ICC Raid Buff begins

[Cyrass]

Taken from WoW.com


If your guild has been struggling throughout the various bosses in Icecrown Citadel, then struggle no more! Icecrown Citadel raid buffs are now live. For the Alliance, it is called Strength of Wrynn and the Horde version of the buff is Hellscream's Warsong. For now, your health, healing done, and damage done are increased by 5%. It looks like it'll eventually cap out and end at 35% but who knows when that will be. All in all, the buffs will definitely help progression raids out. If your raid doesn't need the buffs, you can simply talk to your faction guy and tell him to go away. He'll ask you once just to confirm, but if you are sure, he'll disappear. We've known that the raid wide buffs would appear at some point but not exactly when.

So, what does TNG think of this?

[CytianaMoonarrow]

..is that a mini ICC nerf ALREADY?

[Cyrass]

..is that a mini ICC nerf ALREADY?

Yes, though this one that was known to be coming at some point, we just didn't know when.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

ICC hasn't even been out FOUR MONTHS, and they're already nerfing it? What the fuck is this? WoW going easy mode or something?

[Urivial]

LOLOLOLOLOL Its been going easy mode for a LONG time.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Well no. If you've just released a raid, and are ALREADY nerfing it, that's like using cheats, imo. :/ Punch in the little code, and BAM! Everythings easier.

[Gorvena]

But it'th too hard!!!

[Grayslin]

*shrug* They always said this would happen because they wanted everybody to eventually be able to see all of icecrown.

Considering it's dismissible, and you can get rid of it if you don't want it, I don't see a huge problem with it. This game has been heading further and further toward easy mode since Wrath launched, and Blizz is happy with that. So if you don't like it, best be getting out now.

[Jikara]

Sy has a point. Look at any of the Vanilla raids in comparison to what Blizzard is currently offering and its evident how vastly easier WoW has become. I just hope they discontinue this trend now or Cat raids will be solo-able while wearing level 1 gear.

*Slays Deathwing while wearing a linen shirt and wielding a foam sword*

As for the ICC raid buff... meh. Its good and bad, being able to turn off the buff makes me very happy. For those RP guilds that aren't hardcore raiders its nice as it will give us a good chance at clearing the content pre-Cat.

[Grayslin]

I just hope they discontinue this trend now or Cat raids will be solo-able while wearing level 1 gear.
Heh...

They won't do it, though. They seem quite pleased with the current trend of casual accessibility of raid content and I believe they have stated that as a goal on more than one occasion.

If you want real challenge, this isn't really the game for it anymore. Personally, I'm fine with that, but I know not everyone is.

[Selash]

I'm indifferent about it, honestly. The fact that it's optional means that they recognize their hardcore audience still and are willing to leave the challenge there for them, so it's not a complete, permanent nerf. So all of you bitching about the game getting too easy should just shut up for a moment and think.

Honestly, I'm more surprised that I saw virtually no complaints that most of the Wrathful offset gear didn't have an arena rating requirement, and that Relentless gear also got ridiculously cheaper and lost all rating requirements for all pieces of it.

[Urivial]

Actually I was a little depressed about that Sel... while its nice that Im getting Relentless faster, I know I could get it just as fast with rating requirements... so I'm sad all those losers are getting it like me even though they have teams called "Lol we play for points" and "Free pointz here" Its rather annoying.


EDIT: But thats a different discussion, This raid nerf is as Sel said optional so its not like Blizz is making the game easier for EVERYONE

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Well, my general irritation is that Blizz JUST released the last wings of ICC. Instead of givnig into people complaining about how hard it is, they should've waited awhile and given people some time to cool down, and actually /know/ the fights. :/ It just seems like a lot of placating, imo.

I enjoy PvP a lot more, now that I'm able to actually get some relentless. >.> Gives me more of a chance, and makes me less squishy under Cyraelia!

[Selash]

Well, my general irritation is that Blizz JUST released the last wings of ICC. Instead of givnig into people complaining about how hard it is, they should've waited awhile and given people some time to cool down, and actually /know/ the fights. :/ It just seems like a lot of placating, imo.

Most of wrath has been placating, to be honest. And while I won't go into too explicit of specifics, nearly all of the changes Blizzard makes to this game have been at the demand of it's player base. Class nerfs and buffs, the dungeon finder system, gear system, all of the major UI changes we've seen introduced this expansion were done because people demanded them. And with WoW being so popular, it's easy to see why; With popularity comes a larger audience, and with that new audience the need to address new majorities with new demands comes with it. This is how games and ideas evolve and stay fresh and interesting. If things stayed the same all the time, people would get disinterested and abandon it, and for Blizzard, that would translate to a huge loss of profits.

I could go on, but I think that sums it up nicely.

[Urivial]

Cyt, your ok with the game being easier in PvP because it benefits you, but not ok with ICC being made easier so it benefits PvErs ;P

[Selash]

Cyt, your ok with the game being easier in PvP because it benefits you, but not ok with ICC being made easier so it benefits PvErs ;P

Trufax. :P

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Shhh.. >.>


You've got to admit however, the random dungeon is pretty awesome. It beats sitting in trade going "LFG Heroics" for a few hours, waiting for someone to pick you up.

[Anthek]

The buff has been planned and announced ever since 3.3 was released to take effect. They don't want a repeat of Sunwell, which not many people saw for being the wrap-up to BC. It's not easier, it's simply more accessible without having to play months of catch up through older raids to experience the newly released ones. No one on our realm has defeated the Lich King on 25-man yet, or even attempted heroic mode.

[Akuje]

They didnt nerf ICC< they buffed us, duh.

But that also means we need to get our kill fast before mouth breathers get it before us =(

I can promise you this though, 5% is NOT going to help anyone on Lich King if they were not already close. That fight is extremely hard, and is why only 3 10 man groups have killed it on our server.

[opalexian]

Better than boss nerfs and you can also tell it to fuck off. I approve.

Also


Cyt, your ok with the game being easier in PvP because it benefits you, but not ok with ICC being made easier so it benefits PvErs ;P

The irony of you saying this is just...irony. *cockflogs Cyrandra*

[Lailinarel]

Personally, as someone who has to pug their 25 mans and two of their 80s into ten mans, I approve. The average pug raiders barely put out the dps to down Saurfang, let alone Rotface and Festergut, it'll be nice to have a shot at this while not in a group that regularly WTFOWNZ content.

(IE I don't need to get my scrub ass carried through it and can pretend to be competent.)

[Abric]

If it is dismissible, then that means people who gauge their dick size by their game progression will continue to be able to put their dicks on the table and laugh at everyone else with inferior dicks. The world will continue on, as will our server, without a tipping of the scales of balance.

This will also mean that beating the Lich King won't be the most awesome-sauce moment anymore ... it'll be hard mode. Then it'll be an achievement. Then it'll be something else, and so on and so forth. All the while, over 60% of the people here won't experience it ... which means 40% of us have bigger dicks. Woo!

Yet, while the 40% sword fight, the other 60% will go back and see the content, with their buff, and be just as content with themselves as the group of dick-wielding internet heroes in the corner sounding like the Harley bikers from South Park.

[Swerto]

If you want real challenge, this isn't really the game for it anymore. Personally, I'm fine with that, but I know not everyone is.

Heroic raids
hard modes

not the game for a challenge my white ass.

