DW tanking.

[Gorymoru]

Aye, I know there's a thread on DK tanking, but with the new patch and new rune, I figured it deserved it's own thread.

DW tanking. Pros, cons, and usefulness from just starting out til endgame. Discuss.

[Swerto]

Pros - Fast attack speed and it looks cool, good at causing threat with good weapons and decent for off tanking

Cons - Parry gibbing gets you and the main tank killed fast, requires a lot of hit rating and expertise to pull off.

[Grayslin]

Swerto pretty much covered it.

[Sejarki]

Woah woah woah.


Parry gibbing hasn't been the issue for awhile, and parry haste is turned off on bosses where it would be overtly detrimental (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13129903275&sid=1). Of course Blizzard hasn't revealed specifically what bosses those are, and finding out through combat logs is painful so there isn't too much information out there. Regardless, there is some math floating around (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f56/42567-dw-dk-tank.html) out there that shows even though DW tanking will lead to more parries than say, 2 handed tanking, Warriors still end up being parried more. The idea being if Warrior's are fine, DW DKs should be.

You will run into issues with people saying it's terrible for reasons of parry gibbing, but for awhile now on places like TankSpot the consensus has been it really isn't an issue.

One of the larger issues in my opinion, though, is that Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle was pretty much too good to be skipping over, but now with Rune of the Nerubian Carapace out that issue's fixed.

The other complaint I have is you end up spending 6 talent points just to make it viable, which I feel can be better spent elsewhere.

In the end though the patch is new and there isn't much information out there yet on how it's performing with the new Runes. It seems like they're intended to be used on two DPS weapons, but I have heard some people mixing their weapons up and experimenting. My main concerns right now though are threat, which is the reason I'm still running as Blood. Single target threat as Blood is head and shoulders above the other specs, and it's the one reason above all others I play as Blood. I doubt the threat output from DW tanking is going to be able to compete, but who knows, it might.

[Irontoe]

Goddamn it Emmet. You and your 40k health. I could barely put a dent in you outside Icecrown Citadel on patch day. Luckily, every other raider there was squishy as hell and unprepared for PvP.

[Draekon]

During my time with Project Mayhem (The raiding guild my DK was in on Moonguard) there was another DK tank in there that was trying the DW thing.

First of all, he had like 20k health unbuffed, and 30k or so when fully raid buffed. (This was in teir 8 + Uld 10/25 gear) His avoidance was alright, but we were about even, he had a little more then I did. I had 12k health over him, and could generate more threat then he.

In the end, all the gems he had to use to get expertise and hit capped basicly cost him too much in other areas. He also considered the 'worst tank in the guild'. I didn't see him in another spec, but he seemed to know the basics of tanking. So, I couldn't say 'skill could over come this' as I never got a good grasp on exactly how 'good' the guy was. The spec just seems like a bad idea, personally. Cool, but a bad idea. I would be all over it if I considered it viable and hadn't been bias from what I saw while in PM.

[Swerto]

I hit 23k life in heroic BLUES... UNBUFFED. Your tank sucked, brah.

[Akuje]

The fact is, no one has any real evidence on dualwield tanking. Emmet is the closest as he froths at the mouth in regards to DK tanking.

As he brought up, most bosses do not "parry gib" anymore as it was the easiest fix to allow a DK dual wield tank. I remember tanking patchwork as the soak, dual wielding for stats, with only 9 of 54 attacks hitting me, all of them mitigated significantly.

I am not 100% up to speed on the current state of DK tanking as it made me cry last time I tried it, so this isn't as meaningful as someone who tanks regularly. I do believe a dual wielding DK tank has a place for coming encounters, and can effectively play that way without hindering his group on the current t10 raid content on normal modes, we'll see what heroic looks like when it's finally released.

[Grayslin]

Well... I'm still not going to do it.

Dual wielding is for rogues!

[Broxigan]

...I was wanting to try DW Tanking on my DK. D:

[Swerto]

There's just no real benefit to it over 2h tanking.

[Barke]

Other than the fast attack speed. Which means a more frequent Rune Strike. Really both have ups and downs and it comes down to how you feel comfortable playing.

[Grayslin]

More frequent rune strikes, but they don't hit as hard, so it pretty much balances out.

[Agnarr]

...I was wanting to try DW Tanking on my DK. D:

This.

[Grayslin]

If you can get the hit and expertise you need without gimping yourself in other areas go for it, but keep in mind that the more gemming/enchanting/gearing you have to devote to that is less you have to devote to your defenses.

It's not something I'd recommend for a fresh 80 DK tank, but it might be doable once you have some solid gear.

