Any Raiding Groups Left? [Archive] - The Twisting Nether Gazette

Malethia

11-13-2009, 03:50 PM

So I'm sitting here with a currently unused Ret/Prot paladin and a Holy/Disc priest. I've admittedly been neglecting them since Treasure Seekers dissolved in favor of leveling my Alliance character, so they're not as geared in T9 as they could be. However, I'm starting to get the feeling I'll regret not seeing Icecrown if I just give up on raiding completely.

The reason I'm posting this is to see if anyone knows of any surviving raid groups/guilds that take non-guild members. I have no intention of leaving Sanctuary just to raid, but I don't want to go without seeing the storyline wrap up yet again.

Jeedup

11-13-2009, 06:41 PM

Blades occasionally takes non-blades to raids, but they can tell you more.

As of actual Raiding Groups that have more sucess than pugs? I've not heard of any. I think their time has passed on TN.

Feorn

11-14-2009, 10:42 AM

We do on occasion. However, we only run 10 mans and we're pretty full up with our regulars. Talk to Aerdir though, he might have other ideas or something.

Cabriel

11-14-2009, 11:10 AM

Eventually Lysi, Sabienne, Amoola, Grainia, and I will do something. We'll be called TeamFab. There's probably gonna be an application fee to, yanno, weed out the crazies.

o.O

(YES THE FEE IS A JOKE HAHA)

Gorvena

11-14-2009, 03:40 PM

After the demise of TS Gasa and I joined XIlI and may be moving on to another guild soon due to the enormous amount of pugging we have to do to pull of a "guild" raid...

And now that everyone seems to know about WoW-Heroes.com pugs have a better chance of success.

Agnarr

11-14-2009, 11:09 PM

And now that everyone seems to know about WoW-Heroes.com pugs have a better chance of success.
It's what the pros use!

Rand_Shea

11-15-2009, 03:02 AM

Okhu

11-15-2009, 01:18 PM

Raiding groups ultimately have a tendency of getting full of themselves and forgetting the very reasons why they were formed up in the first place.

Which, if you're going to deal with that crap, you may as well join a raiding guild, because then at least you know where you stand when it comes time for roll call.

That isn't to say that Raiding guilds don't get full of themselves either, but it seems to happen much more frequently with raiding coalitions.

Rand_Shea

11-15-2009, 01:53 PM

That isn't to say that Raiding guilds don't get full of themselves either, but it seems to happen much more frequently with raiding coalitions.

No, raiding guilds started the trend of getting full of themselves. That's why people started making raiding coalitions, because people wanted to be able to raid and not deal with the craptastic occurrences of loot, raidspot, or "who doesn't fucking know the fight?!" drama.

That's why they succeeded for a time and were getting to where they were on par if not giving the super-powerful raiding guilds a run for their money and even taking away their members.

But, then raiding coalitions started getting pompous and pulling the same crap the raiding guilds did, but the one thing they lacked from a raiding guild was consistent structure and obligation for their 'members' to commit. So, people said "fuck it" to coalitions and opted to go back to guilds to get some assurance... or they just started PuGing, because there's less drama with people you've only met and most likely won't deal with more than a couple times a month, at most.

I'm thinking about whether or not to try starting one again when I come back, just to give people the option of there being one if they're not in a guild and PuGing doesn't work out well enough.

Alphaeus

11-16-2009, 12:07 AM

I keep wanting to do a steady late evening/night pug thing, but with such a late hour, the potential for fail is high due to lack of people.

Broxigan

11-16-2009, 09:18 AM

I wonder how long raiding alliances will remain around after the guild leveling/achievements are put in place.

Lisbet

11-16-2009, 09:18 AM

Cyrass

11-16-2009, 10:41 AM

Just remember folks, come Cata, you're going to WANT to raid with your guild for the special rewards granted to guilds who do things together.

Don't shy away from guild raiding and stuff - Find a good guild, or start building one from the people who you know are knowladgable and fun.

Personally I would love to see someone hordeside put something together and really just put Aftermath's ninja looting antics in their place ;p

Problem is that some people don't want to leave RP guilds to raid, and some times raiding with said guild wouldn't be viable. To pick out a random Horde-side guild:

Infection. Given that this guild only allows undead, that means that they won't be able to bring any Shaman, Paladin or Druids to guild runs. Not exactly conductive to this kind of thing, is it?

Keraph

11-16-2009, 11:42 AM

Infection. Given that this guild only allows undead, that means that they won't be able to bring any Shaman, Paladin or Druids to guild runs. Not exactly conductive to this kind of thing, is it?