Pretyt certain they will offer bonuses for people who decide they don't WANT the buff (extra loot/gold)

[Merytneith]

A NEW FRONT OPENS IN THE EPEEN WARS!

Quick, stalwart dick-measuring combatants! Link your World Of Logs on boss kills to prove your toons didn't have the ICC aura in their list of buffs for the boss kills! Your reputation as a badass in a video game you'd be embarrassed to admit to an employer that you play depends on it!










...Sometimes I'm glad I don't have a penis.

[Lisbet]

If it is dismissible, then that means people who gauge their dick size by their game progression will continue to be able to put their dicks on the table and laugh at everyone else with inferior dicks. The world will continue on, as will our server, without a tipping of the scales of balance.

This will also mean that beating the Lich King won't be the most awesome-sauce moment anymore ... it'll be hard mode. Then it'll be an achievement. Then it'll be something else, and so on and so forth. All the while, over 60% of the people here won't experience it ... which means 40% of us have bigger dicks. Woo!

Yet, while the 40% sword fight, the other 60% will go back and see the content, with their buff, and be just as content with themselves as the group of dick-wielding internet heroes in the corner sounding like the Harley bikers from South Park.

This - Its 5%. In two weeks it'll be 10%. In Two weeks it'll be 15%. In two weeks it'll be 20%. Etc etc etc.

INSERT BITTER, BITCHY RAIDER COMMENTS ----- > HERE:

The idea is not to "make it easy mode", its to make people like a few of us posting here happy - aka - making it accessible to lorenerds who are terrible at pushing buttons or who can't figure out WHY raiders all use the same cookie cutter spec and gems and gear -- etc etc etc.


Under no circumstances are you allowed to bitch about a 5% buff to your damage/healing/health if you haven't already killed LK once. "Easy enough as it is" is hardly okay coming from the fingers of PvPers.

I've done the LK fight , albit in 10 man. Its far from "easy mode". Mind you, when you have 5 people who can pull 10k dps a peice steadily throughout the fight, it makes it much less difficult. Yet, the fight is technical - and has A LOT of "if you stand in fire, everyone is going to fucking die" mechanics.

And I forgot what I was ranting about..

Oh yes. Now I remember. 5% isn't going to save the day - if you haven't already killed him, chances are you weren't 5% off ;p


Rawr.


/end bitchy raider rant.

[Jikara]

Oh yes. Now I remember. 5% isn't going to save the day - if you haven't already killed him, chances are you weren't 5% off ;p

True, but the 20% buff we'll have in a month or so will make quite a large difference. Not that I'm complaining though, I'm not playing WoW because I want a difficult game where death causes me to cry and slap myself. When I want that I go play EVE.

[Moknim]

As Anthek has pointed out, this isn't anything unplanned, they didn't agree with the "I'th to hard" guy this was what they wanted.

If I was a developer - I totally get it. Think if you designed sunwell - maybe 10% of the folks saw a fight in there and WAY less saw a boss, much less a boss downed. You poured your figurative heart and soul into fights that very very few people saw.

They have been moving the way of "Let everyone see the fights AND let the hardcore raiders have the achievement of defeating the hardest/biggest/baddest." For the Sunwell developers - I am happy that now people can see the fights.

I've got no issue with what they are doing. Although I have spoken with a few raiders (not on TN) who are working on hardmodes in ICC 25 - they say that it feels like Blizz made the normal fights and then reworked them to make the hardmodes whereas in Ulduar they made the hardmodes first and then reworked them for easy mode. I like the Ulduar design (but hey, I loved the Ulduar fights especially in hardmodes) and hope they do it that way - making hardmodes first and removing stuff for normal.

I don't know how you can be mad at a company who is catering to both casual and hardcore players - that covers pretty much their entire customer base. Smart business move.

[Sörröw]

I don't know how you can be mad at a company who is catering to both casual and hardcore players - that covers pretty much their entire customer base. Smart business move.

I'll quote that and leave this:

If you want a 'challenge' in PvE content.. join one of the Day 1 raiding guilds that have their shit together and will go in 'before any nerfs'.

The option is available (maybe not to all).. then again, if that option isn't available to you (lack of time/real life/No Whammies) then you probably aren't getting in there to kill the LK, anyway.

In effect, you should be one of the happier ones that you may have a chance with a full raid buff.

[Ansha]

I'd say at this point the people truly upset about these buffs are raider-elitists angry that "other people got to see it too." Because being a Have is better than being a Have-Not, and if everyone is a Have, then who can the Haves lord it over?

[Lisbet]

I'd say at this point the people truly upset about these buffs are raider-elitists angry that "other people got to see it too." Because being a Have is better than being a Have-Not, and if everyone is a Have, then who can the Haves lord it over?

Actually they're not. The buff makes the easy stuff they downed in 20 minutes to get to the hard stuff easier. Less time in farm content = good. On top of that, they have bragging rights to say the did it "before the raid/ wide buff" - which will be evident by the date on their achievement ;p

The only people who seem upset - are either people who don't raid at all, or the casual guy who thinks he's hardcore (yanno, the guy in the guild who still hasn't downed Anub 25 - regular mode).

[Heidenreich]

** warning, Heid's sense of humor is difficult to spot **

SO MANY PROS HERE THAT HAVE DOWNED LICH KING ON 10 or 25 HERE ON TNG AMIRITE?!?!? ROFL QUIT SUCKING ON YOUR RING POP AND BE HAPPY BLIZZARD ARE GIVING BADDIES A CHANCE AT KILLING THE LICH KING!!!!

I MEAN INTERCOURSE!!! The buff is hurting raiding guilds that are well.....GOOD!!! Since it is throwing off timing on bosses, cause poop dies fast.

QQ when you can accomplish shit without the buff...don't QQ if you couldn't praise Blizzard for giving you a chance.

[Akuje]

First reports:

Buff makes ICC Harder. mostly because all of our timing is completely off.

And again I said it earlier, Lis has said it, if you aren't already almost killing Lich, this isnt going to help now.

[Lisbet]

I should bite your nose off >.< I think I might. I give you 10 minutes to edit that before I delete it and make you sleep on the couch -_-

[Chikt]

I don't know, it just seems that people will always find a reason to bitch about something or call somebody else out.

I play this game to have fun and to RP. I don't give a shit about who wins PvP or who says they won a PvP fight. I don't give a shit who downs the Lich King first or did it with or without whatever raid buff. But if Raiding and PvP can enhance my RP experience, then I'll do them to RP, or just to hang out with friends.

It isn't about giving baddies a chance at downing powerful bosses, it's about everybody being able to see the content that they (Blizzard) slaved over for months. This is Wrath of the Lich King, not The Zombies of Icecrown. They want everybody to see this content, they want this expansion to go out with a bang - with all the people wanting to raid Icecrown Citadel able to raid it, finish it, and be impressed by it.

It's not all about single guilds anymore, like it was back when content was made hard enough that only a handful of people would ever see it. I cannot imagine how Blizzard feels about the fact that more people probably attempted Sunwell AFTER BC than DURING it. From a design perspective that's a failure. It would be like if Modern Warfare 2 was made so hard that only 10% of people could actually complete the singleplayer campaign.

Honestly, if this is such an issue to you, my suggestion is to get over yourself - this game isn't all about you. It's about the millions of other people playing it. And Blizzard wants them to have an equal opportunity to see content without needing to put their lives on hold to do it. Not everybody can raid so well as First Legion, or organize the dedicated, large group required to do it on a weekly basis. This is just making it so that the people that do manage to get the group once a weekend to make a push don't get so frustrated that they drop out before they're done.

