Dps Discussion (pulled from recruitment thread)

[Swerto]

Arms/Fury warriors > Ret Pallies/DKs


Just saying.

[Lisbet]

Arms/Fury warriors > Ret Pallies/DKs


Just saying.

In no world, yours, mine, or the real one, is that correct. If you are out dpsing a ret pallie swerto, they're the most terrible ret paladin in the world. Current content is undead - ret paladins have a x2 multiplier against undead. The best arms and furry warriors in the world aren't beating ret paladins in dps right now.

Don't even get me started on DK's and their insane 'aoe everything' dps. Again. Best vrs best, warriors are 4th.

[Akuje]

Remember the server he plays on, and which faction he plays on, and then think about quality of player... =-p


Just be glad you aren't a moonkin. In BEST guilds in the world, they are bottom barrel. AND blizzard knows they need to be fixed, and they have said "We know moonkins are broken, we'll fix them in cataclysm". So that's 7 months of being the worse dps, and they have since given every other class out buffs. Sad day to be lazer chicken.

[Gorvena]

But thunder chickens will still go to any raid they want because all of the casters want their buff. And if there's no other mage to trade FM with, I will put it on the boomer to increase his crits.

And yeah, dps warriors come up short unless they are surrounded by fail paladins, DKs and rogues.

On a side note, it is refreshing to me to see that the last buff Blizz gave Arcane mages (one extra stack of ab), is turning out to be more of a buff than any of us expected as I can now reasonable compete with rogues and ret pallies.

[Chikt]

Remember the server he plays on, and which faction he plays on, and then think about quality of player... =-p

So you're knocking not only the server, but also the Horde AND Swerto.

Nice job bro.

That said. I don't know how Swerto could honestly say Ret Paladins and DK's don't dramatically overpower Warriors. I don't need to raid in order to see just what's better in most cases.


Just be glad you aren't a moonkin. In BEST guilds in the world, they are bottom barrel. AND blizzard knows they need to be fixed, and they have said "We know moonkins are broken, we'll fix them in cataclysm". So that's 7 months of being the worse dps, and they have since given every other class out buffs. Sad day to be lazer chicken.

Lets face it.

A class and spec is always going to be bottom of the barrel, so that doesn't say much. I've heard a lot of stuff about issues Boomkin and Elemental Shaman have, but they're both non-pure DPS classes.

Which makes no sense given that Shadow Priest is non-pure DPS and seems simply ungodly powerful at the moment.

It's all really weird.

[Akuje]

But thunder chickens will still go to any raid they want because all of the casters want their buff.

Every buff except GOTW can be covered by other class's. Elemental's buff actually helped them, so ina 25 man, where a Spriest and Elemental shaman are present, moonkins will take a back seat.





So you're knocking not only the server, but also the Horde AND Swerto.

Nice job bro.

That said. I don't know how Swerto could honestly say Ret Paladins and DK's don't dramatically overpower Warriors. I don't need to raid in order to see just what's better in most cases.



Lets face it.

A class and spec is always going to be bottom of the barrel, so that doesn't say much. I've heard a lot of stuff about issues Boomkin and Elemental Shaman have, but they're both non-pure DPS classes.

Which makes no sense given that Shadow Priest is non-pure DPS and seems simply ungodly powerful at the moment.

It's all really weird.


Hey, there really is no shock that Twisting Nether is not a leading server. If anyone is truely shocked by that fact, where have you been hiding? And I did not intend to insult swerto, "The quality of player" was referring to the DK's and rets he playing with that he is grossly out dpsing.

And I kid the horde, although a fair number of the best players have since faction transferred.


Yes there is always a class that should be at the bottom. But they would compensate that by giving them very desirable buffs. That is how the moonkin survived. But now that we bring nothing unique except for a battle rez (and most 25 mans have several druids so 1 more isn't that exciting) we don't get as many progression raid spots. It's depressing playing a broken class, that has been for 3 months, and will be for no less then 4 more months.

[Jeedup]

DPS Warriors not being top damage?

Yes and no.

Like already has been covered, it depends on the gear levels, the other dps, and the skill of the players.

They CAN be within top 5-8-10 depending on if it's 10 or 25 man.

