Blood Elf lore altered?

[Thoraggar]

"At this time, the undead Scourge had essentially transformed Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas into the toxic Plaguelands. There were only a few pockets of Alliance resistance forces left. One such group, consisting primarily of high elves, was led by the last of the Sunstrider dynasty: Prince Kael'thas. Kael, an accomplished wizard himself, grew wary of the failing Alliance. The high elves grieved for the loss of their homeland and decided to call themselves blood elves in honor of their fallen people. Yet as they worked to keep the Scourge at bay, they suffered greatly at being cut off from the Sunwell that had empowered them. Desperate to find a cure for his people's racial addiction to magic, Kael did the unthinkable: he embraced his people's Highborne ancestry and joined with Illidan and his naga in hopes of finding a new magical power source upon which to feed. The remaining Alliance commanders condemned the blood elves as traitors and cast them out for good.

With no place left to go, Kael and his blood elves followed Lady Vashj to Outland to help contest the warden, Maiev, who had recaptured Illidan. With the combined naga and blood elf forces, they managed to defeat Maiev and free Illidan from her grasp. Based in Outland, Illidan gathered his forces for a second strike against the Lich King and his fortress of Icecrown"
~Blizzard Lore page
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/chapter5.html

So, according to this, Kael thought the alliance was failing, and decided to leave, and the allaince called them nasty names and kicked them out...

Didn't an Alliance commander, his name escapes me, hate them since the second war. Wern't they sent on suicide missions repeatedly, with no support, until they where helped by Lady Vashj? Then the commander called them traitors for accepting her help, imprisoned them, and condemned them to death? Then...
Vashj helps them escape, introduces him to Illidan, and they go to fight Arthas for revenge?

I'm going to have to replay this campaign but...

I've heard alot of Alliance to Blood Elves as traitors, which is all well and dandy, the populace wouldn't have ever heard about this. But is Blizzard going to just sweep this bit under the rug? A whole campaign in WC3 Expansion just ignored in revised history? Because this re-defines the Blood elf-alliance relationship to me.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, just took a WC3 break to re-zealotize my WoWing, then I found this.

[Fallacy]

I think it's just they didn't want to go into full detail about it right there. It is true that Kael'Thas's forces, which were with the remnant of Lordaeron, fighting off the Scourge, were set to be executed for allying with the naga, but they were already facing heavy discrimination and were basically sent on a suicide mission. Either way, it seemed the Alliance wanted to be rid of them simply because they were a different race.

[Aquizit]

Well, it's gray.. really.

He did embrace the old ways at the urging of Vashj, after he learned of the magical addiction. Yes, Garithos turned on Kael and the elves.. but it seemed like at the beginning of the campaign Kael was just as confused and war-weary as anyone else.

The Lore fits.. but it just leaves out Garithos. Alliance propaganda I say!

Shenanagins!

[Darkblade]

I don't think it was altered, so much as the weight of certain things is different. In the WC3 expansion, Garithos was being a dick to the Elves, yes. They also joined with Illidan because he promised them new magic sources. They reluctantly allied with the Naga before that simply to survive, due to the suicide missions Garithos sent them on.

[Malorii]

Blizzard history is like having a history teacher with a bad case of A.d.d.

[Abric]

Chris Metzen (Metzer?) is a dumb ass. You can't change your story when it has already been written... as he and his team have done several times.

Just roll with the fucking flow. This is actual one of the more negative things I have to say about Blizzard - they don't stick to their stories.

... and Warcraft 3 was a good game.

[Sanrin]

It wouldnt suprise me if blizz did change things, didnt their Loremastah guy write an offical apology about how he had to literally rewrite WoW lore to fit this expansion?

[Maegannon]

Yes he did. The original lore had draenei being nearly extinct and the orcs had slaughtered'm in like.. months. The new lore now states that it took the orcs 8 years to kill'm.

But, I don't believe they took out the part where Alliance(human) forces were raceist and tried repetedly (and unsucsessfully) to kill off the blood elves... I think they just failed to mention it..

Alliance propaganda.

"No! we loved them elves! They betrayed us on their own free will!" and all that ;p

[Fallacy]

Uh, no, it doesn't. The Draenei were almost routed in a matter of months.

[Aquizit]

Yeah.. Draenei basically slaughtered and the survivors all held out at Shattrath. Sure they held the seige for a long while.. but the society as a whole had disintegrated long before.

Think of Shattrath as the Battlestar Galactica for Draenei.

[Malakim]

I just think the funny thing is that the alliance hated the blood elves and ended up trying to kill them through suicide missions and outward hatred, but somehow had no problem inviting the night elves to join them, and aliens that can't control their space ship...

Ya we hate people we have had in our alliance for years so we tried to get them killed and we outwardly distrust most races because they are different, but screw it you night elves we have just met in the third war that only a small force of the alliance were actually willing to help, Jaina's section, ya you guys you can join us.

Ohhh, aliens from outland that is the homeworld to our most hated of enemies the orcs oh ya we hate everything that ever came from that world and when the alliance went through the dark portal in the second war we tried to kill everything and anything on the other side but screw it we like the cut of your jib squid people come on in.

I don't really understand it all, most of the races in the alliance are openly racist and hate almost everyone even amongst their own races they have in the alliance. Yet, it seems that for game purposes they were so willing to just have random races just join them for the hell of it. Because honestly if they are so unwilling to accept their own people that have died, the forsaken, then how are they so easily trusting of other races?

[Thoraggar]

Yeah, I think the Night elves joining the allaince makes less sense than the forsaken joining the horde. The Horde has had a recent history, under Thrall, of acceptiong anyone who needs help, thats how the Tauren and Dark Spear trolls joined, but with the allaince it seems night elves got the "well, better cram them in somewhere" treatment, kinda like gnomes. Only gnomes are far more crammable, lore and otherwise.

I've never played a Ally long enough, but does it seem that the humans arnt the base of the Alliance anymore anyway? The name Allaince come from the root in "The Alliance of Lorderon" if I recall, from the human kingdoms. But it seems now that the humans are clinging to the drawves for survival, along with the gnomes...only gnomes are better clingers.

[Aquizit]

I agree with Thoraggar. It's the dwarves really that are the most established anymore, and most players generally see King Magni as the big boss of the Alliance, even though Stormwind is the capital and Bolvar is the #1.


You must remember however, the key difference between the Alliance and the Horde.

The Horde is three races under one central leader, Thrall, with the Forsaken along with them under their Queen whom they serve unquestioningly. (Although the Forsaken quests in Outlands in Thrallmar seem to be much more loyal to Thrall's Horde than Sylvanus or whatever.) Even the Blood Elves seem to be open to Thrall's word (the smart ones anyway) seeing as Thrall understands the taint of an addiction.