EDIT: In fact, this is probably less about what the player wants, and more about what the Blizzard designers want - everybody to see the Lich King die.

[Lisbet]

Okay here's an argument I can actually have.

Dio my original point was that this buff is a good thing, that I find it extremely stupid that "non-pvers" are bitching about blizzard making things easy mode.

Raiders are more annoyed when the NON RAIDING vocal majority bitches about ease of content they haven't experienced, then we are about people complaining when things are to hard. Thus Heid's less then tactful response - we WANT people to be able to see the content. Sure we don't get the awesomeness of "I'm the only one who's done it" any more, but we have special 'just for us' stuff designed for us.

I've tried to make this point before - much to the amusement of you pvp buffs - if you're not doing it, and you don't like it, and its not fun - why in sam's hell are you bitching about it?

[Chikt]

Okay here's an argument I can actually have.

Dio my original point was that this buff is a good thing, that I find it extremely stupid that "non-pvers" are bitching about blizzard making things easy mode.

Raiders are more annoyed when the NON RAIDING vocal majority bitches about ease of content they haven't experienced, then we are about people complaining when things are to hard. Thus Heid's less then tactful response - we WANT people to be able to see the content. Sure we don't get the awesomeness of "I'm the only one who's done it" any more, but we have special 'just for us' stuff designed for us.

I've tried to make this point before - much to the amusement of you pvp buffs - if you're not doing it, and you don't like it, and its not fun - why in sam's hell are you bitching about it?

I'm not bitching about it. Anybody who is bitching about it is a moron.

I'm saying this wasn't done because of you guys, for the players bitching, or anybody else. I'm saying it was done for the Blizzard guys who put all the work into making that raid.

That's all I'm saying.

[Sett]

Nice change. Peeps get to see more content with that 'extra' boost.

Blizz's keeping their word from wanting more open to peeps. That's what impresses me the most is Blizz actually going through with this.

[Lisbet]

I'm not bitching about it. Anybody who is bitching about it is a moron.

We were all referencing this post Dio ----

ICC hasn't even been out FOUR MONTHS, and they're already nerfing it? What the fuck is this? WoW going easy mode or something?

A "non raider" - aka, a member of a rp guild who's goal is PVP ONLY - (no offense to cytiana) complaining about "easy mode".


Another -

LOLOLOLOLOL Its been going easy mode for a LONG time.

Raven Cross doesn't raid outside of pugs, do they? Though I do understand he was responding to the above quote, it's like a mouth breathing hillbilly who hasn't finished the 3rd grade saying your Highschool Advanced Chem 3 is easy mode because the teacher lets you bring notes to the test. No offense.

[Chikt]

A "non raider" - aka, a member of a rp guild who's goal is PVP ONLY - (no offense to cytiana) complaining about "easy mode".

Raven Cross doesn't raid outside of pugs, do they? Though I do understand he was responding to the above quote, it's like a mouth breathing hillbilly who hasn't finished the 3rd grade saying your Highschool Advanced Chem 3 is easy mode because the teacher lets you bring notes to the test. No offense.

Right, and I'm saying they're morons for bitching about it. This is just like having different difficulty levels in games, only they're being patched in. It's like releasing a game with the hardest difficulty, and then releasing patches with lower difficulty levels to supplement it.

If people think that's dumb, they're being silly. Accessibility is a huge issue in games - you don't want only a handful of people to be able to experience your major content. You want everybody to be able to experience it.

EDIT: And I think comparing casual raiders to "mouth breathing hillbillies" is a pretty inflammatory statement. It's going to get you nowhere trying to make a point.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

A "non raider" - aka, a member of a rp guild who's goal is PVP ONLY - (no offense to cytiana) complaining about "easy mode".

I'd raid a lot more, if my computer wasn't such a pain-in-the-rear. But, I know the difficulty of raids-- I raided 10M Ulduar with Fabled Order, as a really horrible ranged DPS, and find the challenge to be the best part of the raid. Not the loot, albeit showing off new gear is wonderful, nor the wonderful achieveables.. (Dammit. I really shouldn't inadvertantly debate my thought.) You get my point. >;

[Sörröw]

The point, Cytiana, that Lisbet is making.. is that it will continue to still be hard :)

~You will still get that thrill because for ~you they will still be hard. Now, another guild that, say, gets server firsts on every new piece of content.. they may say.. 'wow, easy mode'.. then again, they've probably completed it 3-4 times now.

[Urivial]

Raven Cross doesn't raid outside of pugs, do they? Though I do understand he was responding to the above quote, it's like a mouth breathing hillbilly who hasn't finished the 3rd grade saying your Highschool Advanced Chem 3 is easy mode because the teacher lets you bring notes to the test. No offense.

And yet, I'm offended. But on topic, can you really say the game overall has not been made easier and easier overall? I know I wasn't around for vanilla WoW so I can only speak from what others have said, but it seems like blizz has dumbed wow done a LOT. I never said raiding wasn't hard. I respect you andfirst legion for your many server achievements. Please don't insult people under a "No offense" unless you've actually read what I typed. Which was only one sentence. LOL I just nerdrwged over my Ipod touch. Gnight.

[Skaadvik]

everyone should stop assuming everyone else thinks they are baddies or stupid.

take your buff and enjoy it. most of us (myself included) won't see Arthas without it.

[Chikt]

I don't understand what the big deal is, anyway. It's optional, it's not like it's a nerf OVERALL to the instance.

[Skaadvik]

it's a nerf to my inability to see endgame content without my dear friends in FL carrying me like the did in black temple two days before WotLK.

[Tylorvias]

Some of us -don't- raid (I assume) anymore or at all because it's too easy, but that doesn't mean we don't want to. Hence why you see some PvP'ers complain. That group of us wants to raid, but it's sooooooooooooo lawl easy mode that...well, it's not much fun.

Before I get jumped by potentially rabid PvE'ers let it be known that for the entirety of BC I was a raid leader who progressed through BT and left for personal reasons before sunwell hit. I came back in wrath eager to start raiding again and it's...what the fuck? VoA? OS? EoE? Sure the fight's could be tough, but the lack of design at -all- just giant rooms with a boss in it? Really? Naxx doesn't count, it was just recycled and buffed, the only way to have a real challenge on your hands was to do OS3D and even that wasn't too incredibly hard (I WENT THERE) and don't tell me 6 minute Maly was something. I could put a time limit on any boss in the game and make it difficult, the fact that it's two easy phases followed by a retard check doesn't impress me.

Also to note, 10 and 25 mans for every raid? Buwaaaaaaah? I understand the whole catering "we want everyone to see it" I understand they trying to profit from both, and that's fine. But the problem is when you try to give both ends of the spectrum what they want in the same game you end up cheapening your product and giving neither audience a true sense of fulfillment. Hardcore raiders aren't the only ones to see it anymore. Casual people are annoyed by linking achievements to get into raids, gear scores, and cookie cutter specs. I know it isn't the popular, practical or ever plausible response, but I think if Blizzard wants to fix a lot of their complaints (So they can get a whole new batch of them) then they need to either A) Get it over with and make this game a cake walk, which seems to be the road they are headed down. Make it a casual game for casual people, or: B) Stop what they are doing and take it back to Vanilla/BC style raiding and PvP. The best get the best and the rest...well...they're the rest.

