Beware of what you wish for? A Rogue drama.

[Cessily]

Ghostcrawler:

"We have a change for Vanish in place for 3.3. You will get to try it out soon (tm). As promised, if it proves a significant buff to rogues, we may have to compensate elsewhere. Just because it hasn't worked as intended doesn't mean it will be balanced when it does."


Am I the only Rogue who feels a tingle down my spine when reads this? I am not a very good player of my class. And sometimes I feel like the changes are made keeping good/very good players in mind.

Vanish working as intended is not a mathematical buff. You can't break it down in numbers. How would they compensate it elsewhere? Making Cloak of Shadows even more unreliable than it is?

I can imagine what a good player would do with a working Vanish in his hands. I can't imagine how MUCH of a diference it will make for me, depending on the 'compensation'.


What do you guys think, not only about this little fix, but about this kind of balance altogether? Do you think it's the smart/best thing to do?

[Agnarr]

Vanish sucking was one of the big reasons I stopped playing my rogue. Being rogue #895126 also had something to do with it.

If they ever actually "fixed" Vanish, it could remove the first hurdle for me playing rogue again, but I wonder about the second.....there do seem to be less of them out and about (they all rolled pallies/DKs I'm guessing).

[Yatokth]

I am not a very good player of my class.

....what?

You're great.

As for the Vanish fix, if it would become overpowered really depends on HOW they fix it.

For example, if they do this:

"Vanish gives you a 1 second immunity to all damage and you cannot be taken out of stealth for that time."

That would DEFINITELY require nerfs in other areas, because that is an absolute get-out-of-jail-free card, you can just straight vanish in the middle of a throwdown when people are wailing on you and have no reprecussions - not only that, you can do it TWICE.

I can't honestly think of a fix that would work that wouldn't be like that one.

Good rogues can already Vanish correctly. But allowing them to do it in situations where Vanishing shouldn't work (I.E. - getting your ass planted over by 2 people in 3v3 - you should have your partners get CC and then use your other outs. Vanish isn't just OMG DISAPPEAR IN MIDDLE OF BATTLE, it should require setup. I'm not saying that because I hate rogues and none of my moves require setup and I'm a faceroll Warrior, I'm saying that because it makes sense in the context of the Rogue class.) would be a significant buff, and Rogues are already strong.

I'll wait to see what their intended change is before passing any judgement on what should or should not happen to Rogues.

They're fairly balanced at the moment.

[Ryoku]

I gotta agree with Yat. Them "fixing" Vanish with no repercussions in other areas would put rogues way over the bar.

I think it's fine where it is. Takes some finesse to pull off.. And is finesse not the context of the rogue class?

EDIT: Considering they are pretty much confirming that a Vanish fix would involve nerfs in other areas, many good rogues might actually dislike the changes.

[Yatokth]

What most rogues hate is something called client-server lag, where they vanish and someone's instant attack (Ice Lance, Mortal Strike) lands anyway, and they get taken right out of Vanish.

There's no way to fix client-server lag barring making a certain action performed only on the client side, not waiting for server acknowledgement, such as the way druid forms currently work. (And much to my chagrin, the way Warrior stances do NOT work. Lol pummel lag)

Not sure if that would work with Vanish, but it -should-.

[Trigin]

I played a Rogue for my whole WoW life and I personally dont see WHY vanish needs a buff, I mean what is wrong with it?

Its pretty straight forward you vanish out of sight entering stealth. The only thing that would make it OPed is if we are healed in stealth over time ( which would nor should ever happen)

But vanish is a key part to a PvP Rogue without it we die alot faster beacuse, lets face it rogues cant take much damage. But again I dont see the problem with it, the buff on it would be nice but I dont want it to take away from my other skills which are already nerfed to hell.

But I really cant say I hate the idea until I see what the buff will do and what they will nerf for the buff

[Irontoe]

Cessily, I don't how you are in a straight up fight, but you're aggravatingly good at escaping hunting parties trying to kill you in Undercity. The Vanish fix should be a huge buff for you!