[Agnarr]

Of course at the same token, I don't see myself ever raid tanking with my DK. Hell, at this rate I don't see myself doing it with my warrior again.

Heroics you can pretty much get away with anything if you've got a clue.

[Grayslin]

True enough

[Irontoe]

Of course at the same token, I don't see myself ever raid tanking with my DK. Hell, at this rate I don't see myself doing it with my warrior again.

Heroics you can pretty much get away with anything if you've got a clue.

Leoren tanked Halls of Reflection last night in his Relentless gear (i.e. well under defense cap), a shield from Naxx, and a terrible tank spec. It got a bit hairy, and we used two healers, but, golly, we finished it. Anyone complaining about the difficulty of that particular instance can STFU.

[Broxigan]

Leoren tanked Halls of Reflection last night in his Relentless gear (i.e. well under defense cap), a shield from Naxx, and a terrible tank spec. It got a bit hairy, and we used two healers, but, golly, we finished it. Anyone complaining about the difficulty of that particular instance can STFU.

Heroic or Regular? That's the difference.

[Grayslin]

had to have been normal. I don't think 2 dps would have been enough for that last wave in the arthas "fight" on heroic. We barely scraped by with 2 solid dps and a healer in her dps offset for our 3rd.

[Agnarr]

Leoren tanked Halls of Reflection last night in his Relentless gear (i.e. well under defense cap), a shield from Naxx, and a terrible tank spec. It got a bit hairy, and we used two healers, but, golly, we finished it. Anyone complaining about the difficulty of that particular instance can STFU.

I might be on tonight. Try it again with a real tank? ;)
(is that the first one of the new ones?)

[Anthek]

I might be on tonight. Try it again with a real tank? ;)
(is that the first one of the new ones?)

It's the last one.

[Lailinarel]

Ctually, if rune strike's threat works anything like heroic strike's DW tanking could put out higher tps than with a two hander. Warrior threat is higher with a fast one hander than a slow one, despite the fact that your instant attacks technically hit harder with a slower weapon. That said, my instant attacks are normalized to one hander speeds (2.2 I think) while dk instant attacks with a two hander are likely significantly higher threat due to the 3.4 (I think) normalization, not to mention that Heroic strike is attack + static bonus while Rune Strike is a multiplier, or was last time I dk tanked.

[Grayslin]

I actually joked to hal that I was going to try it in heroic forge yesterday. But after I said it, I started thinking about it in regard to my TPS and I might give it a shot. I need to redo my 2nd spec anyway, might make it a DW build for a bit. I've got some 232 1-handers that dropped in the new heroics. They're not perfect, but would probably do for testing purposes.

[Lailinarel]

Seeing as how you will typically get more raw stat out DW than a two hander, and high dps if specced properly, I can see how it could work out better overall, though I'm hardly the DK expert.

[Grayslin]

Only problem is they're high speed 1-handers and I don't know how well that will do for my frost strikes and obliterates.

[Lailinarel]

Yeah, can see that being an issue, I bet tankspot has some better info on it than me, but slow seems the way to go.

[Gorymoru]

Well, on my DK I got the two, fast tanking weapons from the new heroics. Here (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&n=M%C3%A9nalai) is my DK in tanking gear. Ignore the shield block boots. I forgot to log out in my actual ones.

[Swerto]

I know for a fact as DPS you want the slowest 1h you can get (higher special damage), tanking may be different. You're not a paladin or a warrior though, auto attacks really don't mean anything to you.

[Lailinarel]

Actually, depending on your spec and what you mean by auto attacks, you're pretty far off there, I believe in a frost build it's fairly common to drop points into scent of blood which (keep in mind my info isn't 100% up to date) generates RP on white hits after you've been hit, and since rune strike is on next swing like heroic, depending on precisely how the attack converts to threat and the multiplier it uses, it is kinda extremely dependent on what your white swings are going for. Unfortunately highest damage doesn't always equal highest threat, though it certainly doesn't hurt.

[Swerto]

If you're DW tanking, you're deep frost.

Deep unholy/blood specs are for 2h only when it comes to tanking or DPS these days. RP generation isn't a problem for DKs of any spec, and deep unholy means you're generating it like crazy with howling blast + obliterate spam, which you quickly dump into frost strikes and rune strikes, and as DW you want very slow weapons so those hit as hard as possible.

More damage = more threat.

So no, I'm spot on.

[Lailinarel]

More damage = more threat.