Personally, I prefer option B, but I'm just the kind of guy who likes a massive challenge and doesn't give a flying fuck about everyone else and their gaming or if they see content or not. The wonderful thing about this was that there were so few who were on top that the rest were in a happy place of still being able to compete with one another and have lots of competition, just not on an end game level they hadn't done anything for. Let the best be the best and they can shit on the rest, and they are the ones who deserve to be recognized as the best. Do they have lives? Most likely, no, WoW is their life, and if it is going to be their life the of course they are going to be mad when the casual guy can come along and keep up just as well as them.

And this achievement linking bullshit is really getting to be too much. "I downed Anub25." Well -my guild- downed Anub hardmode 25." "Bitches ain't got nothin', I just got out of my tribute to insanity run."

It's asinine at best. It's like debating which juggler is better through small technical tweaks of form. It's losing the big overall feel of "We can down Anub!" To "We can down him blindfolded and with our hands behind our backs" and just cheapening the whole damn thing altogether. People will on their own come up with ways to make the game more fun and interesting and make fights harder (HSM 5 manning illidan in BC after the nerf comes to mind). But when you tighten everything up so much and make so many specific tiers of being better it just gets lame fast. Too much specification kills any creativity and starts giving the game a "lol easy mode" feel for those who do clear it at the bottom tier.

After all, Arthas should be this big hard overall end game encounter, and yet he's already been killed by three different groups on our server. KJ was nowhere -near- that hard, blizzard themselves said he was the most difficult encounter they ever had and ever will make. A lot of people argue that 25 man hard mode Arthas is the real Arthas. But why not the reverse? Why isn't the 10 man regular mode Arthas the real one and the 25 man hardmode a perfected jacked up on riods Arthas? In the end, it's impossible to tell because it all comes down to speculation. After all, that dead ten man Arthas is labeled Arthas and sitting at your feet, rather dead looking, and that Arthas is just as real as the one in 25 man hard mode which makes my ten man Arthas just as real as the roid raging Arthas. So if the hardest content is to clear the same guy three times over on three increasing tiers of difficulty? Ya. Fuck that. That is too easy. Do it or don't. Not I did it like this under these conditions or "Well if he were only ten man and a bit easier our best ten could get him". Again. Fuck that. It's not my idea of fun to have to beat the same end game boss two or three times over to be endgame. I want one endgame boss, one fight, one difficulty. That is why people bitch about the game getting too easy and that is why there is some serious validity to their statements.

TL;DR - This game is too easy while trying to keep hard elements. Either cater to the casual crowd or to the hardcore crowd because doing both just cheapens the experience for everyone.

[Lisbet]

Anyone with "Vanilla was better" blinders on is silly. Vanilla wasn't harder in "its hard" scale. It was harder because stuff was buggy, broken, untested, a PAIN IN THE ASS to get 40 people to do, a giant bloody time sink.

Most people don't remember that a BRD run took ALL DAY. Brd. A 5 man instance. That's not "harder", that's just longer. Don't get me started on trying to 5 man Strat for quests. Impossible.

Ever try and farm for flasks? Oh ho ho. One Black Lotus spawn in one area per day (once it was picked it was moved, but could not respawn in that ZONE again that day). Once you had all the mats it was either a clear of Scholo, or a clear of BWL for alchemy tables!

So no - Vanilla wasn't easier. It just required a lot more TIME, and required a lot more patience when your razorgore encounter is bugged and only half your raid's id was reset from last week and you have to spend all night talking to a GM to fix the issue (Although I might still have that screenshot somewhere >.>)

If you quit raiding because its easier, you're an idiot. 10 man raiding is a godsend - especially for people who play to raid, but can't afford a thousand dollar rig to combat the lag you get when people bloody HEROISM.

Oh no - people aren't SUPER JEALOUS of my shiny gear and my ability to clear the first half dozen bosses in an instance any more - I'm taking my ball and going home, fuck you blizzard! <---- Its bullshit and you know it, attitudes like that is why it seems less fun, not because it is any less fun.

I'll say it again - if you quit raiding because it was to easy, you had better have been a member of Death and Taxes(in Vanilla), or Ensida, or Paragon, or Stars. You had better have spent 20+ hours a week raiding in Vanilla - Cause I'm pretty sure the raiders on TN spent at least 16 hours a week on it, not counting the prep time and gold farming and attunements.

You had better failed out of college, gotten a divorce, damn near lost your job over it, and had your RL friends wondering 'Where the fuck have you been for the last 9 months' - because the time sink that was vanilla raiding was quite the bitch on RL.

In BC I sure hope your guild killed KJ before the nerf. The first one, not the 'made easymode' patch that still had KJ hitting your face for "FIFTY THOUSAND FUCKING DAMANGE"

Wrath raids are less of a time sink - and 6 patches later they're faceroll (See sarth 3d or ulduar normal modes), but that doesn't make them less difficult in the beginning.

