Hit Cap and YOU

[Lisbet]

Hello, welcome to Hit Cap Math! I will be your host this evening! Please bare with me, as I know very little about Melee hit. Anyone with any information on that PARTICULAR subject is welcome to pop in and speak up :)

NOW: Spell Hit Cap - You need 26.23 hit rating per 1% spell hit at level 80.

Spell hit cap in Wrath is 17% to never miss. For everyone that casts spells. That's Mages, Warlocks, Moonkin, Ele Shamans, Shadow Priests.. and the occasionally stupid Deathcoil spaming DK.

Alliance get a free 1% so long as they ARE a Draenei, or HAVE a Draenei in their raiding group.

Shadow priests and moonkins can both bring 3% hit to each target they're beating up on. Its much easier for shadow priests to bring then moonkin, but if you're not running with an Spriest for 10 mans, and your moonkin doesn't have imp FF, they're bad and need to be replaced.

So 17% - 3% = 14% for Horde.
17% - 3% - 1% = 13% for Alliance.

Thus Right now, fully naked and untalented, a horde caster needs 14% hit. An Alliance Caster needs 13%.

K. Now we go into talents -

Mages - Arcane:
Raid buffed you only need 184 hit(which is 7%)

Frostfire:
Raid buffed you need 263 hit(which is 10%)

Fireball:
Raid buffed you need 342 hit(which is 13%)

Moonkin - 2/2 balance of power = 4%
Which leaves 9% to make up, or 237 hit given an ideal situation

Shadow Priests - Shadow priests only need 11% base hit due to talents. 10% with a draenei in your group or if you ARE a Draenei. Or in hard number terms, 263 hit rating with draenei, 289.7 with out one.

Warlocks - Warlock is the only one I'm 100% unsure of. As far as I can FIND, warlocks get 3% at the top of the affliction tree. (Confirm?) Which would mean they would only need 11% or 10% respectively, much like Shadow priests.



Now casters MUST REMEMBER - they need to be as close to these numbers as they can get WITH OUT GOING OVER. Going over is wasted stats, as 17% is a hard cap and anything more is absolutely useless. Going under by a point wont bring about any issues, but going UNDER these numbers to far will result in lost dps due to misses.

I hope this helps :) Again, any melee player who has hit tips can post under here and I'll update accordingly ;p

[Broxigan]

Warlocks - Warlock is the only one I'm 100% unsure of. As far as I can FIND, warlocks get 3% at the top of the affliction tree. (Confirm?)



YOU ARE USELESS TO ME!

[Irontoe]

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/

FAQs at the top of each forum include hit caps for various specs. Problem solved.





HOW THE FUCK IS THAT TROLLING, LISBET?

[Gorvena]

The problem I have at this point is how much hit is built into my gear. Arcane with more than 300 in +hit is a horrible waste I know, but I have no hit gems equipped. I *might have a +crit/+hit enchant somewhere, but dropping it will still leave me 'way overcapped...

[Lisbet]

YOU ARE USELESS TO ME!


Warlocks - Warlock is the only one I'm 100% unsure of. As far as I can FIND, warlocks get 3% at the top of the affliction tree. (Confirm?) Which would mean they would only need 11% or 10% respectively, much like Shadow priests.



I FIXED IT, YEESH.

[Serenity]

Ret paladins need 8%, or approximately 269 hit rating, to be effectively capped. While most of our abilities are considered melee, including Judgement and Hammer of Wrath, others such as consecrate and exorcism are dictated by spell hit.

However, any additional hit rating past 8% is a waste since it would take way too much stacking to be noticeable and would be a severe drop in DPS. Just cap the majority of your abilities with 8% rating and you're golden; just stack as much STR as possible after that! (:

Edit: Wow, totally wrote 296 instead of 269!

