Limits on Winning

[Izrail]

Can we have a limit on the number of times a person can win the story contest in a row? I apologise to Acherontia and Melchisedech but one or the two of them winning four consecutive weeks does not feel right. It is good to put out a lot of RP stories, and it is good to support your friends, but it is unfair to the rest of the community. A limit on winning twice in a row sounds reasonable to me. Even the president of the United States is limited on the number of times he or she can be voted into office.

[Melchisedech]

How, exactly, is it unfair? Isn't it a vote? Doesn't the community decide who wins?

I'm opposed to a "term limit" for an RP Contest. It's not unfair, it just means the community thinks the winner's story is the best. Whichever story the community thinks is best should win, and if that's mine or yours or Mortica's or Abric's or anyone's, that's who wins. That should be the only limit. Politicians have term limits to ensure they don't abuse the power their position gives them. There is no power granted from this contest.

I hereby officially oppose term limits, and, for the record, I'd oppose them no matter who won six times in a row (or whatever). I don't care. If you write what the community thinks is the best story, you win. IF you didn't win, the community didn't like your story as much as someone else's.

[Mortica]

Yeah, I'm not sure what to do with that. The stories are excellent, some of the best writing I've seen here, but yeah, 4 weeks in a row is a bit much. In the past things have always self regulated.

I could handicap winners... ie. 1 week after a win = -4 votes, 2 weeks after a win = -2 votes or something like that.

However, the contest has always been somewhat riggable because we only get roughly 15-20ish votes each week out of a community of 100+ regulars, so someone with 5 friends can easily swing the vote in their favor without too much effort. I'm not accusing them of voting fraud because, like I said, the stories ARE excellent, but it is a problem we've had in the past.

This is also the reason I never changed the prize money from 10G. Even though an equivalent amount of farming time after I hit 60 would have given me 20 or 30G, and now that I am 70 probably 50 or 60G, the point of the prize money was just to give people incentive to write (especially new people to the server) but not be such a large amount that it would make people greedy and cheat.

I am open to suggestions.

[Mortica]

Yeah, I don't want to change a rule that's been in place for nearly a year and a half just because "someone's winning too much". I'm just sayijng I'm open to reasonable suggestions.

The purpose of the contest is to give people a reason to write and to give procrastinators a deadline to "not put off writing the story until tomorrow".

[Acherontia]

I don't particularly care for the handicap because, like Morticia said, we only get about 15-20 people to vote on the contest in a given week - that would hamstring the story from the get-go and be tantamount to restricting that entry from the contest in the first place. I can't speak for Melchisedech, but the prize money isn't really something that is a draw for me - I wouldn't mind having Morticia say that one particular person or group can't win the prize MONEY more then X number of weeks in a row and just award it to the story with the next-highest number of votes.

It's impossible to know whether or not the votes a story gets are from their friends and guildmates or from people who read all the stories and genuinely like one better than the others (I HOPE it's the latter, at least), but Melchisedech does have a point - it is a vote, and the multiple-instance winners shouldn't be penalized because people keep voting for them.

And then we have the highly-complicated option of restricting the voting to the main contributors of the stories in the contest with the stipulation that they can't vote for their own and see what happens then (that would definitely make the chance of popularity wins less), but that seems a little too much.

Incidentally, why is voting still going on? I thought it ran from midnight server time Tuesday morning to midnight server time Wednesday morning. Getting kinda nervous over here... ;)

[Skafloc]

While in principle I can see Mel's argument as valid, I think he is missing the whole original purpose of the story contest, which was to encourage creativity and contribution from different folk, and to provide a little incentive to do so. The contest in itself isnt whats important, its the encouragement of authors.

I agree, the stories are excellent, and anyone would be hard pressed to argue they didn't deserve to win. The unfortunate side effect of that many excellent tales winning from the same contributors is that it can become discouraging for others to even bother contibuting, assuming the incentive is part of the reason they post. I have no doubt part of the victories is the "vote for your friend" syndrome as opposed to "vote for your favorite tale".

Personally, I make it my policy to never vote for my own story if I can help it. I will on occasion vote for my own if there were other collaberators involved who's work I feel is so good I want to recognize it. That is really the only exception.