The Alliance is multiple races, each with their OWN leader, who have banded together to oppose the Horde.. Each race has its own agenda, and as such, may not seem too collected and teamwork..y, but it's only because Thrall's Horde has one goal, to establish a home in Azeroth, and the Alliance has much more than one goal, depending on race.

[Mohan]

Thing is Malakim, I don't think it was the Alliance as a whole that hated the Blood Elves and sent them on suicide missions. It was just the one general - Garithos. Had they been under the command of someone else, they might never have needed to accept help from the naga, never been sentenced to be executed and thus never escaped to Outland to ally with Illidan.

The humans as a whole are somewhat xenophobic, but I don't think to the extent that all of them would have pushed the Blood Elves away. Garithos was just an extreme case. He's pretty much the sole reason they left.

I do agree that the Night Elves don't really fit in the Alliance all that well. The Dwaves and Gnomes do, as they've fought with the Humans before in previous wars (WC2 and WC3). The Draenei fit better than the Night Elves even, as they have such a strong connection to the Light, which has always been important to the Humans.

In any case, as far as the Blood Elf lore being altered, I think they just left Garithos out for the sake of simplicity. It's easier to explain to people who haven't played WC3. Besides, the important thing isn't why they left the Alliance, just that they did leave the Alliance.

[Daedraug]

Alliance
Humans
Dwarves
Gnomes

Cenarion Circle
Night Elves
Tauren
+1

Horde
Orcs
Undead
Trolls

Seems to me that something like this always would have made more sense.

[Fallacy]

Thirsting for vengeance despite their weakened state, the healthiest blood elves, including Kael'thas, departed their ravaged land and joined the campaign against the Scourge in Lordaeron. In the prince's absence, Lor'themar was named regent of Quel'Thalas, and Halduron Brightwing became the new ranger-general of Silvermoon. To this day, Lor'themar continues to serve as the leader of Azeroth's blood elves. He and Halduron safeguard the land while they seek a cure for their people's seemingly insatiable hunger.

When Kael'thas and his suffering people volunteered to fight the Scourge alongside Alliance resistance forces, the blood elves were met with suspicion and outright hostility, particularly from the prejudiced human Grand Marshal Garithos. Garithos assigned the blood elves increasingly difficult missions until Kael'thas was forced to accept the assistance of Lady Vashj and her naga. When Garithos discovered that the blood elves were working with the naga, he felt that his distrust had been vindicated. He imprisoned the hapless blood elf soldiers in the dungeons of Dalaran and sentenced them to death.

Fortunately Vashj arrived in time to free the blood elves, who were suffering terribly from their hunger for magic by this time. Vashj explained that the naga, too, were addicted to magic, and she said that Illidan could help the blood elves. She then led them to the portal that Kel'Thuzad had opened during the Third War (so as to give Archimonde entry into Azeroth). With no other palatable choices, Kael'thas and his fighters followed the naga through the portal and into the shattered realm of Outland. There, the elves freed the renegade demon Illidan Stormrage, who had been taken prisoner by Warden Maiev Shadowsong.

After the rescue, Kael'thas beseeched Illidan for a cure to the blood elves' addiction to magic. Illidan had a different proposal in mind, though: in return for the blood elves' loyalty, he would teach them to drain magic from powerful alternative sources, including demons. It was an offer Kael'thas felt he had to accept. He was certain his people would die without either a cure or a new source of magic. Kael'thas pledged his allegiance to Illidan, who taught several blood elves the techniques he had offered. These teachings spread to the other blood elves in Outland, who were then able to stave off their painful hunger for arcane magic.

Taken from the Encyclopedia, thought it might clear some things up. I suggest reading the whole article.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/encyclopedia/338.xml

[Sanrin]

Druids vs THE WORLD! I approve.

[Kaliera]

You poor saps wouldn't have access to moonfire. I pity all who would oppose us.

[Chikt]

Alliance
Humans
Dwarves
Gnomes

Cenarion Circle
Night Elves
Tauren
+1

Horde
Orcs
Undead
Trolls


Problem I see with this is by Tauren lore, they clashed with the Night Elves a lot on several occasions. Yes, they have the Cenarion Circle, but such a minimal ammount of both Tauren and Night Elves actually join or work with the Cenarion Circle BECAUSE of said clashing. The Night Elves consider themselves the "True" druids, and Tauren as a lesser species, so to speak.

The Night Elves, really, should be more in a faction of their own. The Tauren loyalties to Thrall is much more than that to the Cenarion Circle, and it was the Tauren that bought the Forsaken into the Horde to search for a cure to their "ailment". Though it appears strings were pulled by the Grimtotem in that respect to get fringe groups of the Forsaken to work on destroying everything in Kalimdor but the Grimtotem allied Tauren.

When I played a human rogue though, it didn't really take long for it to become apparent that the only really true "Alliance" is that of the Humans with the Dwarves, and the Dwarves with the Gnomes. Humans and Dwarves were allied a long time ago out of necessity and have a lot of respect for eachother in most cases, while the Dwarves and the Gnomes have a lot in common with technology and living style.

That being said, the Night Elves being in the Alliance just makes no sense at all. They hate Magic, and the Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes use it a whole lot. Night Elves look down on Humans, see Dwarves as disgusting and Gnomes as pathetic tech-heads. The Forsaken shows more respect to the Orcs than the Night Elves show to any of the races really. I don't know if this changes or improves much like the Forsaken warming up to the Horde in Outland, but by level 60 on my Human Rogue, my hatred of Night Elves really was set in stone.

The Draenei and Blood Elves... I don't know. In my mind, it would have made more sense if the Blood Elves joined the Alliance again. It doesn't seem likely that the actions of one general would stop the Alliance leaders trying to contact the Blood Elves to re-establish connections. Considering how the Blood Elves seem to be in a civil war by the time they arrive in Outland, it definately would make a lot more sense. The Blood Elves loyalty to the Horde is questionable, to say the least. And I can see a lot of the Blood Elves leaving into Outland simply joining Kael'thas. Where as if they were allied with the Alliance, they would be drastically against such actions.

And then the Draenei. Crash-land on a planet far, far away from their home and find themselves lost and confused. Were the Night Elves not the first ones to get to them, and they instead saw a new, peaceful race of Orcs just trying to make their way in the world, it would have been a different matter. In fact, given the Night Elves attitude towards magic and knowledge of the Eredar, it suprises me they didn't instead go to the Alliance, tell them of an Eredar Invasion and wipe out all the Draenei instead of this "Oh! You're not corrupted! Okay! Welcome aboard" stupidity.

The thing I found most amusing when I was playing on my Rogue was the fact that the Night Elves had this one paticular quest in the Stonetalon Mountains to kill Wyverns and prevent the Horde from gaining and using the poison from them. It was amusing because of the way it was put, it sounded more like the Horde was capturing the Wyverns to train as Wind-Riders, rather than harvesting some sort of poison to use in some sort of covert operation against the Night Elves.

