Forsaken and feelings

[Bahlmoral]

Maybe I'm not looking around hard enough, but I have yet to come across what types of feelings a Forsaken could experience.

Here my meaning of feelings is all things physical (hot & cold, fatigue, pain, etc...), not emotional feeling.

I was wondering this because I want to start putting more of a backdrop and story for Bahl, just not 100% sure how I wanted to approach it...plus to satisfy my own curiosity.

[Abric]

From a World of Warcraft The Roleplaying Game; they have none... they are undead.

Though, to the debate of what undead feel.. it's always the ABSENCE of the feeling that gets them. They feel cold, but not because it's cold out - it's the absence of warmth. Warmth is realtive to what is hot, but not because they can actually feel the pain or heat of warmth; but more like a muscle memory than actual nerves.

This is usually why undead (i.e. vampires) are considered emo... everything is a shade of grey to them. This goes along with every sentient undead. They are an absence of life, and while some may not *want* that life back - they can feel the absence of it. In some undead playing circles, this is why you typically see them eating living flesh. It's not like they need it to 'live.' They eat it because it's like they are trying to take that life back into them, but of course it doesn't work in anything but an emotional sense.

To actual numbers in a DnD sense, Forsaken are immune to life draining spells, mind-affecting effects, poisons, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease and death effects. They are not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain or level drain. They are also immune to fatigue and exhaustion effects. They are healed by negative energy (i.e. Linkin Park and Tool music) and positive damage injuries them (Kenny G and Creed.)

Ever slept on your arm, and couldn't feel it? That's how undeath is supposed to feel like - without the pins and needles.

[Bahlmoral]

To actual numbers in a DnD sense, Forsaken are immune to life draining spells, mind-affecting effects, poisons, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease and death effects. They are not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain or level drain. They are also immune to fatigue and exhaustion effects. They are healed by negative energy (i.e. Linkin Park and Tool music) and positive damage injuries them (Kenny G and Creed.)

Ever slept on your arm, and couldn't feel it? That's how undeath is supposed to feel like - without the pins and needles.

I had to go back and read that again, and it was unanimous...it still confused the hell out of me. In game terms yes we're immune to Fear, Mind Control, etc... but it still find it odd that poison and bleeding effects still work on us. I guess from a game control standpoint giving immunity to two key DoT sources would be imbalanced.

Anyhow, I think that answers my question though. I was wondering if something like a temperature extreme would bother them, and it's pretty much as I assumed.

[Sinthe]

Game balance. In beta, Forsaken were labeled as Undead, and most of those things had no effect. They were changed to Humanoid for balance. They also spoke common, I beleive.

[turen]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f329/Turen/emoabric.jpg
Emo Abric Says:
"My life is like a black abyss. Its, like, the absence of feeling..."

[Jeedup]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f329/Turen/emoabric.jpg
Emo Abric Says:
"My life is like a black abyss. Its, like, the absence of feeling..."

oh....my....god...

[Abric]

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p237/NamelessJ/VilmahCrying.jpg

[Jeedup]

thats a poor retort at an obviously flawless arguement Abric.

In summary: QQ emo boy.

[turen]

If anything, saying I make him cry is even more evidence of emo-ness. Hey...its also a girl crying...


Abric...anything ya wanna share with us?

[Bahlmoral]

Holy derailment Batman we got off the original topic fast...

[Xiphus]

Being undead means you cannot feel anything. You can have a thousand javelins sticking into your corpse and you feel no pain at all. You will only keep moving as if nothing had happened.

Which is why I like roleplaying undead rogues. You can put me down today, only to see me trying to stick my daggers into your back the day after. And the day after. And the day after. Until either you die or you obliterated me. You can throw your fear spells, only to have me keep lumbering towards you as if I'm not affected. You can set me on fire and I'm still walking towards you instead of running like a chicken on fire.

All in all, having a fast-moving, very cunning undead coming at you, no matter the class, is going to freak people out.

Imagine a night elf hunter trying to shoot down an undead warrior who just keeps on intercepting him despite the many arrows sticking through his body (and his legs, which should had slowed down a normal living being).

[Qabian]

I think if a certain argument about the possibility of Forsaken giving birth holds any merit, the possibility of Forsaken sensing pain remains as well, dependent on the method of death, amount of time spent rotting, and intactness of the remaining biological systems. Of course, the likelihood that sensation would be considerably dulled is high, but if just one nerve remains intact from brain to spinal cord to sensory receptor, why couldn't it continue to be functional? Why not sense pain as well as any other sense of the environment, such as sight or smell? Application of magic that doesn't rely on physical perception could also be a source of pain or simply recognition such as temperature for the undead, perhaps. I'd think physical sensation could be a possibility, or not a possibility, depending on how you wanted to work it into your story?