This does pose a bit of a problem for those members of Infection (Most notably Nadea and Vales) who -do- raid very regularly with outside sources, as well as myself on Cerryan in Order of Eversong (Also a single-race guild, facing similar restrictions). Short of destroying the basis on which these guilds were formed, guild-only raiding isn't looking like a solid possibility. This isn't a huge problem for Infection, since our focus as a guild is PvP, but for those raiding with other guilds it could become an issue. This also seems to weaken the ability to pug raids you may not otherwise be doing (25 mans for guilds that only do 10 man content as a guild, for instance)

For the more significantly powerful guild talent abilities, perhaps there'll be some sort of a system where as long as the leader of a given guild is leading the raid, or a large percentage of players in a raid are from a given guild, that guild's benefits are provided to all members of the raid, but while an ability that summons or resurrects all guild members (both featured in the initial preview of the system) is cool, it's not like it's hard to get a few people summoned the old fashioned way, or for those who were rezzed to rezz those who aren't of the guild (Since it's a long cast, likely out of combat only raise). Aside from that, do we know of any guild raiding benefits more significant than say lowering repair costs a bit? I'd be happy to pay the normal cost of raid repairs in return for raiding with a competent group without needing to leave my RP guild.

Szordrin

11-16-2009, 12:25 PM

If you're willing to leave, there is Malleus Maleficarum who in my opinion have a great array of personalities in their guild. There's Thralls Poker Buddies, good friends of the Raven Cross.

Uh... Aftermath, Borrowed Time, and then there are a large handful of other, smaller groups.

There -was- quite a few raiding coalitions. I -had- Ebon Vanguard just for ten mans but the psuedo survey I took about those who would be interested ended up changing their minds after the fact. Once I took a week or two off of WoW cause I was moving, basically was the ending point of EV. I'm not opposed to starting it again but it would take alot of convincing that people wouldn't be flakes and change their minds at the very last second and that I wouldn't have to baby sit a handful of members about attendance and the like.

There was Team Facepull but that hasn't been around since BC.

And we all know what happened to TNR and TS so no reason to talk about that.

Akuje

11-16-2009, 12:27 PM

that means that they won't be able to bring any Shaman, Paladin or Druids to guild runs. Not exactly conductive to this kind of thing, is it?

You don't need this things to raid successfully. If you want to be at the front of progression you will, but honestly, how many people here are truly at that level? They want to tackle the content and experience it for the story and for thrill, but being the first to do it in it's hardest way, doesn't mean a thing.

Keraph

11-16-2009, 12:28 PM

Thrall's Poker Buddies is cool stuff, run 25s with them sometimes along with Nadea.

You don't need this things to raid successfully. If you want to be at the front of progression you will, but honestly, how many people here are truly at that level? They want to tackle the content and experience it for the story and for thrill, but being the first to do it in it's hardest way, doesn't mean a thing.

I won't even try to argue the feasibility of running successful raids with only the Forsaken classes. Sure it's possible, but it doesn't even sound SORT of fun.

Szordrin

11-16-2009, 12:30 PM

Ran with them before you because of AntiClockwise. OOOOOOHHHH. BOOYAH, GRASSHOPPAH.

Keraph

11-16-2009, 12:30 PM

Ran with them before you because of AntiClockwise. OOOOOOHHHH. BOOYAH, GRASSHOPPAH.

WAIT WHAT ABOUT AC? I rolled with that crew tooooooo~

Akuje

11-16-2009, 12:46 PM

I won't even try to argue the feasibility of running successful raids with only the Forsaken classes. Sure it's possible, but it doesn't even sound SORT of fun.

Why?

2 warriors to tank, Vigilance swapping for less damage.
2 Priests to heal, one Holy one Disc.
2 Rogues to Dps and interrupt as needed.
2 Mages to swap that spell they have and pewpew
2 Warlocks to melt faces.

Win? Tell me one fight that comp won't work on? Hell, you can swap one tank and one warrior with a DK if you really want, but their current Tanking is a bit behind.

Keraph

11-16-2009, 12:49 PM

I just don't see Infection really rallying for any sort of raiding. In general I KNOW you can pull an all undead 10 man group with success, Disc/holy working together is quite satisfactory. I just don't see Infection doing it XD Also raiding can bring all sorts of drama that we're happily free of, and I don't even want to begin to get into it x.x

Akuje

11-16-2009, 12:51 PM

Jeedup

11-16-2009, 03:09 PM

If you're willing to leave, there is Malleus Maleficarum who in my opinion have a great array of personalities in their guild.

There was Team Facepull but that hasn't been around since BC.

And we all know what happened to TNR and TS so no reason to talk about that.

Malleus? /gag

Sorry, not going near them with a ten foot poll. Oh and, Facepull IS Malleus, Szo.

TNR became Borrowed Time, with people from HSM.

Abric

11-16-2009, 03:50 PM

I was on deployment for half of this year. What happened to the raid coalitions out there?

... did Keraph break them by playing a female Blood Elf?

Cessily

11-16-2009, 04:06 PM

Race restrictions to a guild are an awesome thing to have, and I think it's fun enough to see a raid being done with forsaken-only classes. That's the whole challenge! And if it's IC, even better.