I also refrain from casting a vote for the same author twice in a row. I want to recognize others besides the same good authors time and time again. It goes back to encouraging a wider range of contributors.

My suggestion? A winning author ( or team of authors) are ineligible for the next week. After a week's grace they are once again eligible. Not to suggest their stories might not be superb that week, but it allows for others to get a moment in the spotlight and be recognized.

Just my 2 cents...

[Melchisedech]

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that this WILL sort itself out. If people decide they don't want to see the same person win multiple weeks, they'll stop voting for that person. Now, I think that's just as unfair as voting for someone because they're your friend (or spouse or what have you) instead of because you think their STORY is the best, but there's no way to censor that, and I would be opposed to such censorship if it could be enforced.

If one person (or two people, or us, or me, or whatever) winning repeatedly is a problem for you, stop voting for that person. If the majority agrees with you, they'll stop, too, and the person will stop winning.

[Kallindra]

I don't see how it's been unfair personally.

The polling is anonymous. The stories are open for all to read for a week. There are seven days for the entire community to submit new entries.

The community as a whole has an entire day to read all the entries and choose whom they each feel is the best story. If collectively the same people are putting out each week a fresh story that the community is finding the best, how is that wrong?

If you want to start imposing limitations on the contest, you can. It's your site. I think it's unfair to the people who've obviously been working hard to create these stories though. The contest is supposed to help be incentive to write. How can you improve your own writing if you are driving away the good writers by imposing limitations on when they can or cannot submit their writings for the contest?

Mel and Acherontia, I really hope that this doesn't discourage you from sharing your stories. I have been enjoying them immensely. I wish I had the time to devote to writing as you do. I look forward to reading the new works every time I see you post, so I hope none of this negative thread deters your inspiration.

[Acherontia]

Ahhh, Skafloc, writing shouldn't be mercenary. :) It should happen because it just has to get out.

[Acherontia]

Mel and Acherontia, I really hope that this doesn't discourage you from sharing your stories. I have been enjoying them immensely. I wish I had the time to devote to writing as you do. I look forward to reading the new works every time I see you post, so I hope none of this negative thread deters your inspiration.

Ohhhhh no no no. There's much more to come. There's some timing involved, though. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of in-game contact with other people (as we're in our thirties and can't really do anything with the guild in terms of raiding or instancing; etc. *cries forever*), but we still have ideas we're working with.

*looks back at derailed thread* Oops. :oops:

[Skafloc]

Ahhh, Skafloc, writing shouldn't be mercenary. :) It should happen because it just has to get out.

Quoted for truth! I'm right there with you on that. Personally, I never cared much for the contest in any case. I just write because I have all this crap swirling around in my head and it needs release.

If not through Skafloc, through one of my gazillion alter egos..

[Kallindra]

Mel and Acherontia, I really hope that this doesn't discourage you from sharing your stories. I have been enjoying them immensely. I wish I had the time to devote to writing as you do. I look forward to reading the new works every time I see you post, so I hope none of this negative thread deters your inspiration.

Ohhhhh no no no. There's much more to come. There's some timing involved, though. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of in-game contact with other people (as we're in our thirties and can't really do anything with the guild in terms of raiding or instancing; etc. *cries forever*), but we still have ideas we're working with.

*looks back at derailed thread* Oops. :oops:

I know that feeling! I had the very same. Whisper me sometime though OOC. I'll see what I can do. I need to work on getting an Alt anyways.

[Sanrin]

Maybe we can have a contest: Worst story of the week, then kill the winners of that! Then more people will push harder to write better and the dark grasp of death currently gripping us all would be broken!

...now if only we can just force people to write....

[Skafloc]

...now if only we can just force people to write....

Starting with YOU! * points to the silvery haired paladin..*

You left us hanging there with the book....

[Acherontia]

Maybe we can have a contest: Worst story of the week, then kill the winners of that! Then more people will push harder to write better and the dark grasp of death currently gripping us all would be broken!

...now if only we can just force people to write....

*giggles madly* I'll use an expendable alt. *enter level 3 orc*

"Umm...I like cheese," he said. And he ate some. Then he ate some more.

FIN

------------------------------------

What do you think?