[Shadowspeak]

Turen that is the best thing I have ever seen.

Ever.

[turen]

Apologies for the X-treme derailing, i couldn't resist.


I think they feel it the same way the Terminators feel it. When Ah-nuld is asked if it hurts when he is shot, he says something like "I know of the damage being done to my body. It can be called 'Pain' "

And yet, he never shows any signs of it, because he is so damn durable. Forsaken are dead, and so can survive a beating, though their bodies aren't as strong as a Terminators. So, since they can live on just as well without their arms or with a spear through their chest, they can go on, showing no signs of the pain, and yet are aware of the damage done to them in a different sort of 'pain'.

[Shadowspeak]

back on topic anyhow...

If you ever hear either Shadowspeak or Sorvius talking about scent/taste or sight, it's something completely differant than the physical sense.

[Shadowspeak]

Back on topic, yesh.

Yar, Undead means Undead. You can't feel a thing as far as feelings go. Now, if you ever hear Shadow talking about scent/sight or taste of someone, he's talking about a seperate subject than the actual sense.

[turen]

Haw Haw, Shadow double-posted! *points and laughs*

[Xiphus]

I think if a certain argument about the possibility of Forsaken giving birth holds any merit, the possibility of Forsaken sensing pain remains as well, dependent on the method of death, amount of time spent rotting, and intactness of the remaining biological systems. Of course, the likelihood that sensation would be considerably dulled is high, but if just one nerve remains intact from brain to spinal cord to sensory receptor, why couldn't it continue to be functional? Why not sense pain as well as any other sense of the environment, such as sight or smell? Application of magic that doesn't rely on physical perception could also be a source of pain or simply recognition such as temperature for the undead, perhaps. I'd think physical sensation could be a possibility, or not a possibility, depending on how you wanted to work it into your story?

I think that the Forsaken are incapable of reproducing, and thus, has to resort to forcibly recruiting parts of the Scourge to join their forces. I am sure they have methods to break the Lich King's hold over individual Scourge.

As for their locomotion, I believed the undead does not move via the means of nervous system. The Scourge moves just the way the Lich King wills it, kinda like puppets, while the Forsaken moves based on strength of will. They are, pretty much, tortured souls trapped in a rotting prison of a body. That's my opinion, anyway.

And being incapable of sensation does have its strengths, I think. From what I read from WoWwiki, the main reason why undead rogues (Deathstalkers) are considered to be the deadliest assassins around is mainly because they are undead. They can stay underwater indefinitely, they can disguise themselves as corpses (since they are corpses), they can wait forever, they are remarkably persistent and finally, they can't feel anything. Stab them over and over again and they just keep coming, unless the damage is considerable enough that the body could not possibly move, e.g. lack of limbs, complete obliteration, reduction to ashes, etc. etc.

[Bahlmoral]

back on topic anyhow...

If you ever hear either Shadowspeak or Sorvius talking about scent/taste or sight, it's something completely differant than the physical sense.

So he was licking me for sheer pleasure in UC?

[DjalliDhey]

So he was licking me for sheer pleasure in UC?

I certainly hope not..

[Cyrass]

Foresaken's nerves are all dead, despite the sounds they make, they feel no pain because their body no longer works.

Hence why, with Calleo, he would weave on his skin while he was sitting idle.

[Anaie]

A true undead would be immune to the pain and suffering, I agree, hence why I have had to work in a logic to my rp ((soon to be finished and posted)) that lets me act/feel the way I do. Also, because I hate the fact that in the aspect of balance they had to compromise what makes them undead (breathing, bleeds, poisons), I am working on a viable option in that story to rationalize the "game balance" issues.

[Redcap]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f329/Turen/emoabric.jpg
Emo Abric Says:
"My life is like a black abyss. Its, like, the absence of feeling..."

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1426/999995749_5beea64942_o.jpg

[Raziel]

But feeling senses and emotional feeling are different.

The Undead do feel emotion. THey obviously do. How else could they act out of Revenge, Curiousity, Malice, hatred, redemption, loyalty, deceit, or whatever have you?