As for good raiding guilds... I know none. I don't like TPB's style too much, nor I enjoy any other I tried. Maybe it's pve's fault, to begin with u_u

Szordrin

11-16-2009, 04:15 PM

Malleus? /gag

Sorry, not going near them with a ten foot poll. Oh and, Facepull IS Malleus, Szo.

TNR became Borrowed Time, with people from HSM.

Yeah. I know.

Notice how I said, Facepull and TNR dont exist? Cause they dont. All of those who made facepull are not all in Malleus. All of those who made HSM and TNR are not all in Borrowed Time. They're separate entities.

Dont need to get in the niddy gritty.

Jeedup

11-16-2009, 04:19 PM

Dont need to get in the niddy gritty.

But the more 'important' part of TFP is part of Malleus. The main reason I'm saying the bloody hell away from them.

Szordrin

11-16-2009, 04:30 PM

I dunno.. I mean, I considered you, Soc, Stitch, Visant, Nadea, Demotts, etc the important parts.

If you mean by former leadership, I suppose you could count Steve and Nawxder.

Kaldore

11-16-2009, 05:35 PM

Rand_Shea

11-16-2009, 06:41 PM

I still want to start a raiding group because I'm one of the rare people that doesn't mind doing 'old' content and gear runs, and having something people can use to get geared and into actual raiding guilds would be readily welcomed even if raiding guilds are the way to go.

It would take time, though... and consistency. Something I'm not exactly sure I can guarantee at this point in time, or even in the near future. Probably the most I could do is help out with whatever one someone else starts.

Keraph

11-16-2009, 07:01 PM

Race restrictions to a guild are an awesome thing to have, and I think it's fun enough to see a raid being done with forsaken-only classes. That's the whole challenge! And if it's IC, even better.

I don't know why, but as both a skilled raider and a big RPer, I've never ever ever ever EVER liked the concept of in-character raiding. There's something about it that just seems too...unwieldy. I've RPed lightly or during downtime IN raids, but I would never be able to deal with everything being in character X.x

Cessily

11-16-2009, 11:21 PM

I don't know why, but as both a skilled raider and a big RPer, I've never ever ever ever EVER liked the concept of in-character raiding. There's something about it that just seems too...unwieldy. I've RPed lightly or during downtime IN raids, but I would never be able to deal with everything being in character X.x

It's fun if your group has the right mindset. I mean, every RP in this game is pretty vulnerable to 'lololol MOHAWKS' comic side of the scenario, or the fact this game was obviously not meant for RP.

I think it's neat ^^

Fhenrir

11-17-2009, 02:30 AM

I don't know why, but as both a skilled terrible raider and a big fat RPer, I've never ever ever ever EVER liked the concept of in-character raiding.

Fixed.

Gorvena

11-17-2009, 09:10 AM

having something people can use to get geared and into actual raiding guilds would be readily welcomed even if raiding guilds are the way to go.
Problem with that is that your "membership" would be so liquid that it will eventually evaporate. Just like TS did.

Keraph

11-17-2009, 09:22 AM

Fixed.

THANK YOU FHEN YOU'RE A GOOD FRIEND

Cyrass

11-17-2009, 10:13 AM

Problem with that is that your "membership" would be so liquid that it will eventually evaporate. Just like TS did.

TS had more problems than this.

Gorvena

11-17-2009, 10:18 AM

TS had more problems than this.
Oh, I know. That was only one of the problems, but it was a problem that caused a lot of drama.

Akuje

11-17-2009, 11:21 AM

TS's problems were people would get better, and other's wouldn't get better. That's what happens. People wanted to play at 4 different levels and it wasn't working.

Overall TS was a great group, that was killed by the content available to everyone idea. When you don't need 25 people to see the content, there went 2 tiers of TS's raiders.

For me, I lost the fun of raiding as we struggled with attendance issues for 10 mans. I'd try and fill a role that I wanted to do, and then be asked to change to fit the need. So I jumped ship to a place that wanted me for my big fat feathery ass.

Barke

11-17-2009, 11:31 AM

I'd want you for your feathers but melee don't get benefits for it! So I like bear better. =P

Szordrin

11-17-2009, 12:30 PM

@ everyone that has never raided anything past 10 man Uld or Voa:

You know why I never speak authoritatively about the subjects of Quantum Physics, running a marathon, or changing a tampon?

Because I'm fucking clueless about these things and don't want to sound like an ass.

Curious as to who you're referring to here.

I mean, running ToC and ToGC isn't hard. I expect more than 3/4ths of the people here have seen at least up to the final boss in that 45minute-2hour instance (depending on the assgrabbing).

Rand_Shea

11-17-2009, 01:59 PM

Oh, I know. That was only one of the problems, but it was a problem that caused a lot of drama.

Which is part of why I don't think I personally have the time now or even in the near future to devote to something like a real raiding group. Enforcing rules and attendance policies would be next to impossible with my schedule and where I am now.

It's essentially running a guild without the actual guild.

Kaldore

11-17-2009, 03:57 PM

Curious as to who you're referring to here.