[Thalevia]

From my understanding being a point or two over isn't the end of the world, wasted stats or not. If you are even a point under, the game will round down your hit rating to the whole number regardless of what the decimal points say on your character sheet. Or so I have been told. So better a point over than one under. So if your at 10.99, the game will count you as being at 10%

[Serenity]

From my understanding being a point or two over isn't the end of the world, wasted stats or not. If you are even a point under, the game will round down your hit rating to the whole number regardless of what the decimal points say on your character sheet. Or so I have been told. So better a point over than one under. So if your at 10.99, the game will count you as being at 10%

If this is a response to me, I didn't mean to give that impression. I'm merely saying that actively adding hit cap past the 8% for the few abilities under spell hit would be unbeneficial at best. I say this at least relative to ret paladins.

But in regards to this rounding business, I'm pretty sure that's untrue. Reaching hit cap doesn't happen in "tiers" of whole percents, and the numbers past the decimal points matter. Being a few points above hit cap is better than below, and is almost unavoidable.

[Cyrass]

Ret paladins need 8%, or approximately 296 hit rating, to be effectively capped. While most of our abilities are considered melee, including Judgement and Hammer of Wrath, others such as consecrate and exorcism are dictated by spell hit.

However, any additional hit rating past 8% is a waste since it would take way too much stacking to be noticeable and would be a severe drop in DPS. Just cap the majority of your abilities with 8% rating and you're golden; just stack as much STR as possible after that! (:

If memory serves, it's actually something a bit more obscure like 8.2%.

Also, Enhancement Shaman: Gear to the spell cap if possible. It's worth mentioning that Improved DW will increase you spell hit as well.

[Serenity]

If memory serves, it's actually something a bit more obscure like 8.2%.

Also, Enhancement Shaman: Gear to the spell cap if possible. It's worth mentioning that Improved DW will increase you spell hit as well.

Perhaps you enhancement shamans are different for using two 1-handers or something, but ret pally cap is indeed 8%.

Also, I'm looking it up in case I'm wrong. I'm wrong a lot. :X

[Cyrass]

Perhaps you enhancement shamans are different for using two 1-handers or something, but ret pally cap is indeed 8%.

Also, I'm looking it up in case I'm wrong. I'm wrong a lot. :X

Melee hit cap for two-handers, single one-handers and melee abilities regardless of weapon choice are the same for every class. Only thing that changes with DW is the auto-attack hit cap, which soars astronomically.

[Broxigan]

Melee hit cap for two-handers, single one-handers and melee abilities regardless of weapon choice are the same for every class. Only thing that changes with DW is the auto-attack hit cap, which soars astronomically.

27% if I recall for the hard cap on DW auto hits.

For Titan's Grip that is. Not sure if it is the same for rogues/ect.

[Cyrass]

27% if I recall for the hard cap on DW auto hits.

For Titan's Grip that is. Not sure if it is the same for rogues/ect.

Whatever it is, it's ridiculously high. Enough that it's unrealistic to say "gear for DW auto-attack cap."

[Akuje]

Moonkins are actually 236.2 in ideal circumstances, so to round up to 237 may be a bit "misleading" as we also say don't go over =p (says the moonkin who has way too much hit and just can't find where to purge it.)

Also, for moonkins, I strongly suggest Improved Farie Fire, as it's a minor armor reduction, and from what i recall, Misery isn't, is it?


Hey, I found the nifty chart from the guide I was using when I was first learning moonkin


A: In TBC the spell hit cap was 16%, with 1% that you could never push off the attack table. With LK, they’ve removed that last 1% making the new hit cap 17%. The hit/1% conversion at 80 is 26.23/1%, this means that with no hit talents, the hit cap is 445.91. Since Balance of Power gives us 4%, our Hit Cap with no Misery is 340.99. Add in Misery’s benefit of 3% more hit and the cap is 262.3. For Night Elves that have a draenai in their raids their hit cap with Misery, Balance of Power and Heroic Prescence is 236.07.

For a shorter version:
Untalented: 445.91
BoP specd: 340.99
BoP w/ Misery(IFF): 262.3
BoP w/ Misery(IFF) and Draenai: 236.07

[Thalevia]

If this is a response to me, I didn't mean to give that impression. I'm merely saying that actively adding hit cap past the 8% for the few abilities under spell hit would be unbeneficial at best. I say this at least relative to ret paladins.