I played a Rogue for my whole WoW life and I personally dont see WHY vanish needs a buff, I mean what is wrong with it?

o.O

I played my rogue for less than a week at 80 and even I figured out what's wrong with it.

If you vanish while a spell or shot is in transit, it will hit you afterwards and take you out of stealth. Occasionally pets will continue to attack you after you use Vanish. And sometimes, just because of lag, you will come out of stealth if you're damaged a short time before you use Vanish.

[Trigin]

Well I dont get to much lag so I really havent had that happen to me but on rare occations I did have the shot thing happen but it only happened once to me that I can remember, but that was because it was yesterday, but anyway they might need to fix it before they think about buffing it come to think of it.

[Irontoe]

they might need to fix it before they think about buffing it come to think of it.

The fix is the buff. If you change an ability from the state it's been in since release, working 90% of the time, to working 100% of the time, that's a massive buff.

[Trigin]

Imo I dont think its so much the vanish but the stealth to because when I USED to lag it would knock me out of stealth at random times and it wasnt after I vanished but when I stealthed normal

[Swerto]

....what?

You're great.


I do believe this is the thing called 'modesty'. Most of us American's tend to not have it.

Regardless Vanish not working wasn't the reason I stopped playing my rogue, me hating mutilate was. So my rogue will probably remain un touched til Cataclysm, at which point I hope they make sub worth doing PvP-wise.

[Fhenrir]

It seems to me that there's only so much that can be said on this topic until we know what the change actually is. I had some things I was going to say, but the sentiments of everyone else saying "well it could be good, or it could be bad" pretty much sum up my opinion.

I've always enjoyed the finesse required to properly use vanish on my rogue in the past, so I'm not necessarily keen on the idea of anything taking that away. Beyond that? I'll keep my eye on this to see what happens I suppose.

[Yatokth]

I do believe this is the thing called 'modesty'. Most of us American's tend to not have it.

Regardless Vanish not working wasn't the reason I stopped playing my rogue, me hating mutilate was. So my rogue will probably remain un touched til Cataclysm, at which point I hope they make sub worth doing PvP-wise.

You don't know Cess. :P

Modesty could be:


I'm not the best rogue around, but I think I can add my opinion here.

What she said was almost self-deprecation, when to be honest, she's better than at LEAST 90% of the people on this forum.

I'm not the best warrior around, myself, but I feel I can add my opinion here. :P

And outside the US servers, some rogues still pvp sub, I believe. One of its main problems is supporting both Ambush and Hemo, when they require different weapons, as well as hemo being balls now.

[Swerto]

I know the problems with sub, that's why I don't play it. I wish Sub didn't suck so much dick... because I want to try shadowdance and I want shadowstep back.

[Fhenrir]

It's worth noting that there's nothing stopping you from playing with whichever spec you like. If you aren't seriously competing to try and get a top title, there's no reason to screw around with whatever spec you want to.

[Swerto]

There's a reason I play the specs I do play, I find them both fun and they are competitive. Sub is neither at this point because of it's severe handicap in PvP at the moment. When I do eventually get back to my rogue (probably cataclysm like I said) I probably will dual spec him so I can at least go around the world as sub.

[Xiphus]

I honestly do not really know why the rogue community has such hatred against vanish. I never really have much problems with it when I was still playing. Whenever I decide it is time to flee and use vanish, I don't get kicked out of stealth immediately unless a hunter throws a flare in that vincinity or when I got AoE-ed.

Care to enlighten me what is with all the wailing?

As for subtlety....honestly, I am never a fan. My modus operandi has always been 'wait for chaos, go in, kill the softest target, get out' and subtlety just doesn't offer much to support that. Assassination fits that methodology, though.

[Irontoe]

Care to enlighten me what is with all the wailing?