I mean, running ToC and ToGC isn't hard. I expect more than 3/4ths of the people here have seen at least up to the final boss in that 45minute-2hour instance (depending on the assgrabbing).

Damn, it's been a few months since I last played - Totally slipped my mind about those raids!

My post was directed at anyone that consistently posts shit as if they know shit ABOUT shit.

And one more "shit" for good measure.

Boudika

11-17-2009, 04:21 PM

lets play a little game....lets mix Kaldores post up a bit....

My post was directed at anyone that consistently posts shit as if they know shit ABOUT shit.

Damn, it's been a few months since I last played - Totally slipped my mind about those raids!

shit....

Gorvena

11-17-2009, 06:31 PM

lulz truefax...

Lisbet

11-18-2009, 09:59 AM

This whole thread makes me angry.

Mal, do yourself a favor and build yourself a 10 man group - or get some gear on your warrior alliance side and run with EB or hell, us, for 10 mans on our alt runs.

Or join a guild that raids - there's quite a few of them.

Just make sure you understand how your particular class actually WORKS and not just how you push your buttons to make big numbers be shiny. Research your class and spec, ask questions of people who know what they're doing - and FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, if you're a healer - learn how to mouseovermacro and clique!

Doo eet

Kaldore

11-18-2009, 10:29 AM

lets play a little game....lets mix Kaldores post up a bit....

shit....

Sick burn sir!

Really though, you could swap the names of the instances to whatever the casual content is currently. Doesn't take away from the fact that people who have never ran anything more complicated than microwaving a hotpocket or an RP thread spouting off about what it takes to run a successful raiding guild is fucking ridiculous.

Akuje

11-18-2009, 11:20 AM

Sick burn sir!

Really though, you could swap the names of the instances to whatever the casual content is currently. Doesn't take away from the fact that people who have never ran anything more complicated than microwaving a hotpocket or an RP thread spouting off about what it takes to run a successful raiding guild is fucking ridiculous.

Come on, how hard is it to keep 36 people happy? I mean, making sure they understand they sometimes have to sit out so other people can get in for gear/performance/other reason. Also recruiting when special needs come up by finding a off server tank? Making sure to balance guild funds with guild repair funds. All that does it's self!

Lysimachus

11-18-2009, 11:38 AM

It is hard to find a group... being in a PvP guild, I just have to join the PuG raid generator and cross my fingers :(

I like to do small, occasional raids, and I know I have fair enough gear to do it, but... there's just no way to do it except for pugging.

I wonder if PvE might pique my interest more than PvP at this time? I feel like I've hit a wall in PvP progression, anyways. I'll have to think about that.

Maybe it's just this game.

Orin

11-18-2009, 12:03 PM

Come on, how hard is it to keep 36 people happy?

Oh god, don't get me started.

Cyrass

11-18-2009, 12:20 PM

I wonder if PvE might pique my interest more than PvP at this time? I feel like I've hit a wall in PvP progression, anyways. I'll have to think about that.

I feel kinda the same way.

Akuje

11-18-2009, 12:33 PM

Oh god, don't get me started.

I forgot to turn on my sarcasm meter.

Lysimachus

11-18-2009, 12:34 PM

Cy, we can two-man Ulduar =] You DPS, I'll bandage, and your wolves can tank.

Agnarr

11-18-2009, 01:13 PM

Cy, we can two-man Ulduar =] You DPS, I'll bandage, and your wolves can tank.
I've got a shield!

Lysimachus

11-18-2009, 01:26 PM

You know, there ARE enough people in the Cross that PvE for ten man groups, I'd bet...

Agnarr

11-18-2009, 01:40 PM

Yeah. The problem, like with many raid organizations, is scheduling.

Sejarki

11-18-2009, 01:48 PM

It is hard to find a group... being in a PvP guild, I just have to join the PuG raid generator and cross my fingers :(

I like to do small, occasional raids, and I know I have fair enough gear to do it, but... there's just no way to do it except for pugging.

Here's a fairly simple solution: After a pug, if it for some absurd reason does well, simply make a calendar event for roughly the same time next week and invite them all back. Adjust as necessary, adding or removing players from that invite list.

Really though don't be afraid to take the initiative and put together the group yourself.

Skaadvik

11-18-2009, 02:12 PM

Cy, we can two-man Ulduar =] You DPS, I'll bandage, and your wolves can tank.

Flame Leviathan is two-mannable.

Lysimachus

11-18-2009, 02:43 PM

Here's a fairly simple solution: After a pug, if it for some absurd reason does well, simply make a calendar event for roughly the same time next week and invite them all back. Adjust as necessary, adding or removing players from that invite list.

Really though don't be afraid to take the initiative and put together the group yourself.

The problem is that, not being in a raiding guild, I'm really not capable of leading a raid. I may know DPS and healing, but I know nothing about tanking, for example, and what separates a good tank from a bad one (simply by looking at gear or talents).