As for you being anoyed at 10 man - I love 10 man. They're usually over-tuned to begin with, and if you do them with 10 man gear, they stay fairly difficult ;p Its not blizzard's fault if you're pugging 25m ICC and then complain when 10icc isn't as difficult.








~~~I totally wrote half of this at 8am, and the other half at 9am. I take no responsibility for anything written pre-coffee.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

/mails Lisbet coffee?


I missed all the good stuff! I started playing about 2 months before WotLK released, and was still lost and confused in the forests of Ashenvale while all this awesomeness was going down. =[

[Chikt]

You know, I remember an argument JUST like this back when they said that raids will only require 10 to 25 people in future, rather than 40. Something about how it reduced difficulty.

And how do people feel about that now?

I still say that differing levels of difficulty and accessibility is a good thing. They have They have 10 mans for casual players. 10 man hard modes for practice, more hardcore casuals, or gearing for 25 mans. 25 mans for large groups of people. 25 man hardmodes for large, badass groups of people. And now they are adding another modifier to change that even further - the OPTIONAL ability to lower the difficulty further, meaning you can get in practice for 25 man hardmodes before you try out the "real thing" without the handy buff.

Cry some more, IMO.

[Lisbet]

/mails Lisbet coffee?


I missed all the good stuff! I started playing about 2 months before WotLK released, and was still lost and confused in the forests of Ashenvale while all this awesomeness was going down. =[

I look fondly back at Vanilla as some of the best times I ever had playing this game - not because I ever thought it was harder, but because of good memories of friends. BC's the same, I had some wonderful experiences, and throughout my WoW time I have made some wonderful friends.

I don't at all miss 40 man raiding and all of the 'new ways' to tank and spank we had then. I don't at all miss doing the Ony attunement quest 75 separate times 'for the guild'.

The memories are nice, but I like that things are accessable. It makes guild recruiting easier, makes enjoying the game easier, and makes more time for my 'non wow stuff' because I'm not spending 8 hours a day raiding ;p

[CytianaMoonarrow]

I remember.. the one time we went to do BWL, we had like 15 people ready to go for it, and only 3 or 4 people had actually done the attunement. Fun night, actually. After spending an hour (level 80, huzzah) to get everyone attuned, we tried to zone in and..

Additional instances cannot be launched.

Huzzah for Blizzard.

[Gorvena]

There's a LOT of short-sighted reasoning being flung like monkey poo in this thread and it makes me laugh.

"Too easy" - this is not a pecker-measuring thread.
"Vanilla was easy" - bullshit, pure and simple. 40 man raids are like herding cats.
"Casuals" - this is particularly offensive. Like Lisbet said, unless you are some sort of shut-in basement virgin with no job and no real life friends. Ever log off of WoW to watch a movie or surf porn or whatever? Then you're "not hardcore enough."

And for the love of pete, none of the boss encounters in any of the raids are "easy" the first few times you run them, unless you have BossKillers or some such on your second screen and are screaming "MOAR DOTS!!!" in vent the whole time to a group of sheeple who will follow your every instruction without question (and also have BK up on their second monitors).

Is Naxx (for example) easy now? Hell yes. Then again, we're in freaking T9 and T10 and mages no longer have to worry about decursing. But I sure as hell decursed when we were barely in T7 and having to pull some unknowns into our group to make 25.

Anyway, blah blah blah, ramble ramble, stop being stupid and selfish (everyone please) and either discuss the optional buff or go read something else.

Damn...

[Abric]

Some of us -don't- raid (I assume) anymore or at all because it's too easy, but that doesn't mean we don't want to. Hence why you see some PvP'ers complain. That group of us wants to raid, but it's sooooooooooooo lawl easy mode that...well, it's not much fun.


Heh, I'm going to rag on you about that statement as well, Demitri. It doesn't make any sense. "I don't do it because it is too easy." So you haven't done it, so how do you know its too easy? Now if you beat all of the content (heroic or non-heroic, your choice) and decide not to continue? Then... yes... I can agree with someone saying they stopped because there was no difficulty.

To the rest of what you said, well, I can understand where you are coming from. I don't agree with it, but you make a decent point on your train of thought.

[Broxigan]

I remember.. the one time we went to do BWL, we had like 15 people ready to go for it, and only 3 or 4 people had actually done the attunement. Fun night, actually. After spending an hour (level 80, huzzah) to get everyone attuned, we tried to zone in and..

Additional instances cannot be launched.

Huzzah for Blizzard.

Additional instances cannot be launched.
Additional instances cannot be launched.
Additional instances cannot be launched.
Additional instances cannot be launched.
Additional instances cannot be launched.
Additional instances cannot be launched.
Additional instances cannot be launched.
Additional instances cannot be launched.

[Agnarr]

(short version at the end)


Most people don't remember that a BRD run took ALL DAY. Brd. A 5 man instance. That's not "harder", that's just longer. Don't get me started on trying to 5 man Strat for quests. Impossible.
Only if you were horrible. 2-3 hours for a full run of BRD if you and your four friends weren't idiots.
Stratholme? Quests hard? LOL. If you mentioned the original release of Scholomance, I might have agreed. But they nerfed that after what, the first two months of the game? Shit, I duoed* Scholomance at level 60 (wasn't quite good enough to solo it).

* admitedly, we got a third person to join to help us take out the magic-immune skeletons, then he left after we got them. More of a time-saver than necessity


Ever try and farm for flasks? Oh ho ho. One Black Lotus spawn in one area per day (once it was picked it was moved, but could not respawn in that ZONE again that day). Once you had all the mats it was either a clear of Scholo, or a clear of BWL for alchemy tables!
Yeah, that was annoying. Though I don't think the black lotus couldn't respawn there again that day, just it would randomly respawn in one of the zones it could spawn in.


You had better failed out of college, gotten a divorce, damn near lost your job over it, and had your RL friends wondering 'Where the fuck have you been for the last 9 months' - because the time sink that was vanilla raiding was quite the bitch on RL.
Bullcrap. I raided with a coalition (one that was told we would never progress anywhere, because we weren't a single guild dedicated to raiding) and we went 2-3 evenings a week, for 3-4 hours each night. Stomped the crap out of MC and were working on Nefarion (had him downed, but wasn't "farm status" yet. But, I think we had the advantage of having a pool of players that weren't mouth-breathers, so when you tell them to stand over there, and then move over there, they could do it competently. But then BC was on the horizon and lots of people lost interest, so that was as far as we got. Not bad for like 6 months of raiding.
But sure, that same group in WotLK...we'd have probably been farming the raids after working on them for a month, tops. Although with the ease to gear up in WotLK, you wouldn't really need to farm the raid. I will agree in that "vanilla" raids weren't harder, but because of the mechanics of them (gearing up, mostly) it took longer to progress.

tl;dr version
Vanilla raiding was more time consuming because gear came in slowly, and it was more difficult only because you had to coordinate (and gear up) 40 people instead of 25.

Though upon thinking about it, having 40 people meant if you were able to carry like 5% of the raid, you could have a couple of mouth-breathers in the raid. With 25, that drops to only 1.

[Keldorin]

The Pale Heart's raiding group is in a bit of a stick right now.

We can't seem to find a third permanent healer and we lack the time to really sit there and wipe for hours to figure a boss out. So, any new boss strategies are generally put together over the week and then implemented the next time we raid.

As of right now we are planning to use the 5% buff as a crutch. We all figure that, while it is a help, it is not a dominating buff that will be carrying us yet. This way we can get a bit of an edge on the game and figure out the strategies to the bosses we are having trouble with and then remove the buff when we no longer need it.

[Merytneith]

The Pale Heart's raiding group is in a bit of a stick right now.

We can't seem to find a third permanent healer and we lack the time to really sit there and wipe for hours to figure a boss out. So, any new boss strategies are generally put together over the week and then implemented the next time we raid.

As of right now we are planning to use the 5% buff as a crutch. We all figure that, while it is a help, it is not a dominating buff that will be carrying us yet. This way we can get a bit of an edge on the game and figure out the strategies to the bosses we are having trouble with and then remove the buff when we no longer need it.

In other words, you're using the buff option exactly the way Blizz intended it to be used. Sounds reasonable to me.

I don't see optional buffs like this as anything but an intelligent, customer-friendly approach. Basically, we have a product manufacturer that is adding ways for you to customize your experience with the product. A game that is impossible to beat isn't fun-- it's frustrating. And a game that's too easy won't hold your attention for long. Blizzard has added a lot more dials for players to use to fine-tune the encounters to fit the player's own group.

Ultimately, there will always be people who fall at the extreme ends of the spectrum-- the ones for whom no amount of heroic versions or overtuning is enough of a challenge, and others for whom the act of pressing buttons in sequence and moving out of fire is an insurmountable feat. Best of luck to both of them in their future pursuits, but WoW is not the game for them. C'est la vie.

