Patch 3.2 Ret Paladin Changes

[Bruuin]

First, Exorcism has a cast time of 1.5 seconds but can be used on players again. This will let paladins use it in PvP, but not while moving towards a target.

Second, we are changing The Art of War to make not only Flash of Light instant, but also Exorcism. Choose healing or damage. Paladins will have to watch for this proc and use Exorcism when it happens. The spell itself is still ranged, but the proc will only occur when the paladin is already in melee.

Third, we are lowering the cooldown and damage of Crusader Strike to four seconds from six seconds. This accomplishes a few things. It lowers burst, it gives the paladins more buttons to push since they aren’t always waiting on cooldowns, it requires a little more skill since the player will have to choose between Crusader Strike and other attacks more often (such as the new Exorcism procs), and it gives Retribution a chance to get more damage out of their Seals (providing a sustained DPS boost for PvE).

Fourth, we are removing Seal of Blood and Seal of the Martyr. The damage recoil increasingly felt like a liability in PvE, and wasn’t serving to offset the massive burst damage capable in PvP. We are buffing Seal of Vengeance / Corruption and redesigning Seal of Command with the expectation that these are now the seals of choice for PvP and PvE. Righteousness can remain a tanking seal.

Finally, we are replacing the current effect of Vindication with an attack power debuff that works like Demoralizing Shout. In PvP, Ret paladins can still debuff melee targets, while in PvE they can provide another necessary debuff in the case that the tank is not a warrior or druid. In addition, the talent may be more attractive to Protection paladins.

Well, glad I respecced into SoC since they are GETTING RID OF BLOOD/MARTYR! O_o

[Rhatizin]

Some good changes really. I know that when use blood in PVP against a target with resilience, it doesn't do that much dmg to me. People say you need a healer to use it in PVP but thats not true at all, especially with divine storm and art of war and JoL. I can see how it can hurt someone in PVE when they are dishing out really high crits though, but you're not getting high crits like that in PVP and if you are then it really don't matter if you take the dmg because your opponent is squishy and probably dead.

It will also get rid of that PVP combo for blood, where with seal of command paladins like to stun then judge for the 100% chance to crit, a seal of blood paladin likes to execute his crusader strike, judgement and divine storm and then stun which gives his cd's time to reset for when the stun wears off.

I like the exorcism changes too, especially for my prot/holy spec. It's also nice to see that art of war can make it instant, because theres been plenty of times that I have had it proc and didn't need the heal so I would just use it in hopes it would crit and put the heal over time on me.

[Phim]

I was hoping for some more utility associated with Seal of Command. Something like a spell damage/healing debuff or perhaps an interupt. These changes look like they will address our burst (see: lower) and not give us anything in return.

PTR will be up soon so I guess we can find out then...

[Phim]

New changes listed today:

Retribution

* Seal of Vengeance now deals [ 13% of AP + 6.5% of Spell Power ] Holy damage (down from [ 15% of AP + 7.8% of Spell Power ]) and has a new effect - Once stacked to 5 times, each of the Paladin's attacks also deals 33% weapon damage as additional Holy damage.
* Vindication now Gives the Paladin's damaging melee attacks a chance to reduce the target's attack poewr by 23/46 for 10 sec.
* Crusader Strike now causes 75% weapon damage. (Down from 110%)
* The Art of War now reduces the cast time of your next Flash of Light or Exorcism ability by 0.75 sec everytime your melee attacks critically hit.
* Judgement of the Wise now affects your damaging Judgement spells (Old - All Judgement spells) and Replenishment effect now regens 1% of the maximum mana per 5 sec. (Down from 0.25% every sec)
* Eye for an Eye now causes 10% (down from 20%) of the damage taken to the attacker as well.
* Seal of Command has been redesigned - All melee attacks deal [ 36% of mw ] to [ 36% of MW ] additional Holy damage. Lasts 30 min. Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing [ 8% of AP + 13% of Spell Power + 19% of mw ] to [ 8% of AP + 13% of Spell Power + 19% of MW ] Holy damage.

[Agnarr]

Since I don't play a paladin, these changes mean nothing to me.

Will ret paladins own my face faster or slower now?