But in regards to this rounding business, I'm pretty sure that's untrue. Reaching hit cap doesn't happen in "tiers" of whole percents, and the numbers past the decimal points matter. Being a few points above hit cap is better than below, and is almost unavoidable.

It was in response to Lisbet's "It's better to be under than over" statement. The reason I am questioning it is because the rounding comment came from someone in my guild who is a much bigger math person than me and paid a lot more attention to the mathematics behind the various stats than most of the guild did at the time. So I am inclined to trust his rounding comment. That and when I was under cap, at least in BC, I noticed my misses corresponded with his comment. IE I was 1.5% short the cap but missed 2% of the time both numbers disregarding that inevitable 1% we all had in BC.

Granted with all the changes in Wrath, it could easily be an entirely different game now but I will still itemize to be over a couple points verses being under not that it's all that difficult as you said with the way gear is. All the stuff that could have upgraded for me in Ulduar shoves me so over the cap its stupid. I think even now I still sit at 300 and change putting me something around 12-13% when I only need 11.

[Qabian]

I always just used Rawr to decide if I should under or over my hit rating. Someone else write the math for me!

Point being for casters at least, everyone needs 17%. Don't get too stuck on "my spec needs this #" because it is dependent on where you've put your talent points. You should be talenting hit if it's viable in the path you're going down definitely, since missing is so fail. But the 17% is the same for all the spells, and the rest, just know what buffs your raid brings and what talents you're working with to find out the magic number for your gear. You can even eat food for hit rating. Easy. And bring alternatives for the day your SPriest/Boomkin/Draenei doesn't show up. *mutters something disparaging about Draenei*

[Lailinarel]

I believe Cyrass was correct with his statement that the melee soft hit cap was 8.2% This is for all melee skills and abilities, regardless of class (not factoring talents) however as stated, DW auto attack suffers what I believe is a 15% hit penalty. Putting you up at a required 23.2% or something like that. The reasons for Enh shammies to go for the spell hit cap twofold, 1. For the white damage. Seeing as how you're duel wielding, the extra bit you get will help your dps, even if it isn't a massive boost and 2. Because as much as 50% of an Enh shammies dps can come from spells. I seem to recall being told that spell power is only barely outranked by AP in stat value (primarily because of the fact that AP also gives SP to Enh shammies)

Granted, I haven't played DW dps since BC and my Enh shammy knowledge on hit / sp comes mostly from a guildy explaining why the Hit/SP use effect trinket from 25 man Razorscale was just as good for him as it was the mages he out rolled on it. Seeing as he had only been 80 for 3 weeks (Ulduar was new and he had done naxx 10 all of twice) and he was pulling 3k dps. I was inclined to trust his information.

[Gorvena]

Anyone know where I can find solid math-based hit cap numbers for Elemental Shaman?

[Haldren]

A Horde shaman will need (with the 3% from talents):

No Misery or Imp FF: 14% or 367.25 hit rating.

Misery or Imp FF: 11% or 288.55 hit rating.

An Alliance shaman (woo an extra 1% for heroic presence) will need:

No Misery or Imp FF: 13% or 341.02 hit rating.

Misery or Imp FF: 10% or 262.32 hit rating.

EDIT: For clarity, this is an answer to the above question about elemental. This in no way shape or form has anything to do with enhancement.

[Swerto]

27% if I recall for the hard cap on DW auto hits.

For Titan's Grip that is. Not sure if it is the same for rogues/ect.
All dual wield is the same, if you used two 1h's as a warrior it would be the same cap.

You only need 8% (roughly 260) as a fury warrior if talented for the extra 3%, you can have more but you shouldn't go out of your way.


oh and


Dual-wielding white hit cap without Precision: 919 hit rating to remove the 28% miss rate.

Dual-wielding white hit cap with 3/3 Precision: 820 hit rating to remove the 25% miss rate.

Titan's Grip yellow hit cap without Precision: 460 hit rating to remove the 14% miss rate.

Titan's Grip yellow hit cap with Precision: 361 hit rating to remove the 11% miss rate.