[Keldorin]

In other words, you're using the buff option exactly the way Blizz intended it to be used. Sounds reasonable to me.

I don't see optional buffs like this as anything but an intelligent, customer-friendly approach. Basically, we have a product manufacturer that is adding ways for you to customize your experience with the product. A game that is impossible to beat isn't fun-- it's frustrating. And a game that's too easy won't hold your attention for long. Blizzard has added a lot more dials for players to use to fine-tune the encounters to fit the player's own group.

Ultimately, there will always be people who fall at the extreme ends of the spectrum-- the ones for whom no amount of heroic versions or overtuning is enough of a challenge, and others for whom the act of pressing buttons in sequence and moving out of fire is an insurmountable feat. Best of luck to both of them in their future pursuits, but WoW is not the game for them. C'est la vie.

Yay for efficiency!

[opalexian]

I remember.. the one time we went to do BWL, we had like 15 people ready to go for it, and only 3 or 4 people had actually done the attunement. Fun night, actually. After spending an hour (level 80, huzzah) to get everyone attuned, we tried to zone in and..

Additional instances cannot be launched.

Huzzah for Blizzard.

THIS WAS VERY DISPLEASING. WE SHOULD TRY AGAIN JUST TO SPURN BLIZZARD.

Already had a heated arguement on vent that I dont want to relive. All I'll say is that Blizz's point in doing this is allowing more people to see the ultimate game content-something that DID NOT HAPPEN in BC. While perhaps not the most popular of places, most people didnt' get to see the Sunwell until they were 80 and fucking around. To put this in other terms, Blizz spent all that time and money developing this dungeon and ALMOST NO ONE SAW IT WHEN IT WAS THE BEST IN GAME. They don't want that to happen again, and I can dig that...especially if I have to keep relying on trade pugs to fucking get in to ICC (25 now, but still.) -_-

[Lailinarel]

I want one endgame boss, one fight, one difficulty.
TL;DR - This game is too easy while trying to keep hard elements. Either cater to the casual crowd or to the hardcore crowd because doing both just cheapens the experience for everyone.

I've got a lot of comments to make about your entire statement, but I just find that first line entertaining. So you're telling me that don't enjoy a game because it has different optional levels of difficulty? From a pvp standpoint that's saying that you should always fight only enemies who are absolutely the best in the battlegroup, sporting the best gear out there.

From a gamer standpoint in general that's just silly. Different people are going to have different levels of skill at games. On one level it's going to be due to reaction times, on another it's gonna be due to a lack of understanding of calculus to figure out how to min max your gear on your own. Giving people options of easier encounters makes sense, and it sounds to me like someone is just sad about the fact they can't ram their e-peen into trade and get it stroked for doing something that nobody else other than them can.

Get over it. It's an MMO. It ain't about just your penis, it's about 10 million, some bigger, some smaller. Too damn bad.

Also.


It would be like if Modern Warfare 2 was made so hard that only 10% of people could actually complete the singleplayer campaign.

My point exactly, and Modern Warfare 2 has something in common with WoW!

You can change the difficulty setting! *Gasps*

[Ansha]

I'd say at this point the people truly upset about these buffs are raider-elitists angry that "other people got to see it too." Because being a Have is better than being a Have-Not, and if everyone is a Have, then who can the Haves lord it over?

Funny how I was right that a raider would take the attitude I mentioned above.

Strange that it was a former raider, though.

I knew I left off part of my previous thought when I wrote that post, and should amend it to say that the other group upset about these changes is the group of people who do not want to see the content for whatever reason, and want no one else to see it too.

Speaking as a former raider, I say let everyone see it.

Also, Lisbet, I could have sworn that pre-BC, when they announced 10/25 raids, that you complained on these very boards that "it would prevent you from playing with all of your friends."

But maybe I'm mis-remembering.

[Akuje]

Funny how I was right that a raider would take the attitude I mentioned above.



No, no one has taken your attitude in the thread at all. People are crying raiding is too easy and its getting easier, and the "elitist" raiders are saying its a good thing, but they have no place to talk about how easy content they don't do is.

[Ansha]

No, no one has taken your attitude in the thread at all. People are crying raiding is too easy and its getting easier, and the "elitist" raiders are saying its a good thing, but they have no place to talk about how easy content they don't do is.

No one, huh?


Also to note, 10 and 25 mans for every raid? Buwaaaaaaah? I understand the whole catering "we want everyone to see it" I understand they trying to profit from both, and that's fine. But the problem is when you try to give both ends of the spectrum what they want in the same game you end up cheapening your product and giving neither audience a true sense of fulfillment. Hardcore raiders aren't the only ones to see it anymore. Casual people are annoyed by linking achievements to get into raids, gear scores, and cookie cutter specs. I know it isn't the popular, practical or ever plausible response, but I think if Blizzard wants to fix a lot of their complaints (So they can get a whole new batch of them) then they need to either A) Get it over with and make this game a cake walk, which seems to be the road they are headed down. Make it a casual game for casual people, or: B) Stop what they are doing and take it back to Vanilla/BC style raiding and PvP. The best get the best and the rest...well...they're the rest.

Personally, I prefer option B, but I'm just the kind of guy who likes a massive challenge and doesn't give a flying fuck about everyone else and their gaming or if they see content or not. The wonderful thing about this was that there were so few who were on top that the rest were in a happy place of still being able to compete with one another and have lots of competition, just not on an end game level they hadn't done anything for. Let the best be the best and they can shit on the rest, and they are the ones who deserve to be recognized as the best. Do they have lives? Most likely, no, WoW is their life, and if it is going to be their life the of course they are going to be mad when the casual guy can come along and keep up just as well as them.

And this achievement linking bullshit is really getting to be too much. "I downed Anub25." Well -my guild- downed Anub hardmode 25." "Bitches ain't got nothin', I just got out of my tribute to insanity run."

It's asinine at best. It's like debating which juggler is better through small technical tweaks of form. It's losing the big overall feel of "We can down Anub!" To "We can down him blindfolded and with our hands behind our backs" and just cheapening the whole damn thing altogether. People will on their own come up with ways to make the game more fun and interesting and make fights harder (HSM 5 manning illidan in BC after the nerf comes to mind). But when you tighten everything up so much and make so many specific tiers of being better it just gets lame fast. Too much specification kills any creativity and starts giving the game a "lol easy mode" feel for those who do clear it at the bottom tier.

After all, Arthas should be this big hard overall end game encounter, and yet he's already been killed by three different groups on our server. KJ was nowhere -near- that hard, blizzard themselves said he was the most difficult encounter they ever had and ever will make. A lot of people argue that 25 man hard mode Arthas is the real Arthas. But why not the reverse? Why isn't the 10 man regular mode Arthas the real one and the 25 man hardmode a perfected jacked up on riods Arthas? In the end, it's impossible to tell because it all comes down to speculation. After all, that dead ten man Arthas is labeled Arthas and sitting at your feet, rather dead looking, and that Arthas is just as real as the one in 25 man hard mode which makes my ten man Arthas just as real as the roid raging Arthas. So if the hardest content is to clear the same guy three times over on three increasing tiers of difficulty? Ya. Fuck that. That is too easy. Do it or don't. Not I did it like this under these conditions or "Well if he were only ten man and a bit easier our best ten could get him". Again. Fuck that. It's not my idea of fun to have to beat the same end game boss two or three times over to be endgame. I want one endgame boss, one fight, one difficulty. That is why people bitch about the game getting too easy and that is why there is some serious validity to their statements.

TL;DR - This game is too easy while trying to keep hard elements. Either cater to the casual crowd or to the hardcore crowd because doing both just cheapens the experience for everyone.

[Lisbet]

Three years ago? Sure, I probably said that. I don't remember, but knowing me, I did probably say that three years ago when BC was coming out.

Its also three years later, and I've seen how much -better- 25 man, and even 10 man raiding can be.

buff = good
25 man = good
10 man = good
hardmodes = good
'norm' modes = good.

The only ones compaining about raiding being to easy - again - are people who talk big but really were never raiders, or people who've only raided in pugs.

[Akuje]

No one, huh?

Thats a baddie in everyway, so he doesn't count.

[Ansha]

Thats a baddie in everyway, so he doesn't count.

Hey, at least I labeled him properly as a 'former raider.'

[Tylorvias]

Edit: Not worth it, people don't know how to have a proper discussion without it devolving into a fight, back to lurking until a lot of you grow up.

[-Teleara-]

What the hell is a raid?

[Lisbet]

Edit: Not worth it, people don't know how to have a proper discussion without it devolving into a fight, back to lurking until a lot of you grow up.

I'm just going to go ahead and quote myself -- >

