Looting - Ms/Os Debate.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Alright. As a new raiding guild leader, I figure that I should start wrapping my head around things I should know. One of those things that definitely comes to mind is loot rolling.

How do I go?

MS before OS?
1 Roll / Wing?

Either or seem like a viable solution, however.. as a raider, I notice certain drawbacks to some of the ways to go about it.

MS before OS

This has to be one of the most common ways I find to loot. I know it’s a really awesome form of looting, and personally, the one I prefer to use over 1 Roll / Wing, GDKP, etc.

However, there’s something that’s been on my mind about this lately.

Main spec before Off spec can only truly pertain to a few classes. Death Knight, Paladin, Warrior, Shaman, Priest, Druid. The classes that can legitimately say “Yes, I have an off-spec, it’s [insert heals/dps/tank here]”.

Hunters, Mages, Warlocks and Rogues however, don’t share the same luck. They only have really, one spec; DPS.

My question therefore stands, if you have those four classes rolling against gear in your raid, how should you be handling it? Because obviously, those classes have Main spec, and Main spec, especially if they’re raiding.

An example:

I was in a ToC 25 earlier today [If any of you were there, late hellos] and we had a couple rogues in the group. No feral druids. We were using the 1 MS / OS doesn’t count rolling system.

Would it then just be open rolls for them because there’s no contesting? I mean, I know there are some boundaries [IE if someone starts winning more], but I mean.. what would you do?

[Wyrdassil]

What you could do, is give all people named Daz in your guild whatever gear they want that drops.
I like that idea myself.


IMO - we should do a GDKP with our guild for laffos at some point, but other than that, you could try and combine the two.
1 MS roll per wing - unlimited OS
BUT if a Mage/Hunter/Warlock/Rogue rolls "OS" on it, because they've won a MS, they get priority or something.
I dunno. We'll talk and work something out.

[Dahnek]

Rogues however, don’t share the same luck. They only have really, one spec; DPS.



This is incorrect. Spec is spec, and the versatility of the rogue class, like DK's, requires understanding what you are dealing with. If you give a dagger to a combat rogue over a Mut rogue you'll have a riot, much like giving a one-hander to an Unholy dps over a shammy/hunter/etc will cause the same response. Dps is versatile, and to be fair to your raiders make sure this is clear.

Main spec is what spec you are currently raiding as. Frost DK's should not expect to roll on two-handers, nor should Mutilate rogues expect to snag an axe for example. Grasping this will help avoid loot issues.

Best system I've seen;

MS > OS, one MS per wing, infinite OS and items noone else wants.
- MS roll
- MS (Already won something) roll
- OS roll

[Agnarr]

Main spec is what spec you are currently raiding as.
But what if you fill multiple roles depending on the encounter? For example, a warrior might be either DPS or Tank/OT for different boss encounters.

[Necroxis]

The role you advertised yourself to the leader and joined as. Wipe on Heroic Saurfang and had to switch to heals? That's great, but you still came in as ret.

[Moknim]

For a guild, I like the "Don't be a douche" looting system. If you have loot whores, they will be upset, but honestly they are upset no matter what.

Generally I would give priority like this:
Upgrade > Sidegrade/Upgrade if other things drop > Offspec

If your raiding roster changes a lot and you are doing 25s, give 1 MS priority roll per raid. If you have a fairly set roster - do SuicideKings/DKP/somethingelse.

If I were in that ToC25 - tell the rogues not to be douches and decide who gets what. If there is drama make an executive decision.

[Dahnek]

But what if you fill multiple roles depending on the encounter? For example, a warrior might be either DPS or Tank/OT for different boss encounters.

Any hybrids who also tanked I've ever raided with let the Raid Leader know ahead of time that he/she wanted to roll on dps gear.

[Gorvena]

Technically mages, warlocks, hunters and rogues have only MS rolls. Now, like Dahnek mentioned earlier, there are "variations," but the player should know this and roll accordingly. For example, arcane mages should almost never roll on anything with hit (unless it is a HUGE upgrade in SP or crit), and sorry fellas, but a hunter is a hunter is a hunter.

Then again, it's all hunter gear...

[Lisbet]

Easy answer --

1. Pure dps have an offspec. Arcane mages can be fire offspec (or frost, LAWL) Mut rogues can have a Combat offspec (or vise verse), Demo locks can have an Afflic offspec.

That being said, the person rolling for offspec peices as a dps should have their secondary spec as their offspec --(exceptions apply: aka a holy/shadow priest going Holy/Disc for the run or a feral/tree dropping their healing spec for a moonkin spec due to lack of ranged, etc). If you make the stipulation at the begining of the run, you'll find the "lewt whores" of offspec free roll runs will be far less "lewt whorish".

