thrall. By that, I don't refer to the in-story birth of the man, but rather the metagame moment when Blizzard conceived a less savage Orc. I apologize for not clarifying that. The Gurubashi, Ulduman, Zul'Aman, I believe that none of these things were introduced at or prior to Warcraft II.

With the advent of Warcraft III and every bit of lore to come since, I personally find the Alliance more disagreeable than the Horde. I have not read the novels. But again, and I'm sorry for beating this point into the ground, but I don't want any confusion. I'm not speaking from perspective. This topic was about official lore, so I'm limiting my thoughts to the manner in which I feel that Blizzard has historically depicted the Orcs prior to their conception of Thrall.

[Aquizit]

WC3, FT, and WoW depict the Alliance to be: not as good as they might seem.


But then again.. the Alliance races have ruled Azeroth for thousands of years, and finally the corruption, attacks from within and without, and constant turmoil threaten their races. Like all great empires.

When it comes to the Horde, they just want to carve their niche in the world and be left alone. .. Non-Forsaken that is.

As for diplomatic relations..

Orcs to humans, dwarves and gnomes.. are invaders. Period. I've gone over that before. The exception: those who were with Jaina in Theramore, but even then, the occasional skirmishes in Dustwallow don't help relations.

To night elves too they are invaders, but to a lesser degree, as they didn't destroy the capital city, or decimate an entire generation of their people or enslave a dragonflight to fight against them. But.. the orcs went into Ashenvale for lumber FIRST.. Shandris did not come out looking for them. She was defending the vale, and sent Cenarius against the INVADERS.

As for the Stormpike dwarves, Bronzebeard doesn't necissarily support the venture, save for the fact that Ironforge coffers regularly make donations to the.. "expedition." Simply being taken advantage of in his soft state by the loud-mouthed, brash, violent, and aggressive Vanndar.. Pylith may see the false dig-site for what it really is: the extermination effort against the Frostwolf Orcs, and disapprove, but the Stormpikes are still his brethren.


Trolls: Every Alliance race has had a war with a type of troll at least once..

Tauren: To this, I have no argument. For non-dwarves, they are simply allied with the orcs, and therefore, are enemies as well.

For dwarves.. they attack their dig-sites, which... yes, were taken forcibly, and without permission. We are indeed aggressors in this case. Otherwise, Tauren are indigenous to Azeroth and Kalimdor, and have the right to claim land. Pylith in this case seems to hate the shamans most of all, those shocks hurt.

The Forsaken: Undead are undead are undead... they destroyed the kingdom of Lordaeon, and killed every living thing they came across. There are no shades of grey here.. only blood red.

As for the Horde, they've only run into the undead once: the battle for Hyjal. So when Sylvanus came to Thrall.. she was a bit more well received than in the human lands.



But, that's -my- opinion.

[Xeran]

Very interesting discussion all! It shows the intelligence of the TNG community that we are relying on evidence in the game and the Lore to decide about the state of things, not "the name of the game is WARcraft, we're at WARZ0RZ!" So if the name of the game were HAPPYcraft, it would somehow change things? The name of the game is also warCRAFT: shouldn't we be in Orgrimmar or Ironforge making Big Bronze Knives and Runecloth bandages?

Anyway, here's my bit: whether or not the Horde and Alliance are at war depends a lot on your definition of War. There has been no formal declairation of war on either side. In fact, one of the first things Thrall says to new visitors is, in a nutshell, "we're not the same old Horde, we'll defend what is ours but there is also a time to put away the weapons." Horde and Alliance have many points of contention but even the Forsaken have not sent armies anywhere to kill anyone. So if your definition of war is an official act of State implementing the use of arms on another State, then we are not at war.

However, we have battlegrounds and PvP and all the rest. While Thrall is not raising an army to smash Stormwind, his troops can go fight in Alterac Valley and kill Alliance. We can kill each other in contested lands. In a technical sense, I believe this is referred to as a "Low Intensity Conflict" (LIC). Orders for the battles in the world do not come directly from the top, but from underlings. Also, the battles are relatively minor in nature. Securing resources in Arathi Basin is not quite the same as eliminating Thunder Bluff. So if the definition of war is hostile action taken by representatives of different armies regardless of any official sanction by the heads of those armies' States, then we are at war.

[mrodar]

Some very interesting points here.

I also think that the battlegrounds would fall under the category of "Low Intensity Conflict". This particularly true in the cases of Alterac Valley and Arathi Basin, where the combatants are probably not official members of the Horde or Alliance armies. I'd always viewed the Stormpike Army, the League of Arathor and the Defilers as being private paramilitary forces without any official connection to the governments of the Horde or Alliance. This is a bit more problematic in regards to the Frostwolf Clan. Presumably the battle of Alterac Valley continues because, since the Stormpike Army is not "officially" working for Ironforge, it cannot legally be considered an act of war on part of the Alliance.

Warsong Gulch is a bit different, since it seems pretty clear that the Silverwing Sentinels and Warsong Outriders are part of their respective factions. I would suppose that the conflict is prevented from spilling over simply because both sides agreed to make it very limited in scope.

[EnheilRas]

The Defilers are actually a private army of Varimathras, which means they're Deathstalkers. As such, the Basin fight isn't really supported by the Horde, but is a forsaken affair. The Horde has been swayed somewhat due to the Defilers convincing them that if the Arathorians regain a huge amount of resources, it will only be a matter of time before they launch an attack on hammerfall to wipe the Horde agents there. Thus, the Forsaken are wisely using the Orc's natural paranoia to benefit their war.

The Warsong and Frostwolf Clans are the largest of the remaining clans of the Horde (The other being the Shattered Hand, composing entirely of all troll and orc rogues). Defending these clans, their lives, and their land, is the primary agenda of the Horde; This includes the Lumber Camp to which the Sentinels are assaulting.