[Skafloc]

*giggles madly* I'll use an expendable alt. *enter level 3 orc*

"Umm...I like cheese," he said. And he ate some. Then he ate some more.

FIN

------------------------------------

What do you think?


OFF WITH HER HEAD!!!!! :evil:

[Mortica]

ok ok..don't derail this too much :P

[Acherontia]

*giggles madly* I'll use an expendable alt. *enter level 3 orc*

"Umm...I like cheese," he said. And he ate some. Then he ate some more.

FIN

------------------------------------

What do you think?


OFF WITH HER HEAD!!!!! :evil:

AAIIEEEEEEEEE!!!! *runs*

[Sanrin]

XD I was gonna write more, but then I had finals! *cries*

[Evanthe]

Back on topic! *whips*


I'm undecided on this, because I can see it both ways. It is very discouraging for other writers if they see the same people win each week. Additionally, which each consecutive win, resenment can build, in turn coloring the win and leading people to believe that some force other than the quality of the author's writing is behind the multiple victories. Example: They only win becuase their friends vote for them. This diminishes the work done by the authors and is poor for the community as a whole.

However, limiting a person from winning can be equally stifling, and really isn't fair to the authors.

I think a better idea than limiting the voting is to try and get more people to read the stories and vote in the contest. The larger the voting population the more difficult it is to sway the poll results by asking a few freinds to vote for you.

[Thaena]

It's an interesting problem.

At one point I seem to remember Mort mentioning that she was considering limiting the contest to people that had tagged their stories "for the contest". I think that doing something along those lines would be a much better way of dealing with such an issue, than putting limitations on the number of wins. I hardly ever vote in the contest because as much as I may want to, I just can't get around to reading all 15+ entries every week and I think it's unfair of me to vote for one of the 3 I did read just because they're the only ones that caught my eye. My only exception is if I read something and just go "Wow, that was too awesome, I've gotta vote for this." So if other people are like myself, then just the sheer number of entries makes it difficult to vote without resorting to "hey, I read so-and-so friend of mine's post and it was pretty good so I'll vote for them".

But I don't write for the contest, I write to expand on my character.

Actually, in terms of competition I really like the whole Lovely Contest style. Kinda seems more fair when everyone is writing about the same thing... or maybe that's just me?

Anywho, just my 2cp.

[Acherontia]

At one point I seem to remember Mort mentioning that she was considering limiting the contest to people that had tagged their stories "for the contest". I think that doing something along those lines would be a much better way of dealing with such an issue, than putting limitations on the number of wins.

...I can't believe I didn't think of that. I like it a LOT.

[Kallindra]

I agree. Thaena's suggestion (which may very well be Mort's suggestion) seems very prudent.

However, what happens if no one enters anything into the pool for the contest that week?

[Acherontia]

I agree. Thaena's suggestion (which may very well be Mort's suggestion) seems very prudent.

However, what happens if no one enters anything into the pool for the contest that week?

Then the money gets donated to the starving children of Stormwind. Er, Orgrimmar.

[Solenev]

Thaena brings up an excellent idea! I loved the Lovely contest. Every single entry was excellent. Having something like that once a month would be fun as well, giving people something particular to write about. I remember Vilmah tried that with Valentines Day and I loved the idea, just got sidetracked with real life. That's something that should be encouraged.

My issue is not when quality people win the contest, for there's been some amazing stories lately. My issue is when something comes up and wins purely based on popularity. Embarrassingly enough, my story from last year got fodder votes from friends because I was so excited it was in the competition and I won. I'd like to think though that it won on merit, but there's that cheapness of knowing that people voted for me because they liked me.

I shouln't complain about other entries, because everyone's writing skills are different, but I know there were some wins that made me go, "Wtf?" when there were several other entries that were creative and fresh. Maybe Izrail that's what you're thinking about. Acherontia and Melisidech are skill craftsmen in writing, that's not an issue for me if they win. My issue is when popularity wins over quality.

Oh and Abric, the Grim do seem to have landslide victories. Must be your leather pants.

Having people write that they want to enter the competition also limits the same entries from coming back and winning again, even if they've been updated. I know a few storylines of mine that were entered prematurely. I like to have a finished product before any competition, whether it's for this community or not. Having the choice to enter your story in when it's done or near done would be so nice.