And god. Don't even get me started on the Night Elves attitude towards the logging camp in Ashenvale.

[Fallacy]

The Draenei and Blood Elves... I don't know. In my mind, it would have made more sense if the Blood Elves joined the Alliance again. It doesn't seem likely that the actions of one general would stop the Alliance leaders trying to contact the Blood Elves to re-establish connections. Considering how the Blood Elves seem to be in a civil war by the time they arrive in Outland, it definately would make a lot more sense. The Blood Elves loyalty to the Horde is questionable, to say the least. And I can see a lot of the Blood Elves leaving into Outland simply joining Kael'thas. Where as if they were allied with the Alliance, they would be drastically against such actions.

Not quite right.

"On several occasions after the Sunwell's defilement, Kael'thas publicly asserted that his people would die unless they found a new source of magic. There can be no doubt that withdrawal from prolonged exposure to arcane magic is a very unpleasant process: to this day it is not impossible that a high elf might choose to give in to the addiction and become one of the blood elves. Technically, though, the prince was mistaken. According to the top priests and medics on Azeroth, the only high elves who perished due to the Sunwell's loss were the very old, the very young, and elves who were already in poor health.

This is not to say, however, that withdrawal from magic would leave the blood elves unharmed. On the contrary, permanent mental or physical damage is possible.

Even so, the prince's relatively quick acceptance of dire measures (e.g., draining magic from demons) is by no means characteristic of blood elves in general. The blood elves of Outland have by now discovered Kael'thas' agreement with Illidan, and they have for the most part become convinced of its necessity. Most blood elves still live on Azeroth, though. Few of these elves know of Kael'thas' pact with Illidan, and many would be horrified if they discovered it. Draining magic from small mana-bearing vermin is a far cry from draining magic from demons. Yet, as their hunger grows, blood elves--particularly those in Outland--are becoming increasingly inured to the things they must do in order to obtain more magic."

Also taken from the Encyclopedia. It also mentions right below that the heavy difference in population of blood elves in Azeroth, being at 85% of the total population, compared to the 15% only in Outland. Kael'thas's forces wouldn't stand a chance against the combined might of the Scryers and the main body of blood elves.

[Fallacy]

Little bit more on the relations between the Alliance and Quel'Thelas. I'm not going to go with "what if" situations; we can come up with whatever we want, but I'm more concerned with the canon lore.

The Night Elves are a major part of the Alliance. They compromise nearly all of the Alliance forces on Kalimdor (I'm not considering Theramoore as heavily connected to the Alliance, it actually has better relations with Orgrimmar than any of the other nations). Even though Kael'thas helped Tyrande and Maiev while hunting down Illidan (ironic, isn't it?), there's no way they'd accept them as allies, simply because of their magic. No other race is heavily dependent on magic then the blood elves, the gnomes and humans don't even come close.

Stormwind may have not been responsible directly for Garithos's actions, but they certainly recieved reports of the incidents (most likely heavily biased to make the blood elves out to be traitors, given their source), so they were well aware of the situation. It would only have spread the prejudice throughout the rest of the Alliance. Granted, the only race that treated the blood elves comfortably was the dwarves, strangely enough.

Despite all this, the blood elves DID try to open up relations with the Alliance, as I've mentioned before, but it turns out horribly. They end up getting tricked, betrayed, and sabotaged. An early quest has you killing a dwarven spy who was relaying coordinates and building designs to a Kaldorei strike force.

The blood elves also never truly showed interest in joining the Horde. It was Sylvanas that kept pushing both them and Thrall in that direction. The blood elves ended up having no other choice, since they were heavily outnumbered against the remaining Scourge, and the Alliance offered no help at all (in fact, they even worsened it).

[Malorii]

"but somehow had no problem inviting the night elves to join them, and aliens that can't control their space ship..."


Kaldo'rei females dancing next to mailboxes was a big factor on this .. not to mention the Dranei females are kinda out there to "YES their REAL ... and they can cut glass.. "


I'm still pissed about the dance the belf females got jipped out of .. The friggin' twist from pulp fiction to .... The toxic dance. JOY!

[Chikt]

Also taken from the Encyclopedia. It also mentions right below that the heavy difference in population of blood elves in Azeroth, being at 85% of the total population, compared to the 15% only in Outland. Kael'thas's forces wouldn't stand a chance against the combined might of the Scryers and the main body of blood elves.

Yes, but how many of the ones in Azeroth, given circumstance, that learnt of Kael'thas and his actions, would take the side of the Horde or the side of Kael? In Silvermoon, he's basically treated like some sort of god or hero of legend, and it's not until you get to Outland and complete quests for the Scyer/Aldor do you learn that the whole reason he told the Blood Elves on Azeroth to come to Outland was to turn the willing into soldiers, and the unwilling into slaves.

However, the Blood Elves on Azeroth already seem to be tapping into some form of demonic magic. I mean, heck, they're tapping into the very magic from a Naaru. And as we see in Silvermoon, there are those that oppose it, but many Blood Elves consider the actions as necessary for survival. This is my point. If/When the Blood Elves on Azeroth learn of Kael'thas plans, the Blood Elves will enter a period of civil war-Pro Demonic versus otherwise-and Kael'thas forces will have the perfect chance to strike and take charge.

I mean, in outland, those same cracks are already beggining to show. The Scryers are made up of ex-Kael'Thas forces and likely a lot of Blood Elves from Azeroth that learnt and disagreed with the actions, but who is to say how many Blood Elves enter Outland and actually join Kael'thas? The way his actions are treated in Silvermoon is like that of legend, hence the city's celebrations when they heard from him. And given what lengths the leaders will go to in order to silence those that are against Kael ((The little mind-control event in the City districts)) a civil war seems more imminent than possible.

[Icia]

First off, regarding the Night Elves.
I've done a lot of Darnassus quests as well as quests that involve Night Elf areas, and it's rare to find a Night Elf that truly looks down upon the other races so outwardly. As the Night Elves have been a solitary race for so long, it's expected that their general relations won't be nearly as friendly as the alliance between the dwarves and humans, but I've not seen the Night Elves as a whole appear to think they are actually that much better than everyone else.
It makes sense that they would join in the fight against the Burning Legion, and it makes sense that it would be the Alliance rather than the Horde. As Grom Hellscream's forces were the ones who killed Cenarius, it makes sense that the Night Elves still have a grudge against the Orcs, and all the Orc-hating humans can certainly relate to that.


The things I never understood from the beginning is the Tauren druids, and anyone besides Forsaken (and Blood Elves now) being warlocks. It seems like they had to stretch a lot to make those work in the lore, and in my opinion, it would have made more sense if they reworked both classes a bit to balance them properly, and make them also faction-specific.