Can they feel the world around them? Some believe they can, but this can be attributed to a psychosomatic incantation of retrospection. E.G., they remember how things used to feel when they see things, and their memory is so strong that it forces them to go through the experience even though they can't actually feel it.

It's kind of like how WhiteWolf tries to explain why Vampires have Sex without any working sexual organs. It reminds them what it felt like, and they can use that memory to "re-experience" it, even though they attain no real feeling at all.

[Sulajin]

For both the use of the nice big words with your post, and a reference to White Wolf, I officially need to change my pants in your honor.

I hate it when people dumn down the language...

[Vilmah]

dumn down the language...

Or misspell the word dumb.

[Sulajin]

Sorry, I'm only in the Cs of my nightly thesaurus masterbation. And dictionaries are too low grade for me.

[Vilmah]

So it WASN'T white out..

[Sulajin]

I may also need your atlas, if I'm feeling kinky.

(also misspelled masturbation...)

[Vilmah]

Just don't touch the encyclopedias.. those things are expensive!!

[Sulajin]

Vilmah, I have a confession to make...

Also, you may want a new display case for them.

[Fallacy]

Stop spamming my forum!

[Ninorra]

You're a moderator, not an owner. XP

But I'll stop spamming just because it's Mortica's wrath I fear.

[Darkblade]

Blizzard lets undead feel pain. Ever here one cry out after getting hit with a critical hit? Yup.
Undead != moving corpses.

Now, giving birth? Silliness, pure and simple. HOWEVER, it could be done in a "was preggers when died via plague" sort of method, giving "birth" to a rotten little baby ghoul, which would be pretty much nothing more than a helpless little pirannha that doesn't need water.

Now, all this doesn't mean that every Forsaken -has- to be able to feel physical pain. It could be argued that the sensation they're feeling is their mind making them feel the pain because that's how it would think it should feel, so even deadened nerves would allow you to "feel" pain.

Suffice to say, if you stab me in the back, I will feel it, and then I will eat your face.

[Shadowspeak]

Now, giving birth? Silliness, pure and simple. HOWEVER, it could be done in a "was preggers when died via plague" sort of method, giving "birth" to a rotten little baby ghoul, which would be pretty much nothing more than a helpless little pirannha that doesn't need water.

Or you can do what I did!

[Ninorra]

Or you can do what I did!

It's like a mini zombie family! So romantic..

[Malakim]

It's like a mini zombie family! So romantic..

Kinda reminds me of that scene in Dawn of the Dead (The remake) where the zombie chick gives birth to the zombie baby. It was kinda sexy.

[Darkblade]

Kinda reminds me of that scene in Dawn of the Dead (The remake) where the zombie chick gives birth to the zombie baby. It was kinda sexy.

Exactly! Except without the sexy...

[Malakim]

Exactly! Except without the sexy...

The sexy is the most important part.

[Raziel]

But the baby wouldn't grow. It does not go through any sort of cellular mitosis or Meiosis. It has no active Mitochondria to continue the Adenisine Tri-Phosphate Chain.

It would be in fetal form forever.

[Malakim]

Did I hear midichlorins in that?

[Xiphus]

Mitochondria: Organelles in cells that are responsible for energy production.

That's different from midichlorins which gives you the ability to use the Force.

[Malakim]

Mitochondria: Organelles in cells that are responsible for energy production.


If they don't have energy production how come so many forsaken play rogues?

[Raziel]

badum bum *psshhhh*

Wakka Wakka Wakka!

[Darkblade]

That's different from midichlorins which gives you the ability to use the Force.

I thought those were the things that kill Star Wars movies.

[Raziel]

Gosh, aren't we all just so clever today.

[Malakim]

I am always clever, I have a degree in smartassery

[Xiphus]

If they don't have energy production how come so many forsaken play rogues?

Hmmmm, maybe because they have some other ability to produce energy that is only enough for locomotion?

Honestly, I'm stumped myself. I should ask the Professor of Anatomy in Silvermoon University.

While we are at it, why do dead people walk?

[Ikameli]

I've been trying to figure out how to play an Undead for a while and I actually found a lot of this topic useful with the senses and feelings aspects.

On the Mitochondria topic though...

When you eat, your food is in too big of pieces to create energy from it. The point of digestion is to break down food to smaller sizes so Mitochondria can convert it to energy for all of your cells to use.

If cells are dead and do not split, then yes, the idea of a forsaken child growing up from infancy is a bit far-fetched.