Oh, do I remember the glory days of the first few patches in Wrath. When Fury was dominating with massive crits from Deep Wounds, and Whirlwind crits.

Now though, most Fury Warriors (atleast), are buffing their Armor Penetration rating (which annoys me to no end), and can get rather high damage depending if the raid is deliberately going about maximizing dps via class buffs.

We probably won't see Warriors stay in the top five slot till Cataclysm, when ArP goes the way of the dodo bird, and Fury Warriors go back to reading their tool tips for their main attacks.

[Moknim]

Since this is now a DPS discussion, I will bring up the quote I read (somewhere on the wow forum) that explained the problem with Moonkin the best:

From Zoomkin - Moonkin in a nutshell: You have to stack crit to crit to have a chance on crit to proc an ability that makes crit useless to use an ability that favors haste, then crit to proc another ability that procs haste to make haste useless. Repeat.

[Akuje]

Since this is now a DPS discussion, I will bring up the quote I read (somewhere on the wow forum) that explained the problem with Moonkin the best:

From Zoomkin - Moonkin in a nutshell: You have to stack crit to crit to have a chance on crit to proc an ability that makes crit useless to use an ability that favors haste, then crit to proc another ability that procs haste to make haste useless. Repeat.

Never mind the fact in movement fights, it is not uncommon to loose 40-50% of the proc of a spell.

[Skaadvik]

I know that some people use moonkin on Saurfang 25 to stand on top of me (the hapless Holy Paladin with Righteous Fury) and typhoon like a motherfucker to keep me alive. But I assume the shaman ability could do the same thing?

If nothing else, boomkins are soft and cuddly.

[Urivial]

I know that some people use moonkin on Saurfang 25 to stand on top of me (the hapless Holy Paladin with Righteous Fury) and typhoon like a motherfucker to keep me alive. But I assume the shaman ability could do the same thing?

If nothing else, boomkins are soft and cuddly.

Oh so soft and cuddly...

[Anthek]

In no world, yours, mine, or the real one, is that correct. If you are out dpsing a ret pallie swerto, they're the most terrible ret paladin in the world. Current content is undead - ret paladins have a x2 multiplier against undead. The best arms and furry warriors in the world aren't beating ret paladins in dps right now.

Don't even get me started on DK's and their insane 'aoe everything' dps. Again. Best vrs best, warriors are 4th.

You are both pretty wrong about this.

Big image, so I'm linking this: http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4093/100216dps2.png

This is an average across some of the top guilds from World of Logs. Fury Warriors are consistently ahead of Ret Paladins on most fights, by a small margin, sure. Arms is much worse off, though, but some that a lot of people complain about (Balance Druids, for example) aren't in that bad of a spot. Death Knights, Warlocks, and any spec of Mage that isn't Arcane were much worse off before the recent patch. Subtlety doesn't even exist in a raid.

[Akuje]

I know that some people use moonkin on Saurfang 25 to stand on top of me (the hapless Holy Paladin with Righteous Fury) and typhoon like a motherfucker to keep me alive. But I assume the shaman ability could do the same thing?

If nothing else, boomkins are soft and cuddly.

At most peoples gear level, on normal mode that isn't used anymore, heroic modes... you use a moonkin, a ele shaman, and a mage freezing them in place, they are hungry bastards that go NOM

[Akuje]

You are both pretty wrong about this.

Big image, so I'm linking this: http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4093/100216dps2.png

This is an average across some of the top guilds from World of Logs. Fury Warriors are consistently ahead of Ret Paladins on most fights, by a small margin, sure. Arms is much worse off, though, but some that a lot of people complain about (Balance Druids, for example) aren't in that bad of a spot. Death Knights, Warlocks, and any spec of Mage that isn't Arcane were much worse off before the recent patch. Subtlety doesn't even exist in a raid.


So, you are linking a chart that shows non optimal specs.. that have no real value, because true top guilds are going to have only the best specs show up, not a "play what you want to" spec.

If you look at the chart, over all bosses we finish "10th". So, by the time you double up the PROPER raiding specs, moonkin drops to the bottom.

And those are old numbers, as they do not show the elemental shaman or demo buffs that have been around for a while.

Stop and think, how many frost mages does borrowed time bring? Or beast master hunters?