The more I discover about the Blood Elves, the less sense it makes. I guess what gets me is that the whole feel to the Blood Elf lore seems to be very very linear, which I never felt from the other areas. Even with the Alliance killing Van Cleef over and over again, I've never felt like those quests had nearly the impact on the global story that the beginning Blood Elf quests did. Starting with the low-level quests being "pre-horde" days, going on to discovering that Kael'Thas is not the hero and great leader that they wanted him to be.. These things should have caused a huge change in attitude with the Blood Elves.. Almost like this story should have been told in a single-player game, rather than a large online game.

[Malorii]

The blood elf history regarding that reminds me a bit of the Book 1984 o_O..

[Kallindra]

Most of the starting Blood Elf quests tend to deal with the continuing threat of being pushed against the Plaguelands and having the Dead Scar run through the heart of their lands. It makes sense, to me at least, that the leaders of Silvermoon are focused on the protection of their city and ensuring that their people survive on Azeroth.

I don't believe it's known if the leaders in Silvermoon are aware of what Kael has truly been up to, or if they just know that he went into Outlands to find a new "cure" for their addiction. Also, if they know that he has made deals, do they actually condone the actions, thinking that it is for the betterment of the people?

I find it actually somewhat suiting that the low level Blood Elf Quests through the 20s focus more on the undead threat and ignore the political side of things. It brings a sense of realism to the picture. Afterall, you are only starting on your heroic journey.

Finding out that the Prince of your own kingdom has utterly betrayed his people to further only his own power is something for the truly epic heros to be dealing with. You don't really start seeing these things until you are almost at the level cap and certain to be of some reknown amongst your people and allies. This is a task suited for those heroes as they are the most prepared to handle the deceit and do what ultimately must be done.

The wonderful thing about being on a RP realm is that you can then mold what your more epic hero has learned and try to spread the word to those who should know. It could become a very global encompassing storyline for Azeroth if approached correctly.

[Icia]

Most of the starting Blood Elf quests tend to deal with the continuing threat of being pushed against the Plaguelands and having the Dead Scar run through the heart of their lands. It makes sense, to me at least, that the leaders of Silvermoon are focused on the protection of their city and ensuring that their people survive on Azeroth.But that's not what I saw in those quests. There was one quest that talked about how they couldn't heal the land, and they had no choice but to just get out of there.


I don't believe it's known if the leaders in Silvermoon are aware of what Kael has truly been up to, or if they just know that he went into Outlands to find a new "cure" for their addiction. Also, if they know that he has made deals, do they actually condone the actions, thinking that it is for the betterment of the people?That much I agree with. I don't think they really understand, but it seems like with all the Horde expeditions to Outland, someone would have told them what happened, which would mean either the Blood Elves renounce their loyalty to Kael'Thas, or the Horde renounce their alliance with the Blood Elves (At least I would hope the Horde would be smart enough to do so. They can't seriously be that naive)


I find it actually somewhat suiting that the low level Blood Elf Quests through the 20s focus more on the undead threat and ignore the political side of things. It brings a sense of realism to the picture. After all, you are only starting on your heroic journey.But there was a lot of mention of the politics, and how they wanted to use the Horde to get to Outland. They all say that they are not looking to heal anything. They just want to get out, because there's nothing positive left for them anymore.


Finding out that the Prince of your own kingdom has utterly betrayed his people to further only his own power is something for the truly epic heros to be dealing with. You don't really start seeing these things until you are almost at the level cap and certain to be of some reknown amongst your people and allies. This is a task suited for those heroes as they are the most prepared to handle the deceit and do what ultimately must be done.I try to liken the whole situation to that of Lady Katrana Prestor. Sure, when you discover that she's actually Onyxia, she respawns and you have to pretend like you respect her presence there in Stormwind Keep again. But at least that's as far as you have to go. This discovery doesn't shake the entire belief system and main goal of the whole human nation. This sort of discovery really would. It would mean that the Blood Elves' main goal of migrating to Outland is no longer a good idea. Wouldn't you agree?

[Fallacy]

The fact that blood elves can take place in the killing of Kael'thas in Tempest Keep should show where the allegiances lie (especially since the Firewing and Sunfury are also hostile to them).

[Icia]

The fact that blood elves can take place in the killing of Kael'thas in Tempest Keep should show where the allegiances lie (especially since the Firewing and Sunfury are also hostile to them).That's what I'm trying to say. It doesn't make sense when the leaders of Silvermoon still proclaim their loyalty to Kael'Thas, and no longer care about healing the land in Quel'Thalas.

[Kallindra]

Icia:

I personally see at low levels when they are mentioning the "politics" of alliances and what is really going on in more a passing fashion. You really aren't of any level to effect that state. I think our perspectives of things are just different in that regard. It would be hard not to mention any politics in a game built on that very foundation to a degree, for what are nations of people but political entities.

I liken the political situation early on to you being an enlisted personal in the armed forces. You may have your notions of what the political agendas are, but you really aren't a major deciding force in those political games. You are but a pawn to the grander schemes. As you level and gain experience, you are slowly let more and more into the political schemes until such time that you are privvy to the more classified documents and plans.

I will agree that alerting the people to Kael's betrayel would bring forth a huge upheavel in their society. As Blood Elves do not seem to me to be a race of dumb people, I would believe it is very likely that word has gotten back to the leaqders of Silvermoon of what Kael has been up to in Outlands. Whether or not they agree with him, we don't know. I believe that they are likely playing both sides, the Horde leaders and very likely Kael. I believe they are keeping this secret to all but their most trusted advisors as to keep that very unrest from happening in their city.

[Icia]

I personally see at low levels when they are mentioning the "politics" of alliances and what is really going on in more a passing fashion. You really aren't of any level to effect that state. I think our perspectives of things are just different in that regard. It would be hard not to mention any politics in a game built on that very foundation to a degree, for what are nations of people but political entities.

I liken the political situation early on to you being an enlisted personal in the armed forces. You may have your notions of what the political agendas are, but you really aren't a major deciding force in those political games. You are but a pawn to the grander schemes. As you level and gain experience, you are slowly let more and more into the political schemes until such time that you are privvy to the more classified documents and plans.Except this idea is completely blown away by the Dar'Khan Drathir quest line. After you kill him, you are sent to Sylvanas, and finally Thrall, to ensure that the Blood Elves are accepted as members of the Horde, very much because of your feats, including killing the Ironforge spy, and the traitor Dar'Khan. You take on a very prominent role in the whole thing.

[Kallindra]

Again, I feel it's a matter of perspective.

Becoming a hero in a storyline and being sent as a servant of good faith to an alliance of nations doesn't mean that you are anything more than a pawn yet. You may have had a prominent role in that part of the tale, marking you as a hero, but you certainly aren't entrenched so politically as to be able to assess whether or not Kael is a blood traitor to his people.