Rand_Shea

11-18-2009, 05:35 PM

You know, there ARE enough people in the Cross that PvE for ten man groups, I'd bet...

They used to be all for it. Early day Raven Cross excursions into Karazhan were fun and lolworthy, as were Naxx10 runs in Wrath.

Dicking around in the game the past couple of days has been fun. I may reconsider my complete hiatus and start subscribing again to play casually during downtimes in my schedule. Depends on how much I can get done by this weekend for class projects.

If it's feasible, though, I'll be one of your personal ranged DPS/heal bitches. ;P If I can get my paladin geared, maybe even a tank, but I have yet to practice that any.

Orin

11-19-2009, 08:48 AM

The problem is that, not being in a raiding guild, I'm really not capable of leading a raid. I may know DPS and healing, but I know nothing about tanking, for example, and what separates a good tank from a bad one (simply by looking at gear or talents).

You don't have to know everything. If you know one tank who is decent, communicate with them that you'd like to organize a regular group and that you want him as the lead tank. Have him track down a second and third tank. You can track down folks to fill the rest. Make it easier on yourself by being "dps lead" and find a solid healer to organize that portion too if needed.

Most of what it takes to get raids off the ground, or run a guild/group, is motivation from a few individuals followed up with time spent organizing and scheduling everything to get it going.

Cyrass

11-19-2009, 08:59 AM

Cy, we can two-man Ulduar =] You DPS, I'll bandage, and your wolves can tank.

TO ALGALON!

I do think that there are enough of us. But I'm not sure there are enough with the same schedule as Agnarr said.

Lailinarel

11-19-2009, 08:59 AM

Eh, I learned to raidlead in ZG, running pugs for encounters I barely knew when I started. Keep in mind that you don't need to know every class inside and out in order to lead, even though it helps. And really if you've got 5 compent folks that you know then you'll be fine pugging those other spots. Best way to learn though is to just do it. Keep your temper in check if you aren't 100% confident in what you're saying, cause nothing makes you look dumber than being chewed out by a pug who has a clue.

P.S. Orin types faster than my cell phone.

Gorvena

11-19-2009, 09:53 AM

The problem is that, not being in a raiding guild, I'm really not capable of leading a raid. I may know DPS and healing, but I know nothing about tanking, for example, and what separates a good tank from a bad one (simply by looking at gear or talents).
Why is it that people expect the raid leader to have complete lexiconic knowlege of not only the raid encounters, but of every class and every spec? I'd say it's laziness.

I don't know shit about warlock mechanics, but I can read a buff bar and I watch target-of-target when someone pulls aggro.

And I would prefer to not bother leading a raid full of people who can't be bothered to at least read up on an encounter.

Fhenrir

11-19-2009, 10:29 AM

Why is it that people expect the raid leader to have complete lexiconic knowlege of not only the raid encounters, but of every class and every spec? I'd say it's laziness.

...

And I would prefer to not bother leading a raid full of people who can't be bothered to at least read up on an encounter.

Speaking from experience, the more knowledge you have in both departments, the more effective you will be.

Having a better knowledge of each class and spec gives you a better understanding of their strengths and weaknesses. The easiest (and most often used) work around to this is to have a basic understanding of everything, and have officers that can fill in the gaps on classes you have a less intimate understanding of. At the end of the day, if the leader does not have the knowledge he/she needs either from encyclopedic knowledge or by research, they will make less effective decisions.

This knowledge of classes tends to come into synergy with knowledge of raid encounters, which a good raid leader needs plenty of. If you lack the knowledge of any aspect of a boss fight, you will be hard pressed to adapt to a fight or make snap decisions when things go wrong. When a tank flops and stuff runs loose, a good guild leader can command attention and get people doing things to recover from what would otherwise be a wipe. A good guild leader will also generally have some good ideas for strategy implementation and experimentation, rather than just copy/pasting wowwiki and having a wank.

Note: Usage of "you" in the above is all generalized and applies to nobody in specific.

Gorvena

11-19-2009, 10:46 AM

Speaking from experience, the more knowledge you have in both departments, the more effective you will be.

Having a better knowledge of each class and spec gives you a better understanding of their strengths and weaknesses. The easiest (and most often used) work around to this is to have a basic understanding of everything, and have officers that can fill in the gaps on classes you have a less intimate understanding of. At the end of the day, if the leader does not have the knowledge he/she needs either from encyclopedic knowledge or by research, they will make less effective decisions.

This knowledge of classes tends to come into synergy with knowledge of raid encounters, which a good raid leader needs plenty of. If you lack the knowledge of any aspect of a boss fight, you will be hard pressed to adapt to a fight or make snap decisions when things go wrong. When a tank flops and stuff runs loose, a good guild leader can command attention and get people doing things to recover from what would otherwise be a wipe. A good guild leader will also generally have some good ideas for strategy implementation and experimentation, rather than just copy/pasting wowwiki and having a wank.
I didn't say one could lead a raid without knowlege (I've been in a raid with a know-it-all leader who was wrong about a particular fight that failed horribly), but some responsibility needs to be shifted off of the leader and onto the individual participants or you will end up with very few successful raid guilds/groups. I've seen a very competent 25-man raid torpedoed by one moron in a key position (ask Aite; he was there).