[Grayslin]

*logs on mut rogue*

*pushes 3 buttons*

*tops meter*

*falls asleep*

[Fynne]

*logs on mut rogue*

*pushes 3 buttons*

*tops meter*

*falls asleep*

Sad but true. Mutilate is in a poor state now. It used to require a very tight level of management: not clipping rupture ticks, timing envenoms right after a deadly poison tick, sub-1s remaining HfB refresh and actually having to choose between rupture and envenom if your SnD was going to fall off before you could complete another 4+ cycle, which meant making a judgment call on your incoming energy and pooled level.

Now the only things you have to watch for it are 1) don't clip envenom and 2) pool energy if your proc trinket's ICD is about to come up. I preferred the "more work put in, more reward comes out" style of it, but I'm not sure how much of it is generic nostalgia related to the crotchety old man "back in my day, it was X amount harder" trap.

[Lisbet]

So Furry warriors pull 100 dps more then ret paladins across the board on average. That doesn't at all mean that swerto was right about arms warriors, nor do we have any any fury warriors on server (outside of quaz who's currently arms) that can pull those numbers ;p

[Jeedup]

So Furry warriors pull 100 dps more then ret paladins across the board on average. That doesn't at all mean that swerto was right about arms warriors, nor do we have any any fury warriors on server (outside of quaz who's currently arms) that can pull those numbers ;p

There are actually a few that can, or atleast get close.

Also, the main thing I got from Antheks charts?

Those are the numbers if you managed to make a raid of bots. Because thats the only way you'd reach those numbers.

Your forgetting getting hit with any sort of debuff, lag time, misclicks, deaths (of the dps, tank, healer), badly timed attempts, badly organized raids, badly organized attempts, and missing essential procs. A whole slew of things that could diminish those 'perfect' numbers, into what they'd get close to realisically.

[Akuje]

That's not true Jeedup, on certain fights I actually greatly surpass the "average" balance dps on fights. Those are based off of reports, not theory crafting.

I question its full value as it shows specs that don't belong in progression raiding.

[Jeedup]

That's not true Jeedup, on certain fights I actually greatly surpass the "average" balance dps on fights. Those are based off of reports, not theory crafting.

I question its full value as it shows specs that don't belong in progression raiding.

Maybe you should clean some of the crap out of your feathers then?

FLUTTER FASTER LITTLE TURKEY-THING!

[Jeedup]

I would like to add though, at same gear, I can't recall what specs they were, Borrowed Time had 2-3 DKs absolutely CURBSTOMPING their retadins and dps warriors.

[Anthek]

That's not true Jeedup, on certain fights I actually greatly surpass the "average" balance dps on fights. Those are based off of reports, not theory crafting.

I question its full value as it shows specs that don't belong in progression raiding.

It's taken from logs from the top guilds at the time, even if it takes all DPS specs into consideration. Some aren't present because they aren't even used.

[Grayslin]

Sad but true. Mutilate is in a poor state now. It used to require a very tight level of management: not clipping rupture ticks, timing envenoms right after a deadly poison tick, sub-1s remaining HfB refresh and actually having to choose between rupture and envenom if your SnD was going to fall off before you could complete another 4+ cycle, which meant making a judgment call on your incoming energy and pooled level.

Now the only things you have to watch for it are 1) don't clip envenom and 2) pool energy if your proc trinket's ICD is about to come up. I preferred the "more work put in, more reward comes out" style of it, but I'm not sure how much of it is generic nostalgia related to the crotchety old man "back in my day, it was X amount harder" trap.
Yeah. When they first started "easifying" it, I was kinda happy, because I was never excellent at juggling the short HfB and SnD timers. But they went WAAAAAY overboard to the point where it's a total yawnfest

It's one of the reasons I ended up shifting my main to the DK. (The others being the DK class mechanics and the fact that I started to find tanking more fun)

Syl will always be assassination, though, both when its up, and when its in the toilet. Mostly an RP thing, because I very much favor daggers as a rogue weapon and they just aren't as useful in the other two trees.

[Zultingo]

Maybe you should clean some of the crap out of your feathers then?



I feel this is the quote that should have been directed at swerto at the beginning of this.

Just sayin'.

[Moknim]

I question its full value as it shows specs that don't belong in progression raiding.

You mean...like balance :)