2. As for seeing people get carried away with offspec pieces -- make the rule 4 peices of offspec. Then it'll read "two main spec pieces, x trophies (unless they're wrapped in main speca), and 4 offspec free rolls." -- in places like ToC/ToGC, there's only so many bosses. So Especially if you roll offspec trophies into the offspec freeroll, people will be less greedy and choosier about the offspec stuff they roll on.

[Duroxas]

sometimes little things like the size of the raid and how well you know everyone in it can factor in to how loot gets distributed. In a 10man, at least, when the people know eachother, people tend to be smart enough to figure out stuff like this amongst themselves and know who really ought to get the item in question.

DPS classes that arent hybrids, thier main spec is thier main spec. They do it differently with slightly different stats, but they all DPS, and thats all they do. They dont really have offspecs in terms to core mechanics like tanking or healing.

"But I want that caster mail for my mend pet spec!"

[Maithanet]

I've always worked the "Don't be a douche" roll system. Once you get something you lose priority against someone who's won nothing or less than you. If you think someone is being a loot whore or a prick, call them out.

I've never ever had a problem. But then I make the fact that I loathe loot systems very clear and loathe loot whores even more.

[Gorvena]

But all raiders are loot whores. That's why they raid... >.>

[Domni]

If you're running a 25 man raid, I recommend taking the time to learn which spec needs what, which stats overlap, and which stats are absolutely useless for certain specs. You'll hear all about it over vent when a roll is iffy, but it's much better if you know the facts yourself. I know most of them, but not all of them. I have 2-3 trusted go-to people that I ask for clarifications in disputes.

Download Headcount or another addon to track who has won loot and attended raids.

I personally use: MS > MS Already Won > OS

One main spec per raid. No default wins. If no one rolls, the item goes to unlimited Main Spec Already Won and then to unlimited Offspec. Tokens count as MS. BoE count as MS, but will go to MS2 and OS if immediately equipped. Unwanted BoE are saved until the end of the raid and rolled off to those who haven't won loot. Saronite count as MS and are saved until the end as well.

With PuGs, your MS is what you're there as, and you can only roll on your dominant armor type. If everyone in your raid is from your guild, you can be more flexible. My poor boomkin have to roll offspec on cloth, but it's pretty easy to get now since the casters are already geared.

This allows for a better distribution of loot raid-wide. Items stay primarily with mainspecs without the tracking nightmare of 1 loot per wing. You should specify that to roll on MS already won, you must have already won something. People unfamiliar to your raid will always try to find a way to undermine established rules.

If you have a melee DPS that often serves as a third tank, ask them before each raid which type of gear they want to roll on. Joringil tanks three fights for me and is DPS the rest of the time. He's the exception to my rule, and I permit him to roll on DPS gear MS. Since we only have two tanks, the tank gear often goes to OS. He rolls on it then and competes with the other OS melee.

Announce your rules upfront and stick to them. It's important to stand your ground and be fair. Loot might not always work out perfectly, but even your lowest DPS has a right to a MS roll and is depending on you to defend him from vulturous competitors (even if justified-even if you agree).

The best raids are when people are patient and fair amongst themselves and I'm just there to make announcements and hit the loot button.

[Abric]

I've always worked the "Don't be a douche" roll system. Once you get something you lose priority against someone who's won nothing or less than you. If you think someone is being a loot whore or a prick, call them out.

BAM! Despite him being English, he has the right idea there!

So far you got some pretty good ideas to pull from. Depending on the size (10/25) and group (PuG/No-PuG) ... your loot system will and should change according to what is needed. The smaller the group, the less restrictions are really needed. The larger the group, the more rules are required to handle the 15-year old (and people who act 15) who don't care about anybody in the raid but themselves.

The only new addition that I can add is: KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. Don't try to do any elaborate rule system or exception to rules or separate of rules based on the cycle of the moon and the amount of druids you have divided by the hunter pets - unless it is a wolf then it is multipled by the factor of daggers to axes with the rogue group.

KISS. If somebody wants to make a big deal about loot ... doesn't necessarily make them a douche, but a simple system will allow you to separate real concerns from the assholes trying to milk that tit for all its worth.

[Jeedup]

The size of the raid also matters, if you're doing 10s, then the systems described above are perfect, and if you doing 25s, and you're generally going to be doing it with the same 25 people, and have the ability to really keep track of things, the above systems aren't well suited, but can work. I've always been a big advocate for EPGP, set up however way helps your raid and raiders. It's fairly simple, and even more so with an easy add-on. To each their own, you'll find something that works for you group.

[Fhoyle]

I like the way Domni does it. Allowing an "already won MS" roll is something I hadn't seen before and it cleans up the first set of rolls because the raid leader doesn't have to go "joe had a 72, but he's won already, jill had a 55...hmm..already won.., err.. oh hey, fred hasn't won, master loot it to him.

If you have puggers, I think this will save you from those less than morally upright people who conveniently disconnect after they get their one MS item.