If you vanish while a spell or shot is in transit, it will hit you afterwards and take you out of stealth. Occasionally pets will continue to attack you after you use Vanish. And sometimes, just because of lag, you will come out of stealth if you're damaged a short time before you use Vanish.

These are documented bugs that have occurred since release.

[Xiphus]

These are documented bugs that have occurred since release.

So the problem lies with lag? I wonder how they are going to solve that.

[Irontoe]

So the problem lies with lag? I wonder how they are going to solve that.

The obvious solution is a split-second immunity to damage after using Vanish, but Blizzard has given no specifics.

[Xiphus]

The obvious solution is a split-second immunity to damage after using Vanish, but Blizzard has given no specifics.

The problem here would be exactly how many seconds. Personally, 1 or 2 seconds is more than enough. Seriously, in a fight, 1 or 2 seconds can easily make or break the flow of the battle, and that applies to all games featuring real time combat (not turned based, unless there's a time limit on how long your turn last).

[Yatokth]

Even a 1 second fix would make the ability twice as powerful at least.

[Xiphus]

Even a 1 second fix would make the ability twice as powerful at least.

Hmmm, 0.5 seconds so it won't be so drastic?

[Alphaeus]

Even a 1 second fix would make the ability twice as powerful at least.

And god knows we can't let anyone go totally immune to everything for a whole second.

Oh, wait. Bubble.

(Thank goodness for Mass Dispel).

[Xiphus]

That's because the purpose of a bubble is to make you INVINCIBLE for that period of time. Vanish is supposed to just give you time to get out of the fire! A full minute of invincibility does not serve the purpose of Vanish.

Stop confusing Pally bubbles with Rogue vanish. Those two classes do different things, and you best remember that.

[Alphaeus]

That's because the purpose of a bubble is to make you INVINCIBLE for that period of time. Vanish is supposed to just give you time to get out of the fire! A full minute of invincibility does not serve the purpose of Vanish.

Stop confusing Pally bubbles with Rogue vanish. Those two classes do different things, and you best remember that.

I play both at 80. =p


Vanish is supposed to just give you time to get out of the fire!
Which you can't do if it's bugged, oh!

[Yatokth]

Hmmm, 0.5 seconds so it won't be so drastic?

Possible, but this might not actually FIX the problem.

Therein lies the problem, you make the immunity too short, no dice, too long, overpowered and is an instant Get out of jail free card.

[Ryoku]

Would it be possible for Blizzard to make the damage still hit, yet not break stealth?

I'm sorry, but I just see a full damage immunity becoming exploitable by a skilled rogue, even if it's in a 1 second window.

[Xiphus]

Which you can't do if it's bugged, oh!

That is why I always gouge first then vanish! If gouge is not available, throw a blind! Or a sprint!


Would it be possible for Blizzard to make the damage still hit, yet not break stealth?

I'm sorry, but I just see a full damage immunity becoming exploitable by a skilled rogue, even if it's in a 1 second window.

Though there is that little problem of a low hp rogue who suddenly die because it didn't block damage after he vanishes.

But who cares about these rogues? If we discount them, this might actually work. Give them a short window period for stealth to be unbreakable.

[Yatokth]

That is why I always gouge first then vanish! If gouge is not available, throw a blind! Or a sprint!

Indeed.

Barring people having their trinket down in arenas, blind's entire purpose is to give you time to re-enter stealth.

[Ryoku]

Though there is that little problem of a low hp rogue who suddenly die because it didn't block damage after he vanishes.

It'd be more problematic for the unlucky Shaman who lava bursts the rogue and before the cast hits comes off with lolimmune.

[Irontoe]

# Vanish: For the first second after this ability is used, neither Vanish nor Stealth can be broken by taking damage or being the victim of a hostile spell or ability.

Sweet.

[Yatokth]

Interesting. I'd like to see arenas on PTR before passing judgement on additional nerfs.

If they DO though, I hope they make blind poison again. :3

^ Shameless hate of Blind.

[Xiphus]

It'd be more problematic for the unlucky Shaman who lava bursts the rogue and before the cast hits comes off with lolimmune.