~~~I totally wrote half of this at 8am, and the other half at 9am. I take no responsibility for anything written pre-coffee.

Nothing I write pre-coffee can be taken as inteligent, thought out, or productive. Pretty much, if its between 3am and 8:45am, then I'm probably still half asleep. If you take offense to something I posted in that time frame - I'm sorry.



What the hell is a raid?

Its like ganking, only with 24 other people, and if you get counter ganked, the target will stand there and wait for you to res, eat, buff, and re-stealth.

[Swerto]

What the hell is a raid?


Its like ganking, only with 24 other people, and if you get counter ganked, the target will stand there and wait for you to res, eat, buff, and re-stealth.

I'd sig it if I had room, because is the best description of a raid I've ever seen.

[Sörröw]

Anyone with "Vanilla was better" blinders on is silly. Vanilla wasn't harder in "its hard" scale. It was harder because stuff was buggy, broken, untested, a PAIN IN THE ASS to get 40 people to do, a giant bloody time sink.

Most people don't remember that a BRD run took ALL DAY. Brd. A 5 man instance. That's not "harder", that's just longer. Don't get me started on trying to 5 man Strat for quests. Impossible.

Ever try and farm for flasks? Oh ho ho. One Black Lotus spawn in one area per day (once it was picked it was moved, but could not respawn in that ZONE again that day). Once you had all the mats it was either a clear of Scholo, or a clear of BWL for alchemy tables!

So no - Vanilla wasn't easier. It just required a lot more TIME, and required a lot more patience when your razorgore encounter is bugged and only half your raid's id was reset from last week and you have to spend all night talking to a GM to fix the issue (Although I might still have that screenshot somewhere >.>)

If you quit raiding because its easier, you're an idiot. 10 man raiding is a godsend - especially for people who play to raid, but can't afford a thousand dollar rig to combat the lag you get when people bloody HEROISM.

Oh no - people aren't SUPER JEALOUS of my shiny gear and my ability to clear the first half dozen bosses in an instance any more - I'm taking my ball and going home, fuck you blizzard! <---- Its bullshit and you know it, attitudes like that is why it seems less fun, not because it is any less fun.

I'll say it again - if you quit raiding because it was to easy, you had better have been a member of Death and Taxes(in Vanilla), or Ensida, or Paragon, or Stars. You had better have spent 20+ hours a week raiding in Vanilla - Cause I'm pretty sure the raiders on TN spent at least 16 hours a week on it, not counting the prep time and gold farming and attunements.

You had better failed out of college, gotten a divorce, damn near lost your job over it, and had your RL friends wondering 'Where the fuck have you been for the last 9 months' - because the time sink that was vanilla raiding was quite the bitch on RL.

In BC I sure hope your guild killed KJ before the nerf. The first one, not the 'made easymode' patch that still had KJ hitting your face for "FIFTY THOUSAND FUCKING DAMANGE"

Wrath raids are less of a time sink - and 6 patches later they're faceroll (See sarth 3d or ulduar normal modes), but that doesn't make them less difficult in the beginning.

