Time

[Chikt]

So I was just spending some time thinking about the Caverns of Time since a lot of people have disputed it’s viability as lore. So I’ve come up with a little theory as to how time in World of Warcraft functions.

The theory of time that I personally find most viable is an alternate universe one. And the Warcraft lore lends itself well to it. The Bronze Dragonkin keep the timelines in check to make sure that no alternate timelines are formed, keeping the rate of timelines from exploding exponentially so that there is just one, solid timeline about Azeroth. However, they’ve let travelers go back to change Azeroth before, so it can be debated just how many timelines of Azeroth there really are. It depends on if any mistakes are made by the Bronze Dragonkin.

Old Hillsbrad.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/DMDyet/OldHillsbrad.jpg
Bronze Line: Bronze Dragonflight
Blue Line: Infinite Dragonflight

When you first arrive and get told what’s been going on, it sounds like the Infinite Dragonflight have already been there for a good while. The people originally meant to help save Thrall have been taken out of the picture, and so now you have to go in disguise to save him for them. The fact that the Bronze Dragonflight doesn’t send you in before the Infinite likely means that the people that were originally supposed to have saved Thrall were indeed people from a future Azeroth. It could also be that the Infinite Dragonflight caught the Bronze Dragonflight off-guard and can somehow hinder the Bronze’s power over time, thus making the Bronze unable to send you back too far. So this could be assumed to be the Infinite Dragonflight’s “first strike”.

We can assume that with the Bronze Dragonflight sending in multiple waves of Azerothian heroes back to Old Hillsbrad, where one group fails the Bronze Dragonflight have control to prevent the future ramifications for a time until another group can enter and succeed.

Black Morass

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/DMDyet/BlackMorass.jpg
Bronze Line: Bronze Dragonflight
Blue Line: Infinite Dragonflight

This time it’s a decisive and preemptive strike by the Bronze Dragonflight that sees you arriving before the Infinite. This brings me to believe that the Bronze Dragonflight either sensed that the Infinite would next attack Medivh at the dark portal, or sent out agents to that time to watch and report back their findings. However, it seems from the start that the heroes of Azeroth catch the Infinite Dragonflight off-guard. Their attack is sloppy at best, but this is likely because there are no humans around to see it take place, only Medivh himself. So they attack without a disguise and without remorse.

Many have argued the merit of the Alliance actually being there and attempting to open the dark portal, dooming hundreds of their people to death. The answer is the future ramifications of the portal not being opened. The many segregated human forces would find themselves going to war against one-another without one united enemy. The Burning Legion would arrive and the few forces to stand against the armies of the Scourge would be decimated from years of infighting or complete lack of a competent war machine like they had built from years of fighting the Orcs. And without the Thrall or the Orcs to unite the new Azerothian Horde, there would be no Alliance, the Burning Legion would wipe out the little resistance on Azeroth that existed, and simply add another planet to the list of planets conquered.

Mount Hyjal

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/DMDyet/Mount-Hyjal.jpg
Bronze Line: Bronze Dragonflight
Red Line: Kaz’Rogal

Mount Hyjal is interesting, as it’s been described by Blizzard as a “pocket in time”. This doesn’t seem conductive to the lore, as I can’t see the Bronze Dragonflight sending people willy-nilly through time simply to “experience” the events. Instead, there is a new, odd unit in Mount Hyjal by the name of Kaz’Rogal. Kaz’Rogal was not at the battle of Mount Hyjal during the third war, and so it can be assumed that he, instead, arrived there by another means. It seems obvious that he is demonic, likely not an Infinite Dragon in disguise. So we can assume that the Burning Legion and Infinite Dragonflight are working in conjunction.

While he doesn’t seem as big a threat, it is another foe for the already strained Alliance and Horde forces to face. And so it seems possible that the Bronze Dragonflight, seeing this threat, sent the heroes of Azeroth back to even the odds a little.

So it could be theorized that the next Caverns of Time instance will actually be another, more forward strike by the Infinite Dragonflight against a pivotal event in history.

[Bir]

Your last graph's line colors are messed up.

[Fallacy]

Okay, I'll clear some stuff up.