[Lisbet]

Anyone know where I can find solid math-based hit cap numbers for Elemental Shaman?

Elemental Shaman (horde at least) Need about 12% hit hon.

I run 11% on my ele shaman with no misses. My friendly neighborhood Ele shaman friend, Setzar - said to run 10%, but I find myself missing if I'm under 300 hit and with out a shadow priest.

So, 300 hit w/o shadow priest
about 285-290 with.

[Orin]

This is for Elemental Shamans.


You need 26.23 hit rating per 1% spell hit at level 80.

Caster hit is 17% to never miss

IFF and Misery give 3% Hit debuff to the target.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=33602
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=33193

Heroic Presence gives 1% to the party.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=28878

Elemental Precision 3/3 gives 3% hit.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=30674

Doing the math from there, 3+3+1 = 7. 17% - 7% = 10% that you need from gear.

10 * 26.23 = 262.3 Hit Rating. Round it up to 263.

If you do not have Heroic Presence, 11 * 26.23 = 288.5 Hit Rating. Round it up to 289.

If you have Heroic Presence but no IFF/Misery, you need 13%. 13 * 26.23 = 341 Hit Rating.

Remove Heroic Presence, as well as no IFF/Misery, you need 14% * 26.23 = 367.22. Round up to 368 Hit Rating.


If you are still missing any spells when above those numbers with the appropriate buffs, you should look to see if the target actually had the debuffs you would expect. Misery can fall off after 24 seconds and may not be put back on immediately, and IFF isn't always put up on trash mobs and adds, and on some encounters with phase changes like Anub after a burrow it will need to be re-applied when he emerges.

[Gorvena]

This needs updating. A lot.

Arcane mages got raped in the re-treeing and need roughly the same hit as fire now.

[Villayna]

With the new interface it shows you exactly how much you will miss against different level mobs. It's definitely one of the better interface improvements they've put into the game in a while.

edit: going to unsticky this, as Gorvena is correct. The other stickies probably need to be reviewed as well.

[Gorvena]

But how accurate is it compared with the *real* math that takes all of the raid buffs into consideration? I'm pretty happy with my dps now that I cranked up my hit points, but I want to make sure that I am squeezing every last drop out and not wasting any points.

Yeah, I'm obsessive...

[Jeedup]

Even with the new changes, you still want to have an unbuffed hit percentage of a certain value. Casters and Melee will have various degrees of difficulty, but its still a valuable change.

[Abric]

The stats on your character sheet now factor in the buffs you receive from others during a group or raid. Though, that doesn't mean diddly do with hit because nobody gives +hit anymore in their buffs; hit is now a personal stat (i.e. self buffs/talents).

[Atlarian]

As a Shadow Priest, I still need 17% hit rating...but I get it from my Spirit. Woo.

[Lailinarel]

Casters will still need a total of 17% hit for a raid boss. The character sheet should factor in + hit talents. (at least with my rogue it does)

Melee special hit cap, as well as 2 hander hit cap should still be 8%. (Specials being 'yellow' hits such as heroic strike or sinister strike.) This stays the same even when dual wielding.

Duel wield hit cap is 27%. I haven't done research for classes / specs for exactly how close to this most folks are supposed to get, but I know for rogues a pretty standard rule was to at least get to poison hit cap (which utilizes spell hit which scales differently than melee hit!) and for fury warriors the change in heroic strike pretty well means you'll likely need to get at least near white hit cap. (As opposed to the 5% you could sneak by with before.) That said, fury warriors get 3% hit from fury and first tier combat has a 6% spell and melee hit talent. Dunno about EnH shammies.

((Some quick updates from someone just shy of awesome at pve.))

[Swerto]

Fury warriors now need to hit hard cap, which is 25%. We get a 3% crutch, but that's still a LOT of hit rating. Until we hit soft cap, we can't stack any other secondary stat or PvE becomes a miss fest.

[Duroxas]

YOU PEOPLE ARE (( almost ))COMPLETELY USELESS!