I'm only going to argue against this one point, again, I'm not the pro on DK tanking, but I am a pretty damn good warrior tank, and I do know that pre devastate damage buff, once you had a full stack of sunders (maxing out the damage on devastate because the attack gains a static damage boost for each sunder on the target) It actually generated less threat, it's threat was actually so bad that the skill was barely worth using as a tank because even on single target pulls, thunderclap despite hitting for a fair bit less than devestate, would generate more threat because of the debuff it was applying while Devestate refreshed the sunder stack but did not actually apply additional stacks so it didn't generate bonus threat.

So no, more damage was not more threat in said case.

[Swerto]

Okay, let me rephrase that so you understand it better.

In the context of the same ability, more damage causes more threat.

That means a rune strike that hits 1k will do less threat than a rune strike that hits 2k, it's pretty simple.

A frost strike and rune strike that hit for the same will not cause equal threat, the rune strike will cause more threat because it's a high threat talent and frost strike is a moderate threat talent (though you should still use frost strike since it's an instant hit talent, and when combined with rune strike 'on next hit' spam you cause more threat than just one or the other)

[Lailinarel]

In the context of the same ability, more damage causes more threat.

That means a rune strike that hits 1k will do less threat than a rune strike that hits 2k, it's pretty simple.


The one thing that you forget to say in there is that more damage overall means more threat overall the hardest hitting (biggest number per swing) method is not always the highest total damage, nor the highest overall threat. When that is brought into play, I concede your point. Again, I'll reference heroic strike damage/threat for this. And again, I'll state that obviously DK's are not warriors as I have many times before in this thread, however it is a thought worth taking into consideration especially when one is making the choice between a faster higher dps weapon and a slower lower dps weapon. Due to normalization it's completely possible that they'll lose overall threat despite seeing larger numbers flashing on screen.

[Grayslin]

Based on this weekend's experiment, fast weapons are not ideal for DW tanking. I could not hold aggro on heroic AK trash and by the time we got to the first boss, I switched back to my standard 2-h tanking spec so it wouldn't be a wipefest.

I might try it again some day with some slower weapons if I pick up any.

[Broxigan]

Mildly disappointing. Looks like the two Peacekeeper Turkey Cutters in my bank are useless...

[Lailinarel]

Based on this weekend's experiment, fast weapons are not ideal for DW tanking. I could not hold aggro on heroic AK trash and by the time we got to the first boss, I switched back to my standard 2-h tanking spec so it wouldn't be a wipefest.

I might try it again some day with some slower weapons if I pick up any.

I doubt you'll find any dps one handers with strength, so I imagine that rogue/shammy etc one handers is the way to go, high agility will help make up for lack of str for parry, and as we both well know, t9 has gratuitous amounts of defense on it, perhaps try to find something with sockets for added tank stats.

[Broxigan]

I suppose I will toy around with my Tyrannical Beheader and the tanking gear I have right now and see what works.

Also, I just found out today that enchants replace the rune on your weapon. -.-

[Maithanet]

I found that two Nighttimes made sure I kept excellent threat.

[Gorymoru]

Well with my two 1handers, I do fine. At first I thought my threat gen was shit when I was in H UP...but I realized that somehow I had been taken out of frost presence, so it wasn't my fault.

My personal feeling is Frost is spell damage based, so stat-stacking like you can with 1-handers may balance things out a bit to cover the damage.

On the case of fast vs. slow, so far I've done fine, but I also treat all mobs like I'm about to lose threat, regardless of how much I have. (note that I do NOT taunt all the time. Saw one tank doing that constantly and figured that was a waste of GCD) All I mean by that is that I run through my abilities with a fervor, and if I'm in a stupid group that doesn't focus my target, I'll switch to rune strike different targets.

I have two slow, DPS weapons that I intend to try out, but honestly I like my 558 defense rating =P.

[Grayslin]

Yeah, that DK was silly...

All taunting does is grab aggro and move you to the top position on the threat meter, then it's up to you to hold that threat. If you have aggro and you're taunting, "ur doing it wrong."

[Lailinarel]

Though if I recall, taunt was taken off the GCD at some point. Likely when all taunts were made ranged, though I do not know if this counts death grip.

I don't really taunt often enough to notice.

[Grayslin]

You know, I've never noticed if DG was on the GCD or not, which probably means it isn't, or that would have caused a problem at some point. Not that it's really a taunt anyway, at least in the sense that it doesn't affect your position on the threat table, only forces the mob to attack you for 4 seconds. I tend to use it more for pulling casters into the melee pack than anything else.

[Gorymoru]

I just got the 1h DPS version of quel'delar, and along with nightime I did some quick stat math. I don't lose enough stats overall to make any excuses for my damage boost. Thus, my verdict has been changed.

slow 1handers are yer friend. But if you can't get two slow 1h'ers...fast 1handers will work for heroics.