Again, to use a military analogy, you may have performed honorably and above expectations in a battle for the armed forces. You have been given awards and commendations, and you were even sent to the President/Prime Minister as part of these commendations. That doesn't mean that you suddenly are more politically involved in the true politics that are ongoing. You may be getting larger insights now, but you aren't involved and are certainly not a trusted general or advisor.

Again, that's how I perceive the events to unfold.

[Thoraggar]

If I recall the Dar'Khan to Sylvanis to Thrall quests, don't you only get the epic treatment right until you tell Thrall about how epic you are, and he laughs and says "glad you can deal with your own minor problems" ?

That, or this could be the BE version of the Shadow Counsil quest horde does in durotar and RFC. Those quests seemed to be big news.

[Icia]

If I recall the Dar'Khan to Sylvanis to Thrall quests, don't you only get the epic treatment right until you tell Thrall about how epic you are, and he laughs and says "glad you can deal with your own minor problems" ?I can't find the quest name, or text to go with it to double check, but I remember being confused by his reaction and having to reread it.

Before he reads the letter, Thrall treats you like you're kind of pestering him. But after he reads it, he realizes that the Blood Elves need the Horde, and that your accomplishments proved that the Blood Elves deserve a place there.

I could be mistaken on this, but that's how I remember coming away from that quest line.

[Tirdisar]

I can't find the quest name, or text to go with it to double check, but I remember being confused by his reaction and having to reread it.

Before he reads the letter, Thrall treats you like you're kind of pestering him. But after he reads it, he realizes that the Blood Elves need the Horde, and that your accomplishments proved that the Blood Elves deserve a place there.

I could be mistaken on this, but that's how I remember coming away from that quest line.

It's a letter from Sylvanas that you deliver to Thrall, giving her further recommendation due to Dar'Khan being slain. It might not have seemed like it from the quest, but he was a vital part in the destruction of the Sunwell and most of Quel'Thelas.

But I don't believe that any of our characters will ever have a singular effect on the lore, roleplayers or otherwise. Quest lines and raid encounters are too linear for us to have an impact.

EDIT: And I forgot I'm still logged on Tir.

[Qabian]

/point Rommath (http://www.wowwiki.com/Rommath)

There are higher ups in Silvermoon making sure everything stays calm and keeping the Azerothian Blood Elf faith in Kael, although the completeness of Rommath's knowledge is also in question.

Haven't seen the Horde Outlands quests yet myself, but I fully intend to develop Qabian's own concept of what happened when I do. Until then, I plan to just go with the flow. If someone tells him Kael's being a bad boy in space, he'll either laugh at them or shrug it off until he becomes personally involved.

Garithos was still a giant jerkface.

Oh, and here's that quest text:


(Thrall begins to read the letter.)

Sylvanas is a persistent one. So she's sent one of Silvermoon's own champions... how does this change anything?

==

Your people suffered a great betrayal by the Alliance. You've succeeded in fending off Darnassian attacks as well as spies from Ironforge. Now you've defeated a powerful Scourge leader at the footsteps of your home. Your worthiness is no longer in question.

It is now apparent that you need us and we need you. Return to Lor'themar. Tell him I received his message loud and clear.

(The warchief crushes the letter inside his palm.)

Welcome to the Horde, elf.

[Okhu]

The things I never understood from the beginning is the Tauren druids, and anyone besides Forsaken (and Blood Elves now) being warlocks. It seems like they had to stretch a lot to make those work in the lore, and in my opinion, it would have made more sense if they reworked both classes a bit to balance them properly, and make them also faction-specific.



Orks being warlocks still doesn't make sense?...maybe some of the orcs still like the whole...subverting demons to do your bidding thing....makes complete sense. Not everyone is going to become all happy peachy shamanistic again...

[Skafloc]

/point Rommath (http://www.wowwiki.com/Rommath)

There are higher ups in Silvermoon making sure everything stays calm and keeping the Azerothian Blood Elf faith in Kael, although the completeness of Rommath's knowledge is also in question.

Haven't seen the Horde Outlands quests yet myself, but I fully intend to develop Qabian's own concept of what happened when I do. Until then, I plan to just go with the flow. If someone tells him Kael's being a bad boy in space, he'll either laugh at them or shrug it off until he becomes personally involved.



Yeah, thats actually pivotal to what Skafloc is presently role playing in game. He has seen the "truth" and has learned of even greater treachery, that Kael'thas could have restored the Sunwell already, but chose instead to nurture this addiction to fel energies instead.

That much fel energy must have long term effects of corruption. Basically he is slowly turning them demonic. Ultimately the Burning Legion must be behnd it.

( ( Excerpt from Wikipedia's Kael'thas entry:


As the last known surviving member of the Sunstrider dynasty, Kael has a right to the crown of the High Elves but has yet to take it. Instead, Kael styles himself as the "Blood Mage Lord of the Blood Elves." He is proficient in siphoning magical energies from demons to feed his addiction to magic and has taught his brethren to do the same. He was somehow able to salvage the skull of his father, Anasterian, from the ruins of Quel'thalas and enshrines it in Tempest Keep, his citadel in Outland. The skull is, ironically, one of the artifacts that the Red and Green Dragons would need to restore the Sunwell. ))

I am playing it as if the stewards of the Sin'Dorei must have an idea what is going on and are either too trapped and fearful to do anything or are in full compliance. The general populace are being fed steady propaganda and as was mentioned hail Kael as a savior with religous zeal.

Skafloc sees civil war as imminent.

[Qabian]

Thread necromancy with a purpose.

Linking this Blood Elf RP Guide (http://www.wowblues.com/eu/guide-to-roleplaying-a-blood-elf-296520741.html) (that I saw courtesy of Xiphus here) to explain some of my reactions, because it has come up about 100 times with a dozen different people this week. (Slight exaggeration.)

Magisters own Silvermoon. Sorry Blood Knights. Whatever you're doing, it's not what the Mages have been running for 9000 years. Dath'remar and Kael'thas are mages. Anasterian I'm not as sure on, but it's a pretty safe bet he was a mage like everyone else in political power. Heck, even Sylvanas (http://www.wowwiki.com/Sylvanas_Windrunner) who everyone knows is a ranger has mage points apparently. Military's another thing, I suppose, but even then, the military's directions are most likely gonna be dictated by the Magisters (Rommath) + Lor'themar.

And Blood Knights are generally going to be getting shunned like warlocks do among other races. Yeah, the Magisters are probably putting them to use, but I doubt they're going to be allowed to run much, at least not with any degree of freedom. There's a reason Astalor Bloodsworn is always hanging around Liadrin, hm?

And people playing High Elves and insisting they are Horde and not Alliance are going to get laughed at so hard by Q.

I'm not saying any of that RP is wrong. Run with it, and have fun with it! That's the name of the game. But there are definitely some things that should be considered that just aren't being thought of, and if anybody is feeling hard up because of my responses, sorry, but there are some pretty solid reasons why Q reacts the way he does.