As for dps offspec, I think this should be treated the same as off-armor type rolls (ie, druids rolling for cloth). Obviously keeping track of things like that just makes things more complicated than you are probably going to want to deal with, but I know as a former raiding rogue, my spec was dependent on what weapons I had, not the other way around.

[Taleron]

I like a loot council.

That is fair, I've been in some guilds that work it very fair and there aren't rage quits.

BAse it on attendance AND performance.

Keep track of who is getting what, and it works out well.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

I think I've heard of that one. Is that where you ask the entire raid who could benefit from it most, and take a vote on it or something? Or even, who deserves it, as a raider, most?

[Dahnek]

Loot Council is where a "core group" (usually made up of the first members/longest lasting/IRL friends/etc) decides who gets what in the runs. While I have heard tales of some being fair (giving loot to who needs the upgrades most, balancing this out by attendance and performance), usually loot councils are a breeding place of power plays, bribes, back stabbing and manipulations. There are numerous examples of this, ranging from Project X (hardcore E-whore manipulating loot councils to gear her toons) and it's variations to madness like that Warrior who ended up taking that legendary bow from Sunwell over his guild's hunters (also had the warglaves before the guild's rogues as well).

If you want a fair way of doing things once you start running full guild runs, look into EPGP system. That was how it was done in HSM and many other high end guilds, and imo is the most fair if you are looking to go past the standard MS>OS system.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Yeah. I figured, and said to a friend of mine over IM's that Loot Council honestly wouldn't work for us unless we were all extremely good friends, who could make those fair decisions, without bias. And frankly, in a guild of newer friends, it wouldn't work, and i'm willing to admit now that it wouldn't.

It's another idea to kick into the pot, however.

[Taleron]

Loot councils are for mature guilds that don't PuG and have an honest, unselfish loot council. It can happen, and I've been in guilds that do it very well.

[Lailinarel]

Loot councils are for mature guilds that don't PuG and have an honest, unselfish loot council. It can happen, and I've been in guilds that do it very well.

As well as a core of people who won't get bitchy, whiny and emo over not getting that shiney when the loot council decides it would be better off somewhere else. No matter how fair your loot council is, the rest of the guild has to be willing to work with and support them to avoid the drama.

The Sword of the Morning has always been a Mainspec > Off spec guild, we bring pugs and they share the same chance of getting loots as anyone else, generally I try to avoid bringing alts that will contend with mains for gear if possible and if there is ever an issue we discuss it like adults. If all else fails, the hand of god (master looter and raid leader, aka me) will start smiting bitches till everyone gets the fuck over it.

Really it's about courtesy (especially in ten mans) if you've got a group of friends who's there to play together then the gear is secondary anyway.

[Taleron]

I agree, it doesnt work when you have a lot of whiney loot whores hahaha.

Which unfortunately is unavoidable, but still, with a good group of people who understand what is and isnt best for a progression guild and want to progress and a fair loot council, which is equally as hard to find prob.

Its just my fav type of looting. But it is impossible for PuG's, the best way for PuG's imo is 1 MS loot, unlimited OS, MS > OS, even if someone has won a MS piece. If there is no competition, they should still win it over any OS.

[Lisbet]

If you want a fair way of doing things once you start running full guild runs, look into EPGP system. That was how it was done in HSM and many other high end guilds, and imo is the most fair if you are looking to go past the standard MS>OS system.


EPGP is what we use - we stole the idea from HSM at the start of Wrath because DKP was to easily abused and to easily inflatable.

You get X amount of EP (Effort Points) for every boss you kill. (We do active raiders and non-afk standbyers)

You roll, you win, spend the allotted EP (Exp: 304 ep, pre marked, for a hat), and gain GP (Gear Points).

Your EP score, and your GP score is divided. That number is your PR (Priority Rating).

PR determent your place in line for items. Anyone who wins something drops down the list due to gain of GP and loss of EP. Thus, eventually, anyone at the bottem SHOULD** eventually make it to the top.



It works out pretty fairly - everyone gets a chance. Mind you, weapons cost a fuckton more then say.. shoulders or a token, but it all evens out.


** should, because it works unless your like, the tank who needs gear. Then your ass is always on the bottem ;p


As for the guy who says Loot Council is the way to go --- that is terrible advice. Loot council is based in favoritism. Pure and Simple. Its a terrible system for anyone but the closest of the officers friends and family. So.. yea, LC is great if you're best friends with the GM. Otherwise, kiss your gear goodbye.




Needless to say - point systems and LC don't work if your pugging.

If your running 10 mans only, there's no need for either - just Need (main spec)/Greed (off spec)/ Pass to DE'er will work fine.
If your not pugging, you need some kind of system for 25's. Its really your choice in the long run - but its much easier to get people to join your guild/raid coalition if they think they have a fair shot at loot.