As for you being anoyed at 10 man - I love 10 man. They're usually over-tuned to begin with, and if you do them with 10 man gear, they stay fairly difficult ;p Its not blizzard's fault if you're pugging 25m ICC and then complain when 10icc isn't as difficult.


~~~I totally wrote half of this at 8am, and the other half at 9am. I take no responsibility for anything written pre-coffee.

I just have to say (and I'll catch up reading this thread) this turned me on. Something about lisbet and this line:

"FIFTY THOUSAND FUCKING DAMANGE"

Mmm... ;)

Such passionate anger!

[Raziel]

Edit: Not worth it, people don't know how to have a proper discussion without it devolving into a fight, back to lurking until a lot of you grow up.

There are plenty of MMOs out there thatare all about massive raids to the point of Kerafym-Like encounters (required over 200 people to kill him that lasted over an hour; only one Kerafym per server). Hell, it requires hundreds of people to push a city in WarHammer, and in the end you get a 40vs40 PvP battle that you need to win within a time limit to get to the next phase, which there are two phases after that to reach the boss.

The difficulty of the encounter isn't the encounter itself, but relying on other people to be presence and do what they need to do when they need to do it in order to get what needs to be done done in order to surpass the encounter.

[Moknim]

I'm just going to go ahead and quote myself -- >

Nothing I write pre-coffee can be taken as inteligent, thought out, or productive. Pretty much, if its between 3am and 8:45am, then I'm probably still half asleep. If you take offense to something I posted in that time frame - I'm sorry.

Lisbet - you can't really say something and then later say "nah, just kidding don't pay attention to what I said before coffee" because people don't buy it. Just stand by what you said, it was what you were feeling at the time and is totally legitimate. Demitri was bitchy in his post, you can be bitchy in yours.

Demitri - I totally understand wanting a massive challenge in 25 man raids. I get it. I don't understand not being okay with 25 man Hardmode being exactly that thing. Granted I love the 10/25 split (mainly because I enjoy 10 mans more than 25 mans and this lets me see the same content 25'ers are looking at but in the raid size I love) - it basically seems like you are pissed that people have access to the fights (albeit in a toned down version). I'm trying to think of an analogy - its like if you weren't able to afford a Ferrari (since you aren't doing ICC25 HM) and aren't upset about that, but ARE pissed that others were able to afford lesser 'performance cars' that aren't anywhere near the performance level of the Ferrari but are still enjoyable in their own right. "I'm not upset I can't have a Ferrari, but man am I pissed that guy got Honda Civic Si"

Disclaimer - I know nothing about cars, this is just all I could think of and the Honda Civic Si was the top google result when I plugged in "inexpensive performance car" - Akuje can correct me

[Merytneith]

Disclaimer - I know nothing about cars, this is just all I could think of and the Honda Civic Si was the top google result when I plugged in "inexpensive performance car" - Akuje can correct me
If the comparison is to a Ferrari, then hell-- a Chevy Corvette is an inexpensive performance car! (Base model starts at just $44,000.)

[Urivial]

Car Salesman eh Mery? Learn something new about people everyday!

[Merytneith]

Car Salesman eh Mery? Learn something new about people everyday!

No, just an enthusiastic sports car lover. <3

[Lailinarel]

Close Moknim, only it sounds more like he says he can in fact afford it but it isn't good enough for him (despite having never driven it cause he drove an older model once), and the idea of other people having anything less than what he can afford is offensive.

If I come across as offensive it's because people who think the game should not only be balanced around them, but also offer nothing to those less skilled strike me as offensive themselves. Yeah, I'm a decent player and I run ten mans with my guild of friends, and yeah, some of em are in fact bad. Does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to play the same game as you? Not making you play on our field or at our level. We just wanna play.

Also, the 5% buff is far from game breaking, in 25 man festergut, if every one of your dps sustains 7k you'll still barely down him after the 6.5k dps boost your raid recieves (putting you at about 125k) before then enrage timer, assuming nobody screws up on spores or chains vomits and gets killed.

P.S. Back in my day we didn't have traction control systems, and our only brakes were the handbrakes! Damn kids don't know how lucky ya got it.

[Akuje]

If the comparison is to a Ferrari, then hell-- a Chevy Corvette is an inexpensive performance car! (Base model starts at just $44,000.)

Right but you picked the wrong car. The corvette is very lack luster compared to say, a Nissan GTR which can be had used for $50,000 optioned out, but it actually can outperform the Ferrari.

And that would be where we would have a problem. If the in game "Ferrari" is out performed by the budget GTR then people have a reason to be upset. That is not the case.


And like I said in the middle of all the craziness earlier, this buff is actually hurting established guilds, as we had the fight down to a "science" and we are pushing phases differently/early resulting in a whole new mess of problems.

[Grayslin]

I run ten mans with my guild of friends, and yeah, some of em are in fact bad.
(He's talking about me)

[Lailinarel]

(He's talking about me)

You're not bad, you're just a DK tank. There's a difference!

[Grayslin]

So you're saying I suck with style?

Edit: ...hmm, maybe I should consider rephrasing that.

[Lailinarel]

So you're saying I suck with style?

Edit: ...hmm, maybe I should consider rephrasing that.

You are the best at sucking of anyone I've never actually met.

[Grayslin]

So many ways to interpret that... several of them disturbing.

lolz.

[Emyi]

So many ways to interpret that... several of them disturbing.

lolz.

Be glad it was of and not off.

[Tylorvias]

Demitri - I totally understand wanting a massive challenge in 25 man raids. I get it. I don't understand not being okay with 25 man Hardmode being exactly that thing. Granted I love the 10/25 split (mainly because I enjoy 10 mans more than 25 mans and this lets me see the same content 25'ers are looking at but in the raid size I love) - it basically seems like you are pissed that people have access to the fights (albeit in a toned down version). I'm trying to think of an analogy - its like if you weren't able to afford a Ferrari (since you aren't doing ICC25 HM) and aren't upset about that, but ARE pissed that others were able to afford lesser 'performance cars' that aren't anywhere near the performance level of the Ferrari but are still enjoyable in their own right. "I'm not upset I can't have a Ferrari, but man am I pissed that guy got Honda Civic Si"


Read the effing TL;DR, it has nothing to do with what other people get to see as I said earlier, I don't care what other people do or don't do with their game time.

Also, Lailinarel, show me where I wanted the game to be balanced around me, I stated my preferences which is a bit different. My big point that I attempted to make was that for blizz to get people to stop complaining they need to either A) make the gamer stupid easy or B) make it harder like it used to be. (If across the board people are complaining about the game getting easier more than ever before, then guess what? There's a REALLY effing good chance the game is getting a lot easier). I drew upon my own experience to state why I preferred option B. I don't how that means I hate that everyone else gets to see content, but again, discussion obviously can't happen here without attacks on other people.

[Moknim]

Read the effing TL;DR, it has nothing to do with what other people get to see as I said earlier, I don't care what other people do or don't do with their game time.

Also, Lailinarel, show me where I wanted the game to be balanced around me, I stated my preferences which is a bit different. My big point that I attempted to make was that for blizz to get people to stop complaining they need to either A) make the gamer stupid easy or B) make it harder like it used to be. (If across the board people are complaining about the game getting easier more than ever before, then guess what? There's a REALLY effing good chance the game is getting a lot easier). I drew upon my own experience to state why I preferred option B. I don't how that means I hate that everyone else gets to see content, but again, discussion obviously can't happen here without attacks on other people.

I'm not attacking you (Lisbet was a bit of an attack, but sometimes even the mom gets to be angry), I'm trying to have a discussion - trying to understand/see why exactly you don't like the change. There are raids that are a huge challenge - the Hard Modes. There are raids that are a moderate challenge - the 'Easy Modes.'

Your TL;DR is basically "I don't like that they have an easy and hard side to things instead of only a hard element because I feel this cheapens the experience for everyone" which to me says "More people get to see what was formerly only for the most hardcore of hardcore and since everyone gets to see it it isn't special for anyone." I don't think this is an accurate statement, but that is just my opinion.

And I really don't think Blizz can ever get people to stop complaining no matter what they do. This thread is a perfect example - 60% of people like it, 40% of people don't.

[Tylorvias]

Having an easy side and a hard side to anything is inevitable. Kara was easy to BT and Naxx was easy to ICC. What I'm trying to get across is that they are trying to cater to both casuals and hardcores and it is what has spawned instances with several varying levels of difficulty which I find lame. I want to say I beat a boss, not that I beat him under this condition that condition or the other. I want one boss to be one fight, not three or four.

[Szordrin]

Oh man. Check out the epeen wagging in this thread. I am surprised there havent been more deleted thread comments from non-mods and mods alike!

Look at this from a business perspective:

When Nax was first released in Vanilla, something pitiful like 3% of the community got to see it. If you are a company pumping a shit ton of time into content that no one sees, is that really economical at all? No. It isn't. The 5% buff is allowing it to come out and reach more of their audience(the TARGET MARKET), so that they can keep these people signed up for the game. Dunno if you know, but Blizzard aint doin' so hot.

So, before the super egotistical raiders (you know who you are) decide to say "UNF, We're still better than you!" Keep in mind that Blizzard isnt thinking of you. In fact, they could give a rats ass if the top raiding guilds from this server flopped over and died because, A, world firsts will still happen on servers that have better quality players than TN. Sorry, you aren't God's given gift. B, they're thinking economically here and it makes no sense to create an instance for the pinnacle of an expansion that millions bought for only a few hundred to see.

Kthx.

[Skaadvik]

Having an easy side and a hard side to anything is inevitable. Kara was easy to BT and Naxx was easy to ICC. What I'm trying to get across is that they are trying to cater to both casuals and hardcores and it is what has spawned instances with several varying levels of difficulty which I find lame. I want to say I beat a boss, not that I beat him under this condition that condition or the other. I want one boss to be one fight, not three or four.

catering to players such as yourself is poor business sense

sorry bro

[Chikt]

catering to players such as yourself is poor business sense

sorry bro

Basically this.

More options > Less options for any game. Enhance your gameplay with variety and a learning curve that you can define. If you want to start off at the top, then you can. If you want to work your way up, you can do that too.

[Amallah]

I want one boss to be one fight, not three or four.
By that logic, I assume you stay away from Trial of the Crusader, seeing as the beasts of Northrend are 3 (technically four if you count both worms) bosses all in one fight. And Mimiron in Ulduar, since you are technically fighting a few bosses (the seperate inventions).


If you are a company pumping a shit ton of time into content that no one sees, is that really economical at all? No. It isn't.

Hm. Finally someone else sees this. But really, most raiders that are standing firm on their stance won't care about economical reasons why Blizzard does things. They want their fights to be difficult, that you have to work towards, not fights that you can easily down a few months after release.

I, personally, don't care whether the fights get easier or not. I enjoy just DOING the fight, no matter the difficulty. While it is true that I would never get an LK kill without Blizzard nerfing the fight or buffing the players since I'm not in a raiding guild doesn't mean that I COULDN'T if I tried. With the buff they're giving players, it gives a lot of those players that weren't able to kill LK before a chance to do so now.

Also, I seem to recall something about being able to send the guy that gives the buff away? So what's with all the complaining about buffing players when you could easily get rid of the buff so you can have your difficult fight again?