[Fallacy]

I agree with you, Q. Quel'Thelas has been a sort of a magocracy because of them being direct descendents of last major group of the Highborne, who were exiled from Kalimdor only because they refused to give up magic.

Although, I don't agree with how that guide downplays the Farstriders. They are the driving force for the military operations for the blood elves, being the leaders and commanders from behind the front lines, especially since every Ranger-General has come from them. They work closely with the Blood Knights, but that group is far too small and new to hold the same amount of power as the rangers or mages do.

[Qabian]

I agree with you, Q. Quel'Thelas has been a sort of a magocracy because of them being direct descendents of last major group of the Highborne, who were exiled from Kalimdor only because they refused to give up magic.

Although, I don't agree with how that guide downplays the Farstriders. They are the driving force for the military operations for the blood elves, being the leaders and commanders from behind the front lines, especially since every Ranger-General has come from them. They work closely with the Blood Knights, but that group is far too small and new to hold the same amount of power as the rangers or mages do.

That and they blew a huge chunk out of the continent, so it was time to find a new pond for their little stolen piece of the Well, heh.

I think the guide downplays the Farstriders just because of the way the NPCs seem to be currently set up in Silvermoon. And I think that situation might be the way it is partially because of the idea that the Farstriders would have been on the front lines of the invasion, so were that much more likely to get mowed down by the Scourge, so they probably don't have the relative numbers in comparison to mages who may have been more internally pre-occupied and had better chances to make it out alive. So it could be a simple relative percentage-based numerical reduction in status.

And the city was reconstructed by mages, as it was originally constructed by mages, and just based on the NPC emotes going around and the general NPC populace, it's pretty obvious that the Magisters have things pretty well locked in the way they want it.

However, in contrast to what I said up there, Lor'themar is distinctly not a mage, and I think he sits where he does a lot because of the fact that he was Sylvanas' second. And Halduron as Ranger-General is standing up there with Rommath as well, so the Rangers definitely hold their place. I think the guide writer might have been right that it just isn't what it was, though. Still, Sylvanas and all the Forsaken will likely pull Farstrider weight rather than Magister weight.

Because of the Farstrider history and such, in terms of my RP, I am definitely far more likely to take crap from a hunter pulling the Farstrider card than any Blood Knight of any sort ever. But for some reason, it's always Blood Knights giving me crap, ha! Heck, even a Blood Knight pulling the Farstrider card would make sense, but usually all I get is Blood Knights pulling Blood Knight, which Q is not likely to have any respect for in and of itself, or going by Liadrin, who was a Priest until recently, so pull the Priest card then, or bring Bloodsworn into it. That works, too.

[Fallacy]

True, but it wasn't just the Farstriders that suffered. With the loss of the Sunwell, the magisters did lose a good deal of power (maybe not politically, but in terms of magical prowess). I believe it has more to do with Kael'thas's influence more than anything else, and that's being taken down piece by piece as more blood elves venture into Outland and discover the truth from the Scryers and for themselves.

[Qabian]

Also true, but in terms of rebuilding, and the new power source through siphoning, and the NPCs, and good ol' simple politics re: Kael'thas and history, I'd still say the Magisters seem pretty solidly on top at least within the city itself. Probably not so much in terms of external relations. The Farstriders definitely should not be discounted, but they don't seem to be running much of the show in terms of the current internal state of things.

It's hard to tell, too, in a stationary world where the status quo that should be degenerating into total chaos as people learn the truth is being artificially maintained.

[Fallacy]

You could call the events going on in Outland between the Scryers and Kael's forces a civil war, while the vast majority of blood elves going against the former prince. It's possible that it could extend into Quel'Thelas in the future.

[Qabian]

Absolutely, and I called it that just yesterday at one point. The civil war is already happening. It's just happening in Outland instead of Silvermoon, and it's being kept firmly under wraps within the city itself, although it seems the only reasons being offered for why it's being hushed up are entirely speculation: Do the leaders actually know all the details? How much do they know? Do they even know as much as the player characters and the Scryers? I've just been assuming that it's being kept under wraps for the safety and control of the citizens for the moment, and to ease developing relationships with the Horde, since internal chaos would really throw a wrench in any of that at this early stage. And as Q, knowing what's going on to the point of witnessing Kael's message to First Legion, heh, he's playing the Magisters' game when it comes to the city, and doing what he needs to do in Outland when he's there.

If the internal war does get brought back into Quel'thalas, that'll be a pretty major paradigm shift in an already existing Blizzard location, which I don't think they've ever done before? The base quest lines for starting Blood Elves would probably need to change to incorporate the open acknowledgment of the conflict. It'd be awesome to see how things would change at that point.

[Abric]

Ever think of the prisoner at the front of the gates? Does he do something?

Or is it a conspiracy?

C.o.n... spiracy!

[Sulajin]

If there's one thing I've learned it's that Blizzard doesn't take their lore half as seriously as the players do.

[Ninorra]

*waves her little warlock flag*

[Qabian]

What, Jero'me? Or the smelly Wretched thing in Falconwing? Wowhead says Jero'me is just Blizz being dorks.

I mean, it's quite clearly all a conspiracy. It's Silvermoon. What isn't a conspiracy?


*waves her little warlock flag*

And you. Get a real job. Bwahaha!

[Ninorra]

I'm not a conspiracy.. >.>

[Qabian]

Of course not. A baby-saving pink-note singing warlock is perfectly legitimate in every way.

[Xiphus]

A civil war eh? That is good for business. Contract killers like Xiphus are going to thrive when there is a war going on, because everybody wants to hire a person they can claim to have no knowledge of them to achieve their ends. Xiphus was right to say, "Outland is a realm of opportunities."

But yeah, I have to agree, in Silvermoon, the government is run by a magocracy. Last time I was there, the place reminds me of V for Vendetta's Norsefire government. I mean, silencing the opposers, how the Guardians say, "Happiness is mandatory" and detaining of rogue factors.

And yeah, rogues in Silvermoon are having the short end of the stick. While rogues in Undercity and rogues in Orgrimmar have their own affiliation and their own official intelligence agency (both Deathstalkers and Shattered Hand respectively), the rogues and their contribution in Silvermoon are never acknowledged, both officially and unofficially. Hell, unlike the Orcs, Trolls and Forsaken rogues whose base of operations are bare for all to see, as though as a pride of the Horde (Lookie here, we have a full-fledged Intelligence Agency and numerous cadres of assassins to do our dirty work!), the Blood Elven rogues only have one small corner to call their own. They even asked, "Are you sure you are not being followed?" Such questions were never asked by the Orc/Troll/Forsaken rogues, showing a contrast of social standing of rogues in Silvermoon compared to the other Horde societies.