Skafloc's right. It's not about the competition it's about writing for me. The fact that people are reading or might be reading is enough to make me feel like it's worth it.

[Thaena]

The one thing I really liked from some of my college assignments was when they'd give us a project like this:

3 drawn pages (comics)
Must involve the following items: A Piano, a robot, a fairy princess and a dinosaur.

And that's it. It is really amazing what people come up with! So if it were up to me (and I note that it is not) then I'd have a monthly grab-bag contest open to anyone that wanted to compete. I'd post the story requirements and then people would have 2 weeks to make their entries, 1 week for people to digest the stories and then a week to cast votes.

To further the derailment, I've talked about it before, but I'd love to pair up writer/artist teams to create Azerothian Fairytales. (Goldielocks and the three Feral Druids... Rumplestiltspec... The little Drummer Orc... you know, stuff like that. :D) It'd be awesome!

[Solenev]

My favourite thing to do with writing is reworking fairy tales. I've always love those archetype stories and changing them to suit different characters is so much fun. I'd be totally up for that!

[Sinthe]

I tend not to vote. Honestly, I don't have the time to read every story there is. The ones I do read are usually great, but when there are weeks with upwards of 40 stories submitted, it's just too much at once.

<-- ADDs with his writing. I can't tell you how many half-finished stories I have laying around...

[Abric]

I never vote for Grim stories; except for one by Licidion and one by Yichimet. I don't because, well... could be seen as favoritism.

Tell you what - I'll possibly write a story - and if you don't vote for it I'll kill you.

The monkey has spoken.

[Daala]

I'm extremely massively in favor of more writing contests in the vein of the Lovely one.

[Skafloc]

The one thing I really liked from some of my college assignments was when they'd give us a project like this:

3 drawn pages (comics)
Must involve the following items: A Piano, a robot, a fairy princess and a dinosaur.

And that's it. It is really amazing what people come up with! So if it were up to me (and I note that it is not) then I'd have a monthly grab-bag contest open to anyone that wanted to compete. I'd post the story requirements and then people would have 2 weeks to make their entries, 1 week for people to digest the stories and then a week to cast votes.


Oh! I would sooo be drooling over that! In fact, Jobolg and I over the summer informally did something similar to just that! (( I'll see if I can find that old thread. I know Jobolg's story had something to do with making toast.))

It was some of the most fun I have had writing..

EDIT: I found Jobolg's Toast story, and the responses..

It was in direct response to a story I wrote as my Human priest Nouri (Noury) about horseback riding lessons..

http://www.tn.yzeens.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2455&highlight=

Of course Jobolg took the challenge and delivered this priceless entry:

http://www.tn.yzeens.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2549&highlight=

With the bar raised, I had to come up with this:

http://www.tn.yzeens.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2817&highlight=

Reading back on those little gems, I am inspired. I love whimsey..[/url]

[Izrail]

I like the idea of having story contest entries labelled as such. If the problem is people do not want to read all of the stories, then that would help. I am unsure about having themed contests, because if you think about some of the major winners they evolved from storylines that were unfolding on the server. Themed stories (fun as they are!) might not have the same emphasis on character, plot, and server development.

[Mortica]

Just to update my thoughts:

1. I will keep an eye on the contest, but I don't have any intentions of changing the rules yet.

2. I have thought about making people register to enter the contest, but other than stickying a new thread at the top of the Legends forum and making people post to that thread when they want a story entered, I don't see an easy way to do it. And I'm still concerned some people might not enter due to shyness.

3. Other contests: I have an idea for something that could be done to give you some fun stuff, but I need to work out the details.

4. Somewhat unrelated but since it's my largest concern with the site right now: It use to be that I'd get a hack attempt on the site maybe once a month. I'm not sure if we went up in Google ranks, or what the deal is because they are almost becoming daily. This is irksome in tandem with the fact that the site is spitting out the SQL error messages when things go bad, despite the fact I've changed every flag that is supposed to control that to "NO, please don't post my sql to the peons!". I haven't done any security updates in a while, so I'm becoming kinda nervous about it, so my next major project for the site will probably be to update everything, which will probably take several days of my time.

[Lovely]

<3 Mortica