How to DK DPS

[Tsu]

Hi, I'm Insist. I'm the DK class lead for <First Legion> where I help my internet friends (you may already know some of them) slay internet dragons.

I have mostly played Unholy, and now DW frost, will try to help out with whatever I can.

Fielding any and all questions about spec, glyphs, gear, and how to adequately destroy your guild's DPS meters here.




First off, the most commonly asked question I get - what is hit cap for DK?



The short answer is 263 hit rating, or 8%.



The long answer is 263 hit rating to cap 2H specials, even though spell hit cap (what things like Death Coil and Icy Touch function off) is much higher, it is a DPS loss to gear for anymore than 8% total hit. You won't even realistically see more than 1-2 spell misses per raid, with Virulence and Misery/Improved Faerie Fire.

If you are alliance and raid with or are Draenei, you can chop 1% hit off and run with just 7% total (230 hit rating) due to Heroic Presence. Note that you must be in the same party as said Draenei for this to work.

If you are frost DW you technically only need 4-5% hit due to Nerves of Cold Steel, but I like having more to spell hit cap (17%, although you get 3% from Virulence and 3% if you have shadow priest/boomkin in raid).


Ideally you don't want to gem or enchant hit at all, but if you have to the easiest ways to do this are through Etched Monarch Topaz (8 str/8 hit) in yellow sockets, and Icewalker on boots.




To branch off here and continue about gemming, the #1 offender I see in DKs trying to improve on their DPS is far and away gems.

Here's the (updated) basic rules of gemming.

meta socket - relentless earthsiege diamond

20 str in EVERYTHING except for one nightmare tear in the socket bonus that gives you the most str to activate meta. If you lack hit you can slot a str/hit somewhere in a yellow.

Something to note that not many people realize - if you lack 10-12 hit rating, it's always better to gem that and keep 32 AP on boots as opposed to icewalker.








Will edit for more information later.

[Agnarr]

Thoughts on this (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=6&tal=0055001000000000000000000000320253503502031123 3105101351000000000000000000000000000000) for a frost-based 2H build?

[Grayslin]

Why did you take nerves of cold steel for a 2H build?

Or did you mean to say DW?

Also, I'm of the opinion that rune tap is pretty much worthless without the imp rune tap to boost it. That point is probably better off somewhere where it nets you extra damage.

[Agnarr]

Err, no. seems I linked the wrong build. Let me get back on that.

Edit: How about this (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=6&tal=0355021000000000000000000000320250503002031123 3105101351030000000000000000000000000000)?

[Grayslin]

No killing machine? I'd drop some stuff in favor of that. Dark conviction couldn't hurt either.

If you want to pick those up, I'd suggest dropping things like blade barrier (you aren't supposed to be pulling aggro anyway, so defensive talents are just keeping you away from a few more points of dps.)

Other stuff you could drop:
Icy Reach - range isn't going to be a huge issue for you as melee dps.
Chillblains - I'm not a fan of snares/slows tied to your main abilities. In some fights, slowing the boss can be counter-productive. The only reason I take desecration at all as unholy (for pve) is because that 5% damage increase is too nice to pass up.
Endless Winter - More of a pvp talent, though the free mind freezes are situationally useful (See: KT, Iron Council)
Rune Tap - As I mentioned before, a 10% heal with a CD isn't really worth it. If you're going to spend the talent points, spend enough to make the heal useful.

If I were to tweak it a little, while sticking to the frost/blood scheme, I'd do this (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=6&tal=2305020500000000000000000000320050503520031123 0005101351030000000000000000000000000000)

It's mostly the same, but with some tweaks to put out a little more dps and up your RP generation. Frost strike is by far your hardest hitting attack as frost, so the more RP you can generate, the more you can use it.

All in all, the spec you've posted isn't terrible, I just see a few ways you could improve on it.

Edit: Whoops, linked to incomplete version. Fixed.

[Tsu]

You're missing several key talents in a frost 2H build, Sylennis covered a lot of it.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVMVZG0xxAbckf0Vostc

this is one of the cookie cutter frost 2H builds (sylennis also linked it) - your biggest damage ability by far is Frost Strike, so you take every talent that boosts that.

Basic rotation is (glyphed) HB OB OB FS dump OB OB OB FS dump

you want to HB anytime you get a Rime proc, and also anytime frost fever is 5 or less seconds on it's duration. Try to work in FS whenever you get a KS proc. That's about all there is to it, it's mostly just proc watching.