[Raziel]

Yes he did. The original lore had draenei being nearly extinct and the orcs had slaughtered'm in like.. months. The new lore now states that it took the orcs 8 years to kill'm.

But, I don't believe they took out the part where Alliance(human) forces were raceist and tried repetedly (and unsucsessfully) to kill off the blood elves... I think they just failed to mention it..

Alliance propaganda.

"No! we loved them elves! They betrayed us on their own free will!" and all that ;p

The original Lore had Draenei = Broken and Eredar = Eredar
Now it's Broken = Draenei = Eredar

They're all fucking demons to me now.

[Raziel]

It makes sense that they would join in the fight against the Burning Legion, and it makes sense that it would be the Alliance rather than the Horde. As Grom Hellscream's forces were the ones who killed Cenarius, it makes sense that the Night Elves still have a grudge against the Orcs, and all the Orc-hating humans can certainly relate to that.

Oooh, you mean the timethe Warsong Clan was harvesting lumber to build Orgrimmar so the Night Elves decided, "Hey, look at those guys. They look just like Broxigar, that Orc who was the Hero of the War of the Ancients and the only creature to ever scar Sargeras. Let's just go on over and KILL THOSE FUCKERS FOR NO GODDAMNED REASON!"

----------------15 minutes later------------------

"OOOH FUCK WHERE'S MY ARM!? GET CENARIUS YOU STUPID BITCH!"

---------------20 minutes later--------------------

"ROT IN HELL GREENSKINZ!"

---------------10 minutes later-------------------

"OOOH SNAP CENARIUS IS DEA---*urk*"

[Xiphus]

Oooh, you mean the timethe Warsong Clan was harvesting lumber to build Orgrimmar so the Night Elves decided, "Hey, look at those guys. They look just like Broxigar, that Orc who was the Hero of the War of the Ancients and the only creature to ever scar Sargeras. Let's just go on over and KILL THOSE FUCKERS FOR NO GODDAMNED REASON!"

----------------15 minutes later------------------

"OOOH FUCK WHERE'S MY ARM!? GET CENARIUS YOU STUPID BITCH!"

---------------20 minutes later--------------------

"ROT IN HELL GREENSKINZ!"

---------------10 minutes later-------------------

"OOOH SNAP CENARIUS IS DEA---*urk*"

Honestly, the actions of one orc cannot speak for all orcs. Probably they see the Warsong Clan harvest lumber, go "OMG, they are destroying our forest!" and go 'Treehugger Mode'. Yeah, Broxigar is a hero, and he is an orc. But not every orc is Broxigar. So, the elves know Broxigar, and they know the orcs, but that doesn't excuse the orcs from chopping down their beloved forest.

Imagine, I walk into your neighborhood and start setting all your lawns ablaze. You won't care if I was a hero or anything, you are going to rip out the pitchfork. Me intruding into your neighborhood and start burning your lawn is reason enough for you and your neighbours to want to stick pitchforks into my body.

[Villayna]

such a timely thread necromancy.

Almost like I planned it.

/smiles enigmatically

[Roth'rili]

On Q's theory of the civil war coming to the lands I need to bring this up. I'm sure some people might know that the Sunwell Plateau is going to be the next (maybe last) 25man before WOTLK comes out. I swear I read it in a atricle or in a gaming magazine but its going to be happening off the shores of Quel'thalas I believe. Kael's message after downing him in the keep coming full circle as he tries to some Kil'jadean (sp?) using the sunwell's power (however he goes about doing that).

Now if he does this so close to the city it be odd if silvermoon remains unchanged. It be a hard thing to hide the sudden flux of power off the shores, prince summoning one of the strongest demon lords to Azeroth so forth. It will be interesting I just feel like it be to hard of a thing to cover up to the population of Silvermoon since its not out at another world but right off the coast. I don't know brings up thoughts, what do you guys think when the sunwell plat opens up?

[Qabian]

Now if he does this so close to the city it be odd if silvermoon remains unchanged. It be a hard thing to hide the sudden flux of power off the shores, prince summoning one of the strongest demon lords to Azeroth so forth. It will be interesting I just feel like it be to hard of a thing to cover up to the population of Silvermoon since its not out at another world but right off the coast. I don't know brings up thoughts, what do you guys think when the sunwell plat opens up?

I figure if they're gonna change things any time soon, that's when they'll do it.

But I also think they could pretty easily just keep what they're doing, provided access to the Plateau itself is highly restricted to people who already know what's going on. Like if there's a giant bubble out where the Plateau would be, or some kind of portal thing that looks intimidating, so all the little Blood Elf juniors are like "Oooh, what's that? Maybe we'll find out someday," then nothing really has to change, and I've assumed that's what Blizz will go with.

And I doubt they're gonna rework TK much, especially since Kael is already "Haha, sorry, try again. Better luck next time." But if they do incorporate some serious changes to go along with the new instance, rather than continuing to hide things behind fancy looking curtains, that would be pretty awesome.

And if Mortica planned this thread necromancy, I'm scared she may be living in my head. *cough*

[Keraph]

My paladin's guild, the Order of Eversong, has been finding ways to cope with the inconsistencies in Silvermoon due to the nature of our RP. Dracovisca, the leader of the guild, spends much of his time recruiting in the Ghostlands, speaking of Kael's betrayal, showing what evidence he can, then asking young Blood Elves to join him before they walk down a darker path. Now of course most of his audience sees him as a madman bordering on treason, but we do get a steady number of recruits who believe the truth.

As sort of a "freedom fighter" organization, we look at the magesterial leadership of Silvermoon as corrupt. Even though most of our guild hasn't even been to Outland, we're reacting to the situation knowing the whole truth. Draco has had a few events where he brought a few of us to Shattrath to see Voren'thal, and the Scryers library. Still, it's hard for us to have a realistic stance like this, when most of the world pre-outland is oblivious to the situation up there. It is pretty cool, though, to be treated as if we have no clue what we're talking about, when it is we who know the truth.

[Qabian]

The Scryers who betrayed their Prince for the sake of the Naaru? Bwahaha! The way the Scryers talk, they're all "All hail the Naaru" and hardly seem to mention the whole Legion thing. Everything they do seems to be sucking up to the Naaru and trying to be better in the eyes of the Naaru than the Aldor are, to the exclusion of all other possible concerns, which makes Q think they're all a bunch of pansies who abandoned their cause for the next thing that came along. I guess if Blizz is trying to make the directly stated Legion component Top Secret until Kael squishings or something... but always only hinting at it really makes the Scryers look like jerks for up and leaving Kael, especially for characters who already distrust the Naaru.

Yeah, the freedom fighter idea definitely has merit. Draco's fun. Playing a mage who's theoretically involved in keeping things quiet does mean I'll laugh at him when he announces his intentions, but it makes for good times, yes?