Note: Usage of "you" in the above is all generalized and applies to nobody in specific.
Oh ya, fersure. ;)

Lysimachus

11-19-2009, 12:59 PM

People get feisty about PvE, eh? I guess it's the same with PvP and RP, too.

In any case, I think raiding within a guild makes the most sense. Especially, like others noted, with the coming of Cataclysm's changes. Will have to discuss this with some other Ravens, methinks.

Though it's always important to bring outside friends along! *snags Dyiana*

opalexian

11-19-2009, 01:12 PM

Why is it that people expect the raid leader to have complete lexiconic knowlege of not only the raid encounters, but of every class and every spec? I'd say it's laziness.

I don't know shit about warlock mechanics, but I can read a buff bar and I watch target-of-target when someone pulls aggro.

And I would prefer to not bother leading a raid full of people who can't be bothered to at least read up on an encounter.

Because then you understand their roles and what they can or cannot do so can strategize the fight better based on your comp (this is even more important now when you don't have X, Y, and Z class as Q role only) Believe me, it helps a lot.

Also WHERE THE FUCK IS MOKNIM?!?? YOU COULD NEVER HAVE TO LEAD A PUG AGAIN.

And I hate you Lys for forgetting about me...you know, the...lesser...enhancenment...shaman. *assassinates Cyrass*

Moknim

11-19-2009, 01:46 PM

From experience - I have been leading ToC10, VoA10/25, Ony10/25 since I got back in game. Its really not that bad, leading doesn't mean knowing everything, just having a general idea of the fight mechanics and being able to delegate. Its totally acceptable to say "Tanks decide who is MT'ing and healers figure out assignments." Most people know enough about their class (especially if they have a decent gearscore, and yes wow-heroes is useful for PuGs) to be competent enough for ToC10/25. Its not like this content is hard.

And if you lead a raid you find out new things all the time, you don't have to know it all from the start - a couple of weeks ago I found out that BoP removed the debuffs from the first Northrend Beast. I am now getting paladins to BoP the tanks in the transition to the worms. You learn stuff all the time. With even a basic knowledge of class synergy you can put together a competent raid pretty easily. You just have to be willing to tell someone they are undergeared or the wrong class and be okay with the hissy fit they will throw.

That being said, being in a guild with people you know are competent is much better. It doesn't take very long, though, to learn who the competent regular-PuG runners are and who you can put on ignore for lacking the skill/human decency to be in your raid. I have probably 10-15 people (or even guilds in one case) who I will not group with because of interaction in a PuG.

I have no idea what this adds to the thread other than PuG'ing is not only viable, its pretty easy if you have even a modicum of knowledge about content and classes (which you can get from watching tankspot videos and reading strats).

Edit:
And yeah, I try to bring friends and/or one slightly undergeared player to each PuG I make. I mean, most folks will have the gear they need so gearing up a new-raider is a good reason to run ToC10 (along with badges and that freaking expertise trinket I can't get).

Second edit:
Send Hetarn a mail if you are interested with spec/class, I may try to put together a regular ToC10 group of TNG'ers - could be fun!

Gorvena

11-19-2009, 02:09 PM

From experience - I have been leading ToC10, VoA10/25, Ony10/25 since I got back in game. Its really not that bad, leading doesn't mean knowing everything, just having a general idea of the fight mechanics and being able to delegate. Its totally acceptable to say "Tanks decide who is MT'ing and healers figure out assignments." Most people know enough about their class (especially if they have a decent gearscore, and yes wow-heroes is useful for PuGs) to be competent enough for ToC10/25. Its not like this content is hard.

And if you lead a raid you find out new things all the time, you don't have to know it all from the start - a couple of weeks ago I found out that BoP removed the debuffs from the first Northrend Beast. I am now getting paladins to BoP the tanks in the transition to the worms. You learn stuff all the time. With even a basic knowledge of class synergy you can put together a competent raid pretty easily. You just have to be willing to tell someone they are undergeared or the wrong class and be okay with the hissy fit they will throw.
I like it when someone can take the time to explain something I tried to say but am to lazy to elaborate on... ;)

Edit:
And yeah, I try to bring friends and/or one slightly undergeared player to each PuG I make. I mean, most folks will have the gear they need so gearing up a new-raider is a good reason to run ToC10 (along with badges and that freaking expertise trinket I can't get).

Second edit:
Send Hetarn a mail if you are interested with spec/class, I may try to put together a regular ToC10 group of TNG'ers - could be fun!
Gasa and I are also trying to start a semi-regular "group" of people we know and/or have raided with before. We'll even do some Ulduar for gear for people who need it. Contact Belicosa in-game if you want in.