[Agnarr]

Dual wield frost dps build? here (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305000500000000000000000000320053503 50003112301033101351020000000000000000000000000000 0&glyph=141318010605&version=10192)

The only thing is I'd really prefer to have one more point, so I could put Virulence back up to 3/3. I do really like Hungering Cold though, I know that's often put down as mostly a PVP ability.

Is spell hit related to melee hit? I.e. will dual wielding drop my spell hit? I wouldn't think it would, but not sure. If not, then virulence isn't that big of a deal, probably, as the +hit gear I would need to make up for dual wielding would offset the spell hit for the most part.

And with the extra damage of the main "strikes" with dual wielding, would that offset potential misses?

[Tsu]

DW does not "drop" your hit, it simply increases the cap for your white attacks. So no, it has no effect on your spell hit. Technically you can get away with 5% melee hit with Nerves of Cold Steel to cap your melee specials, but I recommend a bit more for spell hit, as a missed IT or pest in a DW frost build can somewhat mess up your rotation.

[Vyn]

Arent Necrosis and Blood caked blade better for DW than Dark Conviction and Bladed Armor?

[Agnarr]

Arent Necrosis and Blood caked blade better for DW than Dark Conviction and Bladed Armor?

I cannot answer that, which is mostly why I posted the above link asking for input.

[Swerto]

Frost DW is better than unholy DW, because of this the answer is 'no'.


The 5% crit and the stuff in blood work out better.

[Vyn]

I know frost works better. Im saying that I use the same root frost, my extra points are spent in Unholy rather than Blood.

[Swerto]

Better in blood, 5% crit is much better than 5% increased damage.

[Agnarr]

Looking at the trees, my theory would be that a lot of the stuff from unholy that could buff a dual wield build relies on autoattacks. So unless your hit chance is at 27%, you're going to be missing some autoattacks on your offhand at least. So your mainhand will (I think) still hit often, but that's a reliable half-the-time white hit.

Then the blood ones are more about doing more damage when you hit and crits, but these are both white hits -and- special attacks, which shouldn't (I think) be hurt by the dual wield hit chance issue. Except for those "Strikes" (and Obliterate) that can do damage from both mainhand and offhand...not sure if the offhand damage from that uses the hit chance of the offhand, or as it's "special" its counted as two mainhand specials, one at 65% power, of if its like the tooltip alludes where if you hit with the special attack you -will- hit with the offhand special as well (one to-hit roll taken instead of one for each hand).

Edit: And that's one frood who knows where his towel is at.

[Swerto]

All strikes as frost DW will hit with both weapons. That means Frost strike, death strike, plague strike, and obliterate.

Necroxis does not affect these, and as such you don't have much of a benifit from this.

Your main damage causers (Obliterate - Frost Strike - Howling Blast) all hit and crit HARD, if you get 5% extra chance to crit, that's a huge help.


Oh and if your'e doing frost DW make sure you have the slowest, meanest, hardest hitting weapons you can get your hands on. Fast weapons as frost is a no no.

[Tsu]

sub unholy is better than sub blood for dw frost right now.

necrosis is actually better dps point for point than dark conviction.


also updated OP

[Broxigan]

Random idea for a spec I was playing around with. Wanted to try out Unholy and see if it compares to Blood right now.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVMVh0cZZfM0ItcdM0uxbhIo:LpGmVM

Note: This is for heroic 5 mans.

[Grayslin]

The glyph choices seem a bit off for an unholy build. You really want glyph of the ghoul and the Unholy blight glyph is fairly nice too. The death strike glyph seems really out of place (though I think I see why from looking at your talent choices - see below)

From what you've done in the blood tree, it looks like you're trying to do something that uses death strike, but you don't really want that in your standard rotation if you aren't blood. Without the talents that increase its damage further down in that tree, it's not a very good dps ability.

Veteran of the 3rd war is nice, but I"m not sure it's really worth passing up gargoyle and rage of rivendare and having to pick up extra blood talents (like death rune mastery), which really aren't that useful for an unholy build, in order to get to it.

I'd also consider finding a point somewhere for bone shield. A lot of people look at the defensive role of that talent and don't notice that it also provides a flat 2% damage buff when active.

Other than those few issues, the talent choices seem fairly spot on. I think you could get by with this build in heroics, but if you're really wanting to compare its dps to blood, you should take full advantage of the unholy tree's strengths - namely the pets, for which you're missing two key things (gargoyle and glyph of the ghoul)


Edit: Also, damn you for making me nostalgic for the unholy tree.