[Bruuin]

People seem to be overlooking something I am finding to be very important:


* Seal of Command has been redesigned - All melee attacks deal [ 36% of mw ] to [ 36% of MW ] additional Holy damage. Lasts 30 min. Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing [ 8% of AP + 13% of Spell Power + 19% of mw ] to [ 8% of AP + 13% of Spell Power + 19% of MW ] Holy damage.

WHERE IS MY CRIT ON STUN?!!?!?!?!?!

[Immermnemion]

So in a solution to solve double bubble, they kept it, then made the class unplayable for damage in PVP?

[Ryoku]

Since I don't play a paladin, these changes mean nothing to me.

Will ret paladins own my face faster or slower now?

Well, they got a 35% crusader strike nerf, and you have to add in the fact that they apparently need TWO critical hits to get an instant heal/damaging spell instead of one (note this is compared to your zero hits to get zero instant heal/damaging spell).

I don't know where you find room to complain. You got an Armored to the Teeth buff, which I am positive will balance out warriors and Paladins.

Positive.

[Yatokth]

Interesting, this makes me believe that Art of War now procs from both white hits, Crusader Strike, AND Divine Storm, but you need two crits to get an instant FoL or Exorcism...

Hardly what I can call a good change - more susceptible to RNG than the old one. :(

[Lailinarel]

Erhm, pardon but those notes seem fairly lacking in detail, are there multiple ranks or other changes? Many seem incomplete and don't mention the balance changes. Such as the shorter CD on crusader strike. 4 down from 6...

[Ryoku]

Erhm, pardon but those notes seem fairly lacking in detail, are there multiple ranks or other changes? Many seem incomplete and don't mention the balance changes. Such as the shorter CD on crusader strike. 4 down from 6...

They also didn't mention about how Blizzard states the reasoning for the change is to make the retribution specc more challenging and intuitive in PvP as Paladins will have to choose between more abilities and such.

What Blizzard forgot was that nobody plays ret to be intuitive or challenged, they play ret to win, and this just makes it slightly more difficult to win.. So it's imbalanced.

[Phim]

Interesting, this makes me believe that Art of War now procs from both white hits, Crusader Strike, AND Divine Storm, but you need two crits to get an instant FoL or Exorcism...

Hardly what I can call a good change - more susceptible to RNG than the old one. :(

Actually, I misinterpreted the notes. AoW reduces the cast time by 0.75 seconds per talent point invested (2/2), not per AoW proc.

[Bahlmoral]

Even at weapon damage +110%, I felt Crusader Strike was a pretty piss poor 41-point talent when I leveled my Paladin.

For the holy pallys out there, what do you think of the reduction of Illumination to be 30% instead of 60%?

[Yatokth]

Even at weapon damage +110%, I felt Crusader Strike was a pretty piss poor 41-point talent when I leveled my Paladin.

For the holy pallys out there, what do you think of the reduction of Illumination to be 30% instead of 60%?

With full points in buffing Crus Strike and weapon scaling, at 80, it's currently a Ret's biggest nuke.

[Swerto]

Even at weapon damage +110%, I felt Crusader Strike was a pretty piss poor 41-point talent when I leveled my Paladin.

For the holy pallys out there, what do you think of the reduction of Illumination to be 30% instead of 60%?
Wait.. what?


You go from only doing two things, judging and excorcism, you hit 50 and then you grab crusader strike. Now you have something to do other than watch yourself auto hit until judgement is off cooldown (6 sec) and excorcism (6 sec)

Now you get crusader strike, another 6 sec, but now you're juggling three moves, then you get divine storm at 60 and now you have something more to shuffle in your solo PvE rotation.


Crusader Strikes more than just a damage attack, it's saving you from complete boredom from the class.

[Bahlmoral]

Fine, it's the greatest talent of all time. You all happy now?

I'm basing my judgement off my own experience. Once I hit 60 I switched over to Prot and kept it until 80, so I don't have the experience in using enough to wax poetic about it's greatness.

I'm just looking at it on the surface comparitive to other classes and their insta-attack abilities that come at far less talent point cost and it seems rather lackluster.