[Swerto]

I simply suggest not DW tanking for raids, you're gimping yourself too much.

[Akuje]

I simply suggest not DW tanking for raids, you're gimping yourself too much.

What is your experience in raid dual wield tanking?

You are aware that almost all bosses don't parry gib? They did that because they wanted DK's to be able to dual wield tank. Frosts current insane damage will result in threat.

[Swerto]

The fact most 1h don't have the best stats for DK tanks.

The fact that to DW tank you need to stack a shit ton more hit, something that gimps other stats.

It's better to just 2h tank, and regardless Frost isn't the best raid tank spec.

[Grayslin]

I've been raid tanking as frost for going on 6-7 months now and I've had no problems.

How long have you been raid tanking as frost?

[drippygoo]

I simply suggest not DW tanking for raids, you're gimping yourself too much.

One of the main tanks in my guild is Frost DW.

I dont recall if the weapons are fast or slow, or some combo of both, but
he is the bomb.

I dont see how you can be gimping yourself. Blizz made alot of changes a few patchs back via talents to correct the gimpness.
You wear similiar gear and with 2 weapons you can tweak a few stats more.

Finally got my dk to 80 and been running heroics like made, dw frost tank and I love it.
I have also asked healers during/after runs about how I am to heal.

Common trend is I am no diff really than a pally.

I guess I am doing it right :)

[Lisbet]

My general thought for DW Dk's is to shoot for Enh shaman weapons.

Enh shaman shoot for the slowest speed maces they can get their hands on - 2.80 is ideal, though 2.6 seems to be the norm. There's a decent set that drops out of ToC heroic 5 man (I have two of them for my shaman who I never use to melee anymore *cries* I miss enhancement!) with gem sockets. I believe there's one that drops in one of the new heroics (or norm versions) as well.

Not.. that I have a dk or know how to equip them --- but I do have a shaman (I lurve my shamans).. and I'd assume since slower swing timer = higher top end damage, and more damage = more threat, and dw is about threat when tanking .. enchancement weapons are the way to go.

I would just make sure you're covered in the tanking stats department in other places ;)

[drippygoo]

My general thought for DW Dk's is to shoot for Enh shaman weapons.

Enh shaman shoot for the slowest speed maces they can get their hands on - 2.80 is ideal, though 2.6 seems to be the norm. There's a decent set that drops out of ToC heroic 5 man (I have two of them for my shaman who I never use to melee anymore *cries* I miss enhancement!) with gem sockets. I believe there's one that drops in one of the new heroics (or norm versions) as well.

Not.. that I have a dk or know how to equip them --- but I do have a shaman (I lurve my shamans).. and I'd assume since slower swing timer = higher top end damage, and more damage = more threat, and dw is about threat when tanking .. enchancement weapons are the way to go.

I would just make sure you're covered in the tanking stats department in other places ;)

The mace is from reg. Forge of Souls, its 1.6

There is an axe/mace/sword from the new heriocs that I have yet to get my hands on...apparently blizz thinks my gear isnt good enough to run those on heroic yet.

Oh well, I should prolly take my warlock there just to see wth is going on for when I try and tank it.

@Lisbet - I know those maces thats what our tank uses, I wanna get them also :) Not sure if I will tank with them or not, but I wants.

[Sejarki]

Trying out DW Tanking now and went through ICC 25 as it (well, we didn't get Saurfang down, but that's somewhat unrelated). So far, honestly, it feels the same. It's better single target threat than 2H Frost, it may be on par with Blood's threat but I can't think of an easy way to actually find hard numbers, can anyone recommend some decent threat parsers?

I prefer the Unbreakable Armor cooldown for Saurfang actually to Vampiric Blood, since it actually reduces incoming damage. The other argument I've seen (for ICC) is that Frost Strike makes a good supplement for Rune Strike if for some reason you're just going dry on RS procs.

Right now I'm using 2 slow weapons (Black Icicle x2), I haven't had the chance to try out using a fast offhand weapon aside from on dummies. It did seem like I was getting Rime/Killing Machine procs a little more frequently with the fast off-hand, but I guess that's to be expected. Not sure how it all works out in actual use though.

Taking it into ICC10 tonight, maybe I can see how the fast offhand works there.

Main issue is there's really no flexibility in the talent choices. Boo. And so I don't have Acclimation and that makes me sad. Also I miss having Morbidity, my AoE threat doesn't feel as stable without it, but it's probably all in my head after a bad night with Lady Deathwhisper's adds and having to compare my AoE threat to that of a Paladin's.