Irontoe

11-19-2009, 02:54 PM

Moknim

11-19-2009, 03:08 PM

This doesn't work in advanced raid content, period. Hard modes and heroic difficulty require a raid leader with extensive knowledge of the mechanics of classes besides his own. And just because Blizzard has made their raids laughably easy doesn't mean that a raid leader who doesn't know about BoP removing debuffs is just as effective as one who knows different classes' roles inside out.

No, a raid leader who knows everything about everything would be better than one who doesn't, but its not possible. Really, it isn't. As Fhen pointed out, a raid leader who has a strategy and can delegate the more specialized issues to the people who SHOULD know about their classes and thus utilize those players while he keeps control of the raid is ideal.

And that is how advanced raid content is downed. You strategize beforehand (which is where all of the important things are determined - things like what exactly we are doing on ToGC Anub), delegate to heal/melee/ranged/tank groups, and the leader LEADS the raid assuming that everyone is doing what is required of them for the fight, getting on to people who aren't, and keeping it all together when the S hits the fan.

Edit to add:
It is WAY more important for the raid leader to know the mechanics of the fight than of class mechanics. Most important class mechanics/synergies can be learned/picked up during a fight, but the mechanics of the fight should be well understood otherwise it is a huge wipe-fest regardless of your knowledge of specific class mechanics.

Irontoe

11-19-2009, 03:14 PM

No, a raid leader who knows everything about everything would be better than one who doesn't, but its not possible. Really, it isn't. As Fhen pointed out, a raid leader who has a strategy and can delegate the more specialized issues to the people who SHOULD know about their classes and thus utilize those players while he keeps control of the raid is ideal.

And that is how advanced raid content is downed. You strategize beforehand (which is where all of the important things are determined - things like what exactly we are doing on ToGC Anub), delegate to heal/melee/ranged/tank groups, and the leader LEADS the raid assuming that everyone is doing what is required of them for the fight, getting on to people who aren't, and keeping it all together when the S hits the fan.

You're talking about leading ToC10, VoA, and Ony. I'm talking about raid content that isn't a series of loot piñatas. There are a lot of decisions that need to be made and instructions that need to be given to specific classes/roles during (since you gave this as an example) ToGC Anub. Collectively deciding on a strategy beforehand is not enough.

Moknim

11-19-2009, 03:19 PM

You're talking about leading ToC10, VoA, and Ony. I'm talking about raid content that isn't a series of loot piñatas. There are a lot of decisions that need to be made and instructions that need to be given to specific classes/roles during (since you gave this as an example) ToGC Anub.

No, I'm not. I am going to go out on a limb and assume I have more experience with Hard Modes than you do (Sarth 3D, Ulduar HM, even ToGC [though I have only been back in game for a few weeks]) - everything I said applies to all of those raids. I have a feeling others will back me up on this. Some basic understanding of class mechanics is required, but knowing the ins and outs of every class isn't as important as being able to effeectively delegate and actually lead the raid. Then you see what worked/didn't work, re-strategize and try again.

Edit:
It may be that we are saying the same thing. Taking Anub for example - you think that in saying "strategize beforehand" I am saying "Hey guys, lets...like...kill anub and stuff," but I'm not. By saying strategizing I mean, you have positioning for ice patches worked out, tanks know where they will be tanking, and the pallies know when to BoP. You delegate to ranged, telling them they need to pull the ice down - You delegate to the pallies and let them figure out BoP rotations - You delegate to the healers to figure out exactly what they will be doing in P3. Then your job is to lead the raid and keep everyone together.

And thats all I am going to say on this.

Akuje

11-19-2009, 03:21 PM

No, I'm not. I am going to go out on a limb and assume I have more experience with Hard Modes than you do (Sarth 3D, Ulduar HM, even ToGC [though I have only been back in game for a few weeks]) - everything I said applies to all of those raids. I have a feeling others will back me up on this. Some basic understanding of class mechanics is required, but knowing the ins and outs of every class isn't as important as being able to effeectively delegate and actually lead the raid.

No, for ToGC a raid leader with a full understanding is required. He needs ot know if someone has the wrong spec, which can cause splash healing, how to identify it etc.

A leader with a understanding of fights is fine on normal modes, or out dated "hard mode" content. Current progression content is not that forgiving.

Irontoe

11-19-2009, 03:34 PM

From experience - I have been leading ToC10, VoA10/25, Ony10/25 since I got back in game.

You're talking about leading ToC10, VoA, and Ony.

No, I'm not.

. . .

Moknim

11-19-2009, 03:53 PM

. . .

Because I couldn't possibly addressing two different things in two different posts, that would be unheard of!

Also, ellipses are really useful at proving a point. Well-thought out argument is just to hard for some people (kinda like some folks just die in the fire).