You didn't read the phrase after that quoted sentence, did you?

[Qabian]

One second is more than long enough to get out of area effects. I'm with Yat on this could be bad for people fighting rogues, which, yeah, are a class that aren't exactly suffering in the arenas. I do have a rogue. And I've gotten that Ice Lance through my Vanish before. And yeah, it's a pain in the ass, but I always just figured it was something you acknowledge and work around, like people have said with Gouge, or Blind, or LoS.

Like how Blink is fucked up and is never going to work as "intended" or is logical because they can't change the way the terrain works that easily. So you acknowledge Blink's limitations and you just don't use it at the end of the Warsong tunnel where it's going to send you back into the crowd of seven guys chasing you, or anywhere it might be vaguely hilly for that matter. I still think Blink at the edge of a cliff should cause a Wile E. Coyote, but it's not gonna, no matter how entertaining that would be.

But I guess they tested the immunity and, while still wary, decided it wasn't game breaking? I've gotten out of six guys on my face before by jumping out of Ice Block and hitting Invis (talented to instant, but back when any attack still broke it) and somehow not landing in all the placed AE, but that was luck. Rogues are essentially being given that luck every time, free of charge.

[Ryoku]

You didn't read the phrase after that quoted sentence, did you?

I did, and I understand that you actually agreed with me.

I was just iterating the point more blatently I suppose. :p

[Lysimachus]

What Qabian said.

[Chikt]

See, the problem with Vanish is actually a problem with ranged mechanics.

In WoW the way ranged works is this - allow me to demonstrate. WITH PAINT! Sit your asses down for a game mechanics lesson, kids!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/DMDyet/SpellCasting.jpg

Spectacular.

OKAY! So it's like this. Lets say I'm the caster and Cessily is my target. She's the max distance away that I can cast at (36 yards) and I cast a Lava Burst.

To understand what happens next, you have to understand the way that MELEE damage works. Is the target in range? Yes. Then hit them. Lets say for the sake of making it easy to imagine, the damage you do to the target is actually contained in code in the weapon. So when weapon meets the target, the damage attributes on the weapon are subtracted from the targets total health. Simple, right?

Back to the previous example - the issue here is that the damage attributes are contained inside the spell itself - literally. So when you get that cast off, there's still no guarantee it'll actually do anything until it actually collides with the target.

At 36 yards and given the speed the spell moves at, you can probably say it's going to take a second to get from you to the target.

Cessily vanishes.

A second later, the spell collides with her and brings her out of vanish because - even though the spell left my hands a second ago - the information saying "take off ungodly amounts of HP" hasn't connected with Cessily yet.

With this change, it means that when the spell connects with Cessily, I'll instead get an "immune" or "miss" message - even though I got the cast off before she vanished - and have to wait for her to pop out of stealth.

I'm sure that my fellow spell casters that have paid attention to how their spells function will have seen how they can get off a big cast, it can be in mid air, and the person it's flying towards can pop something defensive to mitigate it mid-flight (it's particularly annoying with Paladins and Rogues). Ironically, grounding totem doesn't work on spells mid-flight (that would be awesome).

There's no perfect system and I think that the Vanish fix could have probably been made on the spell casting end of things. While having it so that damage is instantly subtracted from the persons HP the moment the spell leaves my hands would be weird, but preferable to what we have now - which is basically melee made ranged.

So keep that in mind, casters. The longer the distance from your target, the longer the travel time, the more response time they have to mitigate your damage.

Mathematically it's probably something along the lines of Distance x 3 / 100 = Estimated total travel time. Add your cast time onto that and you get an idea of how much longer it actually takes for your damage to actually be done to a target.

[Kaliera]

Ironically, grounding totem doesn't work on spells mid-flight (that would be awesome).