Where is some warlock info?! >:[

[Tylorvias]

Warlock
--------

Are you alliance? Y/N

If yes, 16%

If no, 17%

Do you have a raiding guild Y/N

If no, then you aren't reliably with a shadow priest. Get 16% as alliance, 17% as horde.

If yes, do you regularly raid with a shadow priest? If yes and alliance, you need 13%, if yes and Horde, you need 14%, if no, see above.

The end.

[Duroxas]

Thaaank you Demitri :3

[Moknim]

Warlock
--------

Are you alliance? Y/N

If yes, 16%

If no, 17%

Do you have a raiding guild Y/N

If no, then you aren't reliably with a shadow priest. Get 16% as alliance, 17% as horde.

If yes, do you regularly raid with a shadow priest? If yes and alliance, you need 13%, if yes and Horde, you need 14%, if no, see above.

The end.

That is completely wrong. There are no spell hit debuffs like there used to be. Warlocks need 17%.

In fact, it may be best to delete this thread as it is just confusing with the 4.0.1 overhaul.

[Duroxas]

That is completely wrong. There are no spell hit debuffs like there used to be. Warlocks need 17%.

In fact, it may be best to delete this thread as it is just confusing with the 4.0.1 overhaul.

*facepalm*

[Swerto]

That is completely wrong. There are no spell hit debuffs like there used to be. Warlocks need 17%.

In fact, it may be best to delete this thread as it is just confusing with the 4.0.1 overhaul.
Debuffs?

Draenei give a passive 1% to raid. Shadow priests give a passive 3% to spell hit (I think). This means warlocks wouldn't need to stack the full 18%, and those stats could be reforged to something amazingly badass, like destro mastery, or haste, or crit.

[Moknim]

Debuffs?

Draenei give a passive 1% to raid. Shadow priests give a passive 3% to spell hit (I think). This means warlocks wouldn't need to stack the full 18%, and those stats could be reforged to something amazingly badass, like destro mastery, or haste, or crit.

The debuff that provided that was Misery (S.Priest) or Imp.Faerie Fire (Moonkin) - both those spells went away in 4.0.1. Much how Draenei don't give the 1% to the raid, it is only personal now.

Warlocks currently need the full 17% - either that or all the ElitistJerks folks are morons and are stacking 3-4% too much hit.

Geeze, I'm not even in game - they announced the hit changes forever ago.

[Lailinarel]

The debuff that provided that was Misery (S.Priest) or Imp.Faerie Fire (Moonkin) - both those spells went away in 4.0.1. Much how Draenei don't give the 1% to the raid, it is only personal now.

Warlocks currently need the full 17% - either that or all the ElitistJerks folks are morons and are stacking 3-4% too much hit.

Geeze, I'm not even in game - they announced the hit changes forever ago.

Moknim is teh corrects.
Draenei no longer provide a 1% hit raid buff, all cast spell hit debuffs are gone and spell hit is 17% not 18%.

I think my post was pretty accurate info. Warlocks = casters ergo warlock hit cap is 17%. Ta-da!


Warlock
--------
Completely out of date inaccurate info.
The end.
No, Nein, and Nope.

[Haldren]

Let's not forget that they're hit scaling each tier of raiding in Cataclysm.

So, whatever your hit cap is now (assuming the same cap applies in the first tier of Cata raiding) is only good for release to first major content patch.

Then hit cap goes up.

[Lailinarel]

This is a good point, they'll probably update your character sheet tooltips when they do that. Hopefully.

[Swerto]

Fury hit cap doesn't go up, because we have to hit 25% before doing anything, ugh.

[Cyrass]

Fury hit cap doesn't go up, because we have to hit 25% before doing anything, ugh.

Only if you want to never miss on Auto Attack. IIRC, the Hit cap for special moves is still 8%

[Swerto]

Fury still needs hard cap, due to the way rage works now. It's our first priority, both Blizzard has stated this, as well as EJ. Arms only needs soft cap, rogues only need soft cap, enhance shamans only need soft cap. The reason we need hard cap is purely because of the new rage mechanics for fury. Misses completely cripple the class.