To Akuje:
I don't disagree necessarily, but feel that someone needs to have that kind of knowledge (the heal lead) and is able to coordinate with the raid leader and the raiders about what to do about things like Glyph of Holy Light or something of that sort. To me the raid leader should handle the fight mechanics while the heal/melee/ranged/tank leads handle the individual raider issues. But that may just be a different style of raiding that what others are used to.

Irontoe

11-19-2009, 03:59 PM

Because I couldn't possibly addressing two different things in two different posts, that would be unheard of!

Also, ellipses are really useful at proving a point. Well-thought out argument is just to hard for some people (kinda like some folks just die in the fire).

I think my point was pretty clear without explanation, and I had to meet the minimum number of characters to post.

Also, sarcasm is really useful for proving a point. Well thought-out argument is just too hard for some people.

opalexian

11-19-2009, 04:26 PM

I think my point was pretty clear without explanation, and I had to meet the minimum number of characters to post.

Also, sarcasm is really useful for proving a point. Well thought-out argument is just too hard for some people.

...You died in a fire to Algalon last night. All your PVE arguements are invalid.

Also, GG trolling Moknim and possibly having him blow off all of TNG now. Get back in there and eat it to more fire like a good boy. :D

Agnarr

11-19-2009, 04:29 PM

...You died in a fire to Algalon last night. All your PVE arguements are invalid.
He did that the last time I was in there, like a month ago.

It's how I did more damage than him overall.

Irontoe

11-19-2009, 04:35 PM

...You died in a fire to Algalon last night. All your PVE arguements are invalid.

I died to Burning Breath, along with several other people at the exact same time. We were not getting enough heals.

He did that the last time I was in there, like a month ago.

This is true. It is also true that it was the first raid I had ever done as a melee class.

Edit: And lag, cat stepped on my keyboard, Blizzard favors Alliance, and the sun was in my eyes.

Yatokth

11-19-2009, 05:20 PM

I died to Burning Breath, along with several other people at the exact same time. We were not getting enough heals.

This is true. It is also true that it was the first raid I had ever done as a melee class.

Edit: And lag, cat stepped on my keyboard, Blizzard favors Alliance, and the sun was in my eyes.

This is a valid excuse, you all need to shut the fuck up.

Gorvena

11-19-2009, 05:45 PM

I can see your lips moving but all I hear is QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ...

Moknim

11-19-2009, 06:05 PM

Also, GG trolling Moknim and possibly having him blow off all of TNG now. Get back in there and eat it to more fire like a good boy. :D

My skin is thicker than that - my blowing off of the TNG for the past few months was more of a "I need to not be pressing the refresh new post button all day long."

That being said, I think I have made my opinion clear on the issues in this thread, and did so while respecting other folks' opinions. I long ago stopped expecting the same from others on the interwebs.

Akuje

11-19-2009, 07:02 PM

I'll just say this. I have opinions about nuclear physics, but I don't express them to others as a matter of fact, because I don't know shit about nuclear physics.

Irontoe

11-19-2009, 07:30 PM

From earlier in the thread:

@ everyone that has never raided anything past 10 man Uld or Voa:

You know why I never speak authoritatively about the subjects of Quantum Physics, running a marathon, or changing a tampon?

Because I'm fucking clueless about these things and don't want to sound like an ass.

Was that what you were looking for?

Rand_Shea

11-19-2009, 07:44 PM

I died to Burning Breath, along with several other people at the exact same time. We were not getting enough heals.

Not for lack of trying, but maybe it you see little ticks of 2K...2K...2K... you should probably shift positions.

It was either you guys or the tank.

As for being on topic...

It's one thing to say you know more about raiding than someone else and to show that they're just making wild guesses when it comes to mechanics, methods, etc.

It's another thing to pretend you know your shit just to be a douchebag.

Either way, it's pretty amusing. Please do carry on.

Agnarr

11-19-2009, 07:45 PM

Irontoe

11-19-2009, 07:52 PM

burning breath isn't avoidable. its just lucky/unlucky to get hit by it. pretty sure, at least. that's what its looked like from the few times I've been there. its the dot on the ground that you can avoid.

Yeah, Burning Breath is the core ability of the fight. It hits EVERYONE, no matter how far away they are. The longer the fight lasts, the harder it hits because of the stacking bonus to fire damage. If someone dies to Burning Breath halfway through a successful attempt, it is because of lack of healing.

Akuje

11-19-2009, 08:17 PM

Wait, you guys say Algalon, a boss in Ulduar, but you are talking about a loot pinita in VoA named Koralon...

Anything you've said before has just become invalid.

opalexian

11-19-2009, 08:57 PM

I didn't claim to know all that much about raiding, but I bet there's plenty of other people who don't know the names of those three goons either since they are just giant walking bags of loot.

I wanted to get someone in here who was actively trying to get raids together horde-side (which, for you jaded alliance-folk, is very rare, usually pugs, and even more often failtastic) and maybe get him together with some good raiders that, y'know, wanna see more than just Koralonabagalonalootathon. Just sayin'.

Oh, and actually that was his raid you were in Googe last night.