I'm not really a big fan of breaking all the Scryer details to those who can't cross the portal regularly, and as Q, a good little mage in training, I obstinately refused to hear any of it until I saw it for myself, but if those in training who learn the details can find a way to incorporate their knowledge with being able to walk around Silvermoon without raving about things that would quite obviously get them mind controlled like the chumps in the Bazaar, it's all good.


It is pretty cool, though, to be treated as if we have no clue what we're talking about, when it is we who know the truth.

But you expect to be treated as if you have no clue what you're talking about, which is what makes the difference, really. It's the people who are like, "You're under arrest," and I look at them funny and go, "No, you're under arrest," that have slightly skewed viewpoints, I think, heh. And I don't know of too many others who are willing to play the "Hush, Kael's coming back for us" game, but Q definitely knows the Scryer and Legion components, and he's still playing the game for the Magisters. And if anything, Q is exemplary of the corruption the Order believes exists, haha!

It's not the possible internal Silvermoon conflict with those who are trying to reconcile what they're doing with some sense of morality that bothers me. The internal conflict itself is great. It's those who forget/don't realize which side of the conflict they're playing on that make me /sigh.

[Keraph]

I've heard of you, in character. I could definately see us clashing.

[Qabian]

Of all the people Q has interacted with, I can count those who haven't clashed with him on one hand, and about half of those are certifiably insane, while the other half managed to avoid talking politics at any point, so probably would clash with him eventually. Of course, most people clash with him because he's an arrogant bastard, rather than because of his political position, but I'm always up for the clashing. I'm just not up for Blood Knights who think any sensible Mage is going to listen to a word they say, haha!

[Nymare]

I've heard of you, in character. I could definately see us clashing.

In pudding.

Take screenies.


Nym's point of view is basically: With Arcane Patrollers walking around spouting things like "Prince Kael'Thas will lead us to the promised land" and "Happiness is mandatory" - there has GOT to be someone in the higher-ups who know exactly what is going on. Silvermoon is like one big haven of mind control and deception. The debates in the Bazaar? Yeah, they have a priest portaled in to mind control the speakers when things get out of hand. You're not supposed to be able to think for yourself. Go party. Go have some mana. Go be happy. Nym pretty much believes her people are being kept under addiction to make it easier to control them when the Prince says jump... because you have to be out of your mind to be all right with the Legion stirring your kool-aid.

[Keraph]

WHAT? The LEGION has been stirring my KOOL-AID? OH NO, KOOL-AID MAN, OH NO.

[Xiphus]

That's why I'm not a Blood Elf, but an undead. No complicated politics stuff. And even then, Xiphus has no official affiliation. He is a free agent, which obviously means that he is even less involved in the political side of everything. Less hassle with 'whose side I'm on' and more time spent on earning an unliving.

[Qabian]

The Kool-Aid is tasty. That is all you need to know. Questioning is treason. Continue.

[Broxigan]

Wee. I read through and saw Broxigar. I <3 Broxigar so much.

Hence, why Brox is a decedent of him and named after him, sort of. Similar to the way Durotar and Durotan came about. Take away the R or N and replace it with an R or N.

Different bloodline, but still a decedent if you go back far enough. ^_^

<3 Lore, regardless of how broken it has become.

[Swerto]

r and n are only a short line apart :P


Anyways Securo doesn't care anything about the Silvermoon politics because he has been banished from the society since before they became blood elves. He will probably laugh when he finds the truth and continue on his path to try and gain more power.

Kelithiaa... well she's different. Not only is she Sin'dorei, she supports the prince greatly. I'm pretty sure when she reaches that point... she'll have to figure it out for herself... she won't trust the Scryers... she would call them Naaru suckups...

[EnheilRas]

Honestly, the actions of one orc cannot speak for all orcs. Probably they see the Warsong Clan harvest lumber, go "OMG, they are destroying our forest!" and go 'Treehugger Mode'. Yeah, Broxigar is a hero, and he is an orc. But not every orc is Broxigar. So, the elves know Broxigar, and they know the orcs, but that doesn't excuse the orcs from chopping down their beloved forest.

Imagine, I walk into your neighborhood and start setting all your lawns ablaze. You won't care if I was a hero or anything, you are going to rip out the pitchfork. Me intruding into your neighborhood and start burning your lawn is reason enough for you and your neighbours to want to stick pitchforks into my body.

Broxigar died though. The Warsong didn't know about the sanctity of the Forest. Had the Kaldorei effectively used some sort of Diplomacy instead of just trying to exterminate them, then that would have saved them the bloodshed.

[Xiphus]

Broxigar died though. The Warsong didn't know about the sanctity of the Forest. Had the Kaldorei effectively used some sort of Diplomacy instead of just trying to exterminate them, then that would have saved them the bloodshed.

Unfortunately, things don't work that way. Remember, only a small portion of intelligent beings let rationale dictate their lives. Most others let emotions do that. That is the case with the Kaldorei, who got so pissed at the orcs chopping down their sacred forest that they start aiming every last arrow they have at them.

And the fact that the Warsong Clan are so full of pride that they refused to listen to other races, and the fact that the night elves resemble their enemies, the high elves so much, doesn't really help either.

Kaldorei: "You despoil our sacred forest!"
Warsong: "Those damned elves are always trying to stop us at every turn! We butcher them this time! None shall stop us!"

And thus, letting hatreds, religious dogma and all sorts of negative emotions flaring, there shall be no attempt at diplomacy.

But of course, if both Kaldorei and Warsong leave behind all the emotions part and decided to use their head a bit more, then maybe there can be diplomacy.

[Keraph]

Wizard's Third Rule: Passion rules reason.

[Xaraphyne]

Wizard's Third Rule: Passion rules reason.

Nerd.

[Keraph]

Nerd.

I know I'm not the only person to have read that series >.>

[Lascivious]

i tried to, it was too contrived, i quit halfway three first book.

[EnheilRas]

Unfortunately, things don't work that way. Remember, only a small portion of intelligent beings let rationale dictate their lives. Most others let emotions do that. That is the case with the Kaldorei, who got so pissed at the orcs chopping down their sacred forest that they start aiming every last arrow they have at them.

Or they just blatantly attacked the Kargathia post without any instigation and found themselves looking for their limbs.

"WE NEED MORE BURROWS!"


And the fact that the Warsong Clan are so full of pride that they refused to listen to other races, and the fact that the night elves resemble their enemies, the high elves so much, doesn't really help either.

Funny, because it seemed like the Warsong clan was just defending themselves since the thought of the clan's complete destruction was viewed as a "bad thing."

[Aquizit]

Ok, if you want to debate Keldorei and Orc racial tensions, make a thread for it. This is about Blood Elves.

I let it go for awhile, thinking it'd die down, but.. it didn't so.. -cracks whip- Off with you!

[Raziel]

I have. Bunches. I just love when someone likes to bring it up again.