[Jeedup]

....seriously? The fuck ever thought THAT was a good idea? And I don't understand how it effects Fury, and not Arms as well (or hell, Protection).

Really not making me not too excited to play again.

[Moknim]

....seriously? The fuck ever thought THAT was a good idea? And I don't understand how it effects Fury, and not Arms as well (or hell, Protection).

Really not making me not too excited to play again.

It does (I assume), but the Arms/Prot hit cap is just standard 8% melee, you have to cap your offhand.

Hit is much more valuable for all dual-wielding classes it seems.

[Swerto]

APPARENTLY we'll be stacking a lot of hit in the early raids, but later on we'll be getting so much of it passive (just like in lich king) that we'll be able to stack mastery and haste as secondary stats. Until then we'll be gemming and enchanting hit until we reach hit cap, then replacing them with strength gems and reforging slowly yet surely as we get the passive stats.

The reasons it affects fury the most is because of how fury gets rage, purely from white hits, and a 30 second cooldown battle shout (if talented). We don't get passive rage while in combat (prot gets it from taking damage, arms gets increased rage for dealing damage and 1 rage per 3 sec). Fury also gets much closer to being gcd locked than the other two specs (arms can get there if you get lucky with collosal smash procs, but otherwise not so much, you'll be filling the cooldowns with slams and heroic strikes). Arms also has that 'nothing costs rage for 10 seconds' move that I love to use in PvP. Oh, and you can charge in combat with both prot and arms to build rage.

Oh, and we still need to hit the dodge expertise cap.

Hit is still useful for rogues and enhance shamans, but because energy/mana isn't purely built by white hits, they don't have to worry about that cap so much, if they reach it they will see a slight DPS increase, but it's probably better to stack haste and mastery once hitting the yellow cap.

[Lailinarel]

....seriously? The fuck ever thought THAT was a good idea? And I don't understand how it effects Fury, and not Arms as well (or hell, Protection).

Really not making me not too excited to play again.

There's a couple main reasons fury needs more hit than it did in wrath. First, heroic strike change. With a heroic strike queued in wrath all your attacks counted as yellows(at least as far as hit was concerned) even off-hands. Now you combine this with 50%+ crit rates and high armor pen at the end of the expansion and an offhand crit could potentially give you in the realm of 80+ rage. Coupled with the HS glyph you weren't gonna starve on rage.

Now you don't have the benefit of heroic strike making your auto attacks count as yellows and rage scaling is different than it was before.

Basically this means fury might be a little gimpy early on, but that's not really a surprise nor is it really new. Arms was better dps till late teir 9 if I recall, at least after they buffed it.

[Jeedup]

The reliance on hit for early stages will potentially (seeing as though we're not at 85 yet, have raiding gear, ect), will cause the spec to fall short of its needs, especially if it becomes such a necessity, that Warriors are completely gemming and enchanting for it, leaving out its essentials: Strength and Critical Strike.

But again, with it not being Cata yet, or raiding, its hard to tell.

Fury and Arms were head to head into tier 9. The random changes they would do, would sometimes cause Fury to fall back, but then another change, yadda yadda yadda. Also depends on the player as well.

[Lailinarel]

I will say (Yes this is anecdotal experience) on phase one of LK last night I had 13.5% hit and was averaging between 9 and 10 k dps, which is actually just about the same if not a tidbit better than my single target average before the patch. Keeping in mind this is as titan's grip fury, with most of my gear not having been reforged to get rid of haste etc. I think my lowest for the first phase was 8500. Hit helps, but a few misses don't cripple your dps.

[Swerto]

-sigh-

Do -not- take 4.0 LK raiding as any type of gauge for what it will be like at 85. You're working with Wrath gear, in wrath content with non cap level balance, with cataclysm stats and unfinished talents.

That's like gauging a warrior's DPS for a level 80 at level 60 back in wrath.

You want to gauge warrior DPS, wait until December 7th, get to 85, and start running heroics.

[Lailinarel]

My point wasn't that this would be the case at 85, more so just that unless our rage scaling gets nerfed more, it's not quite as bad as everyone says. I didn't min max my gear and carried my weight. That's all.