Old Hillsbrad.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/DMDyet/OldHillsbrad.jpg
Bronze Line: Bronze Dragonflight
Blue Line: Infinite Dragonflight

When you first arrive and get told what’s been going on, it sounds like the Infinite Dragonflight have already been there for a good while. The people originally meant to help save Thrall have been taken out of the picture, and so now you have to go in disguise to save him for them. The fact that the Bronze Dragonflight doesn’t send you in before the Infinite likely means that the people that were originally supposed to have saved Thrall were indeed people from a future Azeroth. It could also be that the Infinite Dragonflight caught the Bronze Dragonflight off-guard and can somehow hinder the Bronze’s power over time, thus making the Bronze unable to send you back too far. So this could be assumed to be the Infinite Dragonflight’s “first strike”.

We can assume that with the Bronze Dragonflight sending in multiple waves of Azerothian heroes back to Old Hillsbrad, where one group fails the Bronze Dragonflight have control to prevent the future ramifications for a time until another group can enter and succeed.



The Bronze did not send anyone before the players. The person that helped Thrall was Taretha Foxton, who the Infinite trap so that the fiery diversion she set off wouldn't happen, keeping Thrall from escaping. The players take her place, recreating the diversion, although killing people wasn't part of it, and it took place at night. The Infinite are actually blocking the full Bronze force from entering the timeline, in addition to not wanting to have a massive force invading and messing up the timeline, which is why the players have to be sent. The memories of Taretha and Thrall are altered to change the situation, but they didn't want to do that for a whole village.



Black Morass

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/DMDyet/BlackMorass.jpg
Bronze Line: Bronze Dragonflight
Blue Line: Infinite Dragonflight

This time it’s a decisive and preemptive strike by the Bronze Dragonflight that sees you arriving before the Infinite. This brings me to believe that the Bronze Dragonflight either sensed that the Infinite would next attack Medivh at the dark portal, or sent out agents to that time to watch and report back their findings. However, it seems from the start that the heroes of Azeroth catch the Infinite Dragonflight off-guard. Their attack is sloppy at best, but this is likely because there are no humans around to see it take place, only Medivh himself. So they attack without a disguise and without remorse.

Many have argued the merit of the Alliance actually being there and attempting to open the dark portal, dooming hundreds of their people to death. The answer is the future ramifications of the portal not being opened. The many segregated human forces would find themselves going to war against one-another without one united enemy. The Burning Legion would arrive and the few forces to stand against the armies of the Scourge would be decimated from years of infighting or complete lack of a competent war machine like they had built from years of fighting the Orcs. And without the Thrall or the Orcs to unite the new Azerothian Horde, there would be no Alliance, the Burning Legion would wipe out the little resistance on Azeroth that existed, and simply add another planet to the list of planets conquered.



Just about right. The fight in Old Hillsbrad gave the Bronze the ability to discover their next attack, and efficiently prepare.




Mount Hyjal

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/DMDyet/Mount-Hyjal.jpg
Bronze Line: Bronze Dragonflight
Red Line: Kaz’Rogal

Mount Hyjal is interesting, as it’s been described by Blizzard as a “pocket in time”. This doesn’t seem conductive to the lore, as I can’t see the Bronze Dragonflight sending people willy-nilly through time simply to “experience” the events. Instead, there is a new, odd unit in Mount Hyjal by the name of Kaz’Rogal. Kaz’Rogal was not at the battle of Mount Hyjal during the third war, and so it can be assumed that he, instead, arrived there by another means. It seems obvious that he is demonic, likely not an Infinite Dragon in disguise. So we can assume that the Burning Legion and Infinite Dragonflight are working in conjunction.

While he doesn’t seem as big a threat, it is another foe for the already strained Alliance and Horde forces to face. And so it seems possible that the Bronze Dragonflight, seeing this threat, sent the heroes of Azeroth back to even the odds a little.

So it could be theorized that the next Caverns of Time instance will actually be another, more forward strike by the Infinite Dragonflight against a pivotal event in history.

It was only officially a little while ago that a CM said that the Infinite has no involvement with the Battle of Mount Hyjal. Kaz'rogal not being present in WC3 doesn't mean he wasn't present in the battle itself, as there were no Doomguard hero units back then. Not everything in the Caverns is explainable, and I doubt we'll see anything else official of it.

[Chikt]

Your last graph's line colors are messed up.