So, if an Undead's body is rotting and dead... it does not need the food energy to move the dead muscles. Which would cause all sorts of problems in itself because the muscles would be either stiff with Rigormortis or lax without any control. =\ Rotting will release energy, but not enough to fuel cells, even if they happen to be dead cells...

Wow... there are a ton of issues with the Undead anatomy... o.O

[Anthek]

Wow... there are a ton of issues with the Undead anatomy... o.O

That's why it's magic! *waves hands around wildly*

[Islefr]

Maybe Undead physiology just works like macrocosmic physiology.

Take, for example, the star. Whenever it is first born it burns hydrogen and hyrdogen to create helium, thus creating energy through a form of nuclear fusion. As it continues in its life, it eventually runs out of hydrogen. If it has enough mass, it begins to burn the helium it created, which becomes beryllium. So on and so forth until star explosion.

Now, say that the Forsaken in question used to be a human. The zombie thingy would then have created its energy through the breakdown of cellular tissue (i.e. food). They then subsuquently died. Now, since they no longer have to produce as much energy, as they no longer need to produce body heat, their energy needs plummet dramatically. This means that any Forsaken with even a smidgeon of food in their belly could survive for quite awhile on the energy needs, because, in a living or dead host, hydrochloric acid breaks down food. If Forsaken physiology thus lets cells feed upon energy, but not reproduce (causing them to slowly wither away and rot) any food they ingest will allow them to absorb energy, while still letting them rot.

Or its magic. Take your pick.

[Swerto]

I thought those were the things that kill Star Wars movies.

hahahahaha

No, thats Jar Jar

[Islefr]

Jar Jar was...odd. He was like what happens whenever a director gets high and decides to create a new character. In all honesty though, I hated teenaged Annikin more than I hated Jar Jar, mostly because I can't understand how such an adorable little kid, who turns into the bamf that is Darth Vader, could ever, ever, become such a whiny emo-freak. *sigh* Why George? Why did you destroy Annikin so mercilessly?! *sits in a corner and cries*

[Swerto]

because its the path he follwed... anikan whined alot just like Luke

[TerokNor]

Maybe Undead physiology just works like macrocosmic physiology.

Take, for example, the star. Whenever it is first born it burns hydrogen and hyrdogen to create helium, thus creating energy through a form of nuclear fusion. As it continues in its life, it eventually runs out of hydrogen. If it has enough mass, it begins to burn the helium it created, which becomes beryllium. So on and so forth until star explosion.

Now, say that the Forsaken in question used to be a human. The zombie thingy would then have created its energy through the breakdown of cellular tissue (i.e. food). They then subsuquently died. Now, since they no longer have to produce as much energy, as they no longer need to produce body heat, their energy needs plummet dramatically. This means that any Forsaken with even a smidgeon of food in their belly could survive for quite awhile on the energy needs, because, in a living or dead host, hydrochloric acid breaks down food. If Forsaken physiology thus lets cells feed upon energy, but not reproduce (causing them to slowly wither away and rot) any food they ingest will allow them to absorb energy, while still letting them rot.

Or its magic. Take your pick.

Both your astrophysics and biology are pretty magical... :P

[Izrail]

I have been wondering about Forsaken being unable to feel. Most of the arguments are that their biology doesn't work, i.e. their nerves are not recieving and transmitting information. If their nerves aren't working, what about their dendrites and neurons? What about the electricity that has to be constantly firing in their brains to enable thought and speech? What is crossing the synaptic cleft to make thoughts and actions possible? Their nervous systems work well enough to transmit messages to move body parts, so why not to feel them?

If magic can make a dead (and thus braindead) person able to think and speak, why can't it enable physical sensation?

This is bugging me.

[Qabian]

If magic can make a dead (and thus braindead) person able to think and speak, why can't it enable physical sensation?

This is bugging me.

Easy. It can. But it doesn't have to. At least, that's what I'd say. It's magic. No reason not to accommodate both schools of thought.

[Keraph]

Think of it this way. If the Scourge could feel pain, then they wouldn't perform as well in combat. The Lich King wouldn't want that, so simple reanimation would be all that was necessary.

[Xiphus]

Think of it this way. If the Scourge could feel pain, then they wouldn't perform as well in combat. The Lich King wouldn't want that, so simple reanimation would be all that was necessary.

And that kinda worked against him in the end, ya? Now, some of them were free from his control and became Forsaken, they too can't feel pain but NOW THEY CAN THINK. I can immediately see why Batholomew (or however you spell that name) said 'what better weapon against undead than the undead themselves'.