[Lailinarel]

Just for clarification the DW hit penalty is 15% on white damage, it does not have any effect on your specials, spells or anything else, including double handed specials. The hit cap for a DW Oblit is still 8%, But it effects both hands, not just offhand white swings.

(Sorry bout double post, on phone and it didn't register the first one.)

[Broxigan]

Oh, yeah. Those glyphs are totally not for that build. I was looking at another build and just sort of scraped the points. Durp.

Edit:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVMVh0cZZfM0ItcdM0uxbhIo:AsLcVM

That would be the glyphs, I think.

Anyway, I am trying to sort out if the 3 minute cooldown would be worth the points on the gargoyle. I like Dancing Rune Weapon because of the 1.5 minute cooldown that pretty much makes it usable 'nearly' every pull. I try to save runic points at the end of a pull, hopefully over 60 so that when the next aoe group comes around, I get double the diseases and then I use pestilence and every mob in the group gets double diseases. It makes for some pants wetting numbers.

I was hoping that with the Unholy tree, I would be able to get a little more out of the diseases but managed to keep the strength talent from the Blood Tree.

As for the Death Strike talent...ehhhh, I couldn't think of anything to put the points in besides Rune Tap and I thought that the other one would be a little more convinent at times. Maybe not though, thinking back to how Oblit gets rid of the diseases.

Hmm.. I may just try it tonight and see what kinda numbers I get. Wouldn't hurt to test it at least.

Edit 2:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVMqu0IcbRf0stMZfM0hxc:IpLcVM

A Blood spec I am looking at trying out as well. I am sure taking Ravenous Dead over something else is pretty dumb, but meh.

Also, debating on Corpse Explosion for AOE groups or not...

[Grayslin]

Oh, yeah. Those glyphs are totally not for that build. I was looking at another build and just sort of scraped the points. Durp.

Edit:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVMVh0cZZfM0ItcdM0uxbhIo:AsLcVM

That would be the glyphs, I think.
That looks ok, though I still think you're hurting without the ghoul glyph


Anyway, I am trying to sort out if the 3 minute cooldown would be worth the points on the gargoyle. I like Dancing Rune Weapon because of the 1.5 minute cooldown that pretty much makes it usable 'nearly' every pull. I try to save runic points at the end of a pull, hopefully over 60 so that when the next aoe group comes around, I get double the diseases and then I use pestilence and every mob in the group gets double diseases. It makes for some pants wetting numbers.

I was hoping that with the Unholy tree, I would be able to get a little more out of the diseases but managed to keep the strength talent from the Blood Tree. What I'm getting from this is that you seem to be measuring your dps based on trash pulls, which is notoriously unreliable. Heroic trash dies so fast that it's not a great measure of your sustained dps which is what really counts, since boss fights is really the only place your dps matters. Burst damage makes you look fantastic on trash pulls, but it's not a really good measure of your true dps.

That said, if you're looking for even more mad AoE damage out of blood, you might try saving DRW until you have your diseases up and spread, and your blood runes (and the death runes from the death strike you should have used) are coming off CD. Then pop it and see what 8 blood boils does for you. As far as I can remember, the general consensus on DRW is that popping it before putting up your diseases is a bit lower on dps than saving all of it for your harder hitting abilities.


As for the Death Strike talent...ehhhh, I couldn't think of anything to put the points in besides Rune Tap and I thought that the other one would be a little more convinent at times. Maybe not though, thinking back to how Oblit gets rid of the diseases. Hmm.. I may just try it tonight and see what kinda numbers I get. Wouldn't hurt to test it at least.That's really the best thing, see what it does for you. My advice comes from a raid dps perspective, because I end up applying that knowledge retroactively to 5-mans. But if your goal is only to do heroics, really almost anything will get you by.

I still think trying to get to the strength talent in the blood tree is a waste of points that could be better used elsewhere, though. For example, I just noticed that you didn't take the spell damage buff talent in the unholy tree, impurity, which is really very nice and would probably work out to more numbers in the long run


Edit 2:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVMqu0IcbRf0stMZfM0hxc:IpLcVM

A Blood spec I am looking at trying out as well. I am sure taking Ravenous Dead over something else is pretty dumb, but meh.