That has more to do with targeting mechanics than it does with damage mechanics though. When the GT buff is applied, it's just sending a message that says "hey, spell-that's-targeting-my-buff-target, target me instead!" Since a spell cannot change targets mid-cast (at least currently, who knows in the future), the victim eats the spell instead of the totem, the totem gets wanded, and the mage pushes his/her /lol macro!

[Leyujin]

Quote:

# Vanish: For the first second after this ability is used, neither Vanish nor Stealth can be broken by taking damage or being the victim of a hostile spell or ability.

Dio, from what I understand from this, the rogue will *still* take damage, just it won't break the stealth. So you won't get an "immune", just they'll remain stealthed after the ungodly lava burst.

... I'm not entirely sure of what you were trying to argue, so maybe I'm agreeing with you, or we're talking about different things? Hungh!

[Ansha]

See, the problem with Vanish is actually a problem with ranged mechanics.

I'm sure that my fellow spell casters that have paid attention to how their spells function will have seen how they can get off a big cast, it can be in mid air, and the person it's flying towards can pop something defensive to mitigate it mid-flight (it's particularly annoying with Paladins and Rogues). Ironically, grounding totem doesn't work on spells mid-flight (that would be awesome).

Back in the days when AP-PoM-Pyro worked, I remember that being a big deal. You'd find your Pyroblast getting Divine Shielded or Spell-reflected, but one way around that was to pop it point-blank. No travel time means no chance to react.

[Chikt]

Quote:

# Vanish: For the first second after this ability is used, neither Vanish nor Stealth can be broken by taking damage or being the victim of a hostile spell or ability.

Dio, from what I understand from this, the rogue will *still* take damage, just it won't break the stealth. So you won't get an "immune", just they'll remain stealthed after the ungodly lava burst.

... I'm not entirely sure of what you were trying to argue, so maybe I'm agreeing with you, or we're talking about different things? Hungh!

I was more just discussing the mechanics, not making an argument for or against it - in most situations I can find the logic in Blizzards choices.

You do have a point though, it doesn't say it makes them immune to damage. Just that damage won't break it. Which is a really great middle ground.


Back in the days when AP-PoM-Pyro worked, I remember that being a big deal. You'd find your Pyroblast getting Divine Shielded or Spell-reflected, but one way around that was to pop it point-blank. No travel time means no chance to react.

Typically a bad idea as a shaman at least.

[Xiphus]

And a pretty good middle ground. Vanish is an escape mechanic, not an invulnerability mechanic, so it more or less serves its purpose if the rogue doesn't Vanish at near death. Rogue gets back to stealth, rogue is not kicked out of stealth, rogue can attempt another approach. Nothing wrong with that.

[Yatokth]

Back in the days when AP-PoM-Pyro worked, I remember that being a big deal. You'd find your Pyroblast getting Divine Shielded or Spell-reflected, but one way around that was to pop it point-blank. No travel time means no chance to react.

This is incorrect, at least for Spell Reflect.

If I SR after a cast is finished, it still hits me, even if it has travel time.

What you're getting is lag, Dio.

[Chikt]

This is incorrect, at least for Spell Reflect.

If I SR after a cast is finished, it still hits me, even if it has travel time.

What you're getting is lag, Dio.

I never said anything about SR, as far as I am aware it works just like Grounding Totem. I was more commenting that getting into Melee is a bad choice for Shaman. XP

EDIT: SR, technically, isn't a defensive mechanic. It's offensive, like Grounding Totem. It has an active effect on the other player - redirecting casts. But defensive abilities - cloak, bubble - what I said mechanics wise is exactly how they work.

[Agnarr]

This is incorrect, at least for Spell Reflect.

If I SR after a cast is finished, it still hits me, even if it has travel time.

What you're getting is lag, Dio.

I'd have to do some testing, but I seem to think it's the opposite, in that if I pop Spell Reflect when a spell is traveling toward me, so long as I popped it soon enough for the half second of latency to actually register I did in fact cast it before I get smoked, I think it will still reflect it.

But like I said, I'd need to do some testing and actually see for certain.