So it is. >.>


The Bronze did not send anyone before the players. The person that helped Thrall was Taretha Foxton, who the Infinite trap so that the fiery diversion she set off wouldn't happen, keeping Thrall from escaping. The players take her place, recreating the diversion, although killing people wasn't part of it, and it took place at night. The Infinite are actually blocking the full Bronze force from entering the timeline, in addition to not wanting to have a massive force invading and messing up the timeline, which is why the players have to be sent. The memories of Taretha and Thrall are altered to change the situation, but they didn't want to do that for a whole village.

I know that, you misunderstood what I said. Re-read it. I basically said everything you did. What I was basically saying is, because the timeline was altered, in Azerothian history now, Thrall was saved by a bunch of Azerothian heroes of the Alliance and the Horde from the future, rather than Taretha Foxton. However, Thrall remembers it the old way.


It was only officially a little while ago that a CM said that the Infinite has no involvement with the Battle of Mount Hyjal. Kaz'rogal not being present in WC3 doesn't mean he wasn't present in the battle itself, as there were no Doomguard hero units back then. Not everything in the Caverns is explainable, and I doubt we'll see anything else official of it.

Not everything in the Caverns is explainable, no, but I am trying to come up with an explanation. That is the purpose of a theory. As I said, I doubt that the Bronze Dragonflight would simply let people go back to "pockets in time" to experience past events. Considering they are meant to protect the timeline, it seems to go against every rule in the book that they live by. While hiring heroes from Azeroth was more a necessary action.

[Malakim]

Maybe it's like the Terminator where, we had to go back and were there during the battle of mount hyjal in order for it to have succeeded. There were so many people there in that fight who would have noticed a few extras here and there that were helping.

Besides we all did the same damn thing in that fight in WC 3 we made a whole bunch of tree buildings and walled off that gate with an army of buildings.

[Skafloc]

Maybe it's like the Terminator where, we had to go back and were there during the battle of mount hyjal in order for it to have succeeded. There were so many people there in that fight who would have noticed a few extras here and there that were helping.

See, here is the age old problem with time travel: Its a fixed point in time, feeding off of an infinite future.

A few extras here and there sure. But there would be many, many more than a "few" what with a multitude of heroes going back to that single point in time, again and again. Hell you might even run into yourself from a previous visit!

My brain hurts.

[Malakim]

See, here is the age old problem with time travel: Its a fixed point in time, feeding off of an infinite future.

A few extras here and there sure. But there would be many, many more than a "few" what with a multitude of heroes going back to that single point in time, again and again. Hell you might even run into yourself from a previous visit!

My brain hurts.

That's why you just carry around a photo of your family and when the picture starts to fade you get into a session of Johnny B Goode your dad kisses your mom and the day is saved.

[Raziel]

and then suddenly Biff had a casino, and Marty's mom had humongous boobs!

[Malakim]

But then you go back in time to the old west and make a time machine out of a train, and all is right with the world again.

Cause that's the power, that's the power of love.

[Chikt]

The resounding theory is, I suppose, that for every possibility, an alternate universe could sprout from it. However, we're time travelling, not travelling through universes. We wouldn't be able to go back and change our history, in going back we'd be creating an alternate reality where we went back and changed things for ourselves. The Time Traveler would not experience any change. So when we returned to our "present" time, nothing would have changed, since our little foray into history would merely create an alternate history.

So that's why-ignoring the powers of the Bronze Dragonflight-if we go back in time to Old Hillsbrad and the group wipes. When we return to the present, nothing has changed. However, in another reality, Thrall never escaped Durnholde Keep because of our failure.

I suppose it is an odd way of looking at how time works. That there is a single resounding timeline for every person. But if you were to change history and you, yourself, were effected by the change, a whole lot of problems would arise. If you were to go back in time and kill your own mother, you would not cease to exist. But an alternate reality would be created where you didn't exist because your future self from another reality was an ass and killed your mother before you were born.

Kinda solves all those little problems with time theories.

[Malakim]

There was that time when you back in time and preformed certain actions that made you, your own grandfather.

I did do the nasty in the pasty.

[Raziel]

Wrath of the Lich King will introduce a new Caverns instance:

Helping Arthas in Stratholme.

[Darkblade]

So, with Blizzard coming up with all these "you must do bad things to help preserve time" CoT instances, I wonder if they're going to go back and change Chromie's quests to save dude, since that is actually changing a bit of history, and the bronze is all about preserving history, not making it more nice.