Also, debating on Corpse Explosion for AOE groups or not...Ravenous dead is actually a very good choice. The strength bonus is awesome, and the ghoul buff it gives is still useful since you still use a ghoul as blood, it's just not a permaghoul.

Corpse Explosion is one of those talents that's really down to preference. It's not a huge boost, but for only one point, it usually can't hurt to take it for the extra fun and the small numbers boost.

Also, a note on runic power mastery: This talent is mostly useless in pve. It seems like a good idea, but since your RP builds from 0 like rage, it ends up just being a raise in a cap you should be aiming not to hit anyway. Ideally, you'll be dumping your runic power before long before it maxes; especially as blood, since it's not as GCD-heavy as Unholy and Frost.

[Broxigan]

What I'm getting from this is that you seem to be measuring your dps based on trash pulls, which is notoriously unreliable. Heroic trash dies so fast that it's not a great measure of your sustained dps which is what really counts, since boss fights is really the only place your dps matters. Burst damage makes you look fantastic on trash pulls, but it's not a really good measure of your true dps.

I usually measure my DPS on single mobs [Bosses/Target dummies]. But trash pulls ALMOST seem to be a big deal with the Random LFG tool. Especially in the new dungeons [I'm looking at you HoR]. If I were to raid or what not, I would aim for a more single target spec to get the higher numbers. Man, I wish I had time to raid.


That said, if you're looking for even more mad AoE damage out of blood, you might try saving DRW until you have your diseases up and spread, and your blood runes (and the death runes from the death strike you should have used) are coming off CD. Then pop it and see what 8 blood boils does for you. As far as I can remember, the general consensus on DRW is that popping it before putting up your diseases is a bit lower on dps than saving all of it for your harder hitting abilities.

Hm, I never thought of that. Good point.


But if your goal is only to do heroics, really almost anything will get you by.

That is true. I could face roll a random spec and still manage heroics with no issue.


I still think trying to get to the strength talent in the blood tree is a waste of points that could be better used elsewhere, though. For example, I just noticed that you didn't take the spell damage buff talent in the unholy tree, impurity, which is really very nice and would probably work out to more numbers in the long run

See, I need to read up on Unholy. I have spent so much time min/maxing my DPS in blood that Unholy seems foreign.



Also, a note on runic power mastery: This talent is mostly useless in pve. It seems like a good idea, but since your RP builds from 0 like rage, it ends up just being a raise in a cap you should be aiming not to hit anyway. Ideally, you'll be dumping your runic power before long before it maxes; especially as blood, since it's not as GCD-heavy as Unholy and Frost.

Also quite true.

Question. I cannot seem to find the answer anywhere.

But what presence should be used for DPS? Blood or Unholy? I have been using Unholy but I notice a HUGE gap in the rotation where, at the beginning of fights, I am out of RP and am getting two white hits before getting my runes of refresh.

And I know blood has the 20% damage boost...so I think Blood is the one to use...but I'm not 100% sure.

[Grayslin]

I usually measure my DPS on single mobs [Bosses/Target dummies]. But trash pulls ALMOST seem to be a big deal with the Random LFG tool. Especially in the new dungeons . If I were to raid or what not, I would aim for a more single target spec to get the higher numbers. Man, I wish I had time to raid.Well, trash dps isn't unimportant (especially HoR), I didn't mean to give that impression. It's just not a great way to measure your dps if you're trying to figure out what has the highest.


See, I need to read up on Unholy. I have spent so much time min/maxing my DPS in blood that Unholy seems foreign.Yeah, unholy is a more about pets and disease damage than the more physical-centric blood. Strength is important for unholy, but not [I]as much as it is for blood.


Question. I cannot seem to find the answer anywhere.

But what presence should be used for DPS? Blood or Unholy? I have been using Unholy but I notice a HUGE gap in the rotation where, at the beginning of fights, I am out of RP and am getting two white hits before getting my runes of refresh.

And I know blood has the 20% damage boost...so I think Blood is the one to use...but I'm not 100% sure. Opinions differ on it, but what i usually find works best is blood presence for blood dps. Since it has less buttons in the rotation and you end up sitting on your hands for GCD's if you're running in unholy presence, so you're probably better off with the harder hitting strikes that blood gives you. Last time I checked, Elitist Jerks backs me up on that, but I haven't been there in a few weeks.

Frost and Unholy dps, I stick with unholy presence for the faster GCD and the melee haste (and the faster rune CD's if you're specced into improved)