[Phim]

The most disturbing part of the 3.2 changes are the reactions people are having to the PTR:

http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=95147

Seal of Command doesn't seem viable with the extremely low damage it is doing (and exorcism not making up for it). Whats worse is that with Seals of the Pure in Holy, SoV is actually doing much, much, MUCH more damage than SoC is. This essentially brings us back to the same problem we currently face: a worthless PvP seal (SoC) and a PvE seal that is used both in PvP and PvE (SoB/M). Only this time, Seal of Vengence puts a dot on the target for 15 seconds making cc impossible.

Im really hoping they fix Seal of Command before 3.2 hits live. Knowing Blizzard, Im sure they'll go live with it despite the obvious problems and subsequent PTR "testing" (Like they did with the 3.0 OP ret damage which was obvious, and the 3.1 Exorcism on players, which again, was obvious and should have easily been caught on the PTR)

/rant off

[Lailinarel]

Fine, it's the greatest talent of all time. You all happy now?

I'm basing my judgement off my own experience. Once I hit 60 I switched over to Prot and kept it until 80, so I don't have the experience in using enough to wax poetic about it's greatness.

I'm just looking at it on the surface comparitive to other classes and their insta-attack abilities that come at far less talent point cost and it seems rather lackluster.

Erhm, but when you compare it to a rogue's or death knights new instant abilities, remember that those classes mechanics are completely different from the mana bar that paladins have. Those classes don't use skills on CD's to make a rotation, they use a limited mechanic and ability selection. So when you pick up mutilate, it's not just a new CD in your rotation, it replaces something, making less of a dps boost than if you just compare the skill to CS. Same with Scourge Strike, or Heart Strike even. They replace something else in the rotation. Regardless of it being amazing or not, you lose absolutely nothing and trade out nothing when you hit that button, which makes it better than most.

Sadly with SoV, the fact that you need to stack it up before the hit by hit damage becomes worthwhile, damages your burst in fights where switching targets rapidly can help ensure victory, as well as hurting your ability to CC a target after the switch.

[Naheal]

So, is Vengance viable as a ret seal now?

[Yatokth]

So, is Vengance viable as a ret seal now?

It's basically THE Ret seal now.

Does substantially more damage, though you're locked out of repentance as anything more than an interrupt when using it.

Get a nice health advantage with wings and you won't need it though.

[Sanrin]

It also means that if someone has the time to dispell, your damage never peaks. I wont really complain about the patch since ret was always a kind of lolfaceroll spec...and not having to work against that anymore is always nice. It seems more like they're gutting the class in the wrong direction though, it would be nice to see them give SoC a bit of a buff as opposed to release the changes as is. Much more work needed imo.

[Yatokth]

It also means that if someone has the time to dispell, your damage never peaks. I wont really complain about the patch since ret was always a kind of lolfaceroll spec...and not having to work against that anymore is always nice. It seems more like they're gutting the class in the wrong direction though, it would be nice to see them give SoC a bit of a buff as opposed to release the changes as is. Much more work needed imo.

Have fun dispelling all five stacks with a Ret on you - not saying it isn't possible but it's not really FEASIBLE, what with EVERY attack applying it, full damage from those attacks, new 4 sec CS, and in an arena situation, extra DPS from another source.

[Sanrin]

Is it every, or just special? If its every then, yeah, no dice. Although you'll be given a temporary save by things like AMS, Cloak, etc. better then it used to be.

[Swerto]

Also you'll get 5 pretty fast with all hits adding it, with all 5 up Ret is going to tear through PvE and PvP content if it's allowed to burst and not get shut down, just as it is MEANT to.

[Naheal]

Is it every, or just special? If its every then, yeah, no dice. Although you'll be given a temporary save by things like AMS, Cloak, etc. better then it used to be.

If it functions as it did before, then it's every. All seals proc off of all melee attacks now, reguardless as to whether they are auto-attacks or special attacks.

[Yatokth]

If it functions as it did before, then it's every. All seals proc off of all melee attacks now, reguardless as to whether they are auto-attacks or special attacks.

Yes, it is every attack that refreshes the 5-stack, including judgement I think since it puts it on there.