DK PVP

[Tillna]

Ok..SO I hear they still kick ass at PVP.

2 Q's.

One, what is the best every one uses spec.

Two, who needs/wants an arena partner?

[Swerto]

From what I've seen there are multiple specs still useful in arena and it really depends on your playstyle.

[Tiraline]

Ok..SO I hear they still kick ass at PVP.

They seem to think so, until they meet someone who knows what he's doing.

Any class can kick tail.

*turns off mom mode*

[Yatokth]

They seem to think so, until they meet someone who knows what he's doing.

Any class can kick tail.

*turns off mom mode*

As much as this is true, except for Shamans (lol), DKs are still very powerful in PvP.

Unholy or Frost are your best bets for PvP, Frost has a bit higher burst, but its lacking in the utility and survivability parts of DK-dom, once the initial survivability CDs are gone, Frost DKs drop like rocks. Unholy has alot more versatility, but slightly lower consistent burst.

[Swerto]

In other words


Frost for BG's/World
Unholy for Arena.

[Glassclaw]

I love Frost. Frost is so fun to use.

50% slow snare at all times as long as you hit with Icy Touch, an undodgable, unblockable, unparryable Frost Strike that does a chunk of damage, Unbreakable Armor absorbing like...1.7K damage with the glyph, making you basically immune to certain classes...I love it.

However, it doesn't have the long term survivability going for it, like someone mentioned. Resto Druids, Resto Shamans, Disc Priests, Holy Paladins, and Blood DKs seem to roll over Frost DKs. Ice-Fire Mages give me a lot of trouble as Frost as well; having your Howling Blast reflected is not fun. Anything else though, Frost DKs seem to do really well on.

Unholy has a nice balance between survivability and damage, with spells and physical attacks. And a ton of disease damage. Blood focuses on physical damage (Good against clothies) and self-preservation. Doesn't have any real armor-piercing attacks though.

Choose it based on your play style. All of them have uses against certain classes. Some do better against one class and ends up useless on another.

[Kained]

As much as this is true, except for Shamans (lol), DKs are still very powerful in PvP.

Unholy or Frost are your best bets for PvP, Frost has a bit higher burst, but its lacking in the utility and survivability parts of DK-dom, once the initial survivability CDs are gone, Frost DKs drop like rocks. Unholy has alot more versatility, but slightly lower consistent burst.


Unholy has incredible survival too, unbreakable armor.....

Also grabbing the blood survival talents and some of the frost thier high burst + shields helps them survive I've seen most run as frost where all they do is max out thier runic bar and spam the crap out of frost strike and kill something (lawl icy touch spam!)

[Yatokth]

Unholy has incredible survival too, unbreakable armor.....

Also grabbing the blood survival talents and some of the frost thier high burst + shields helps them survive I've seen most run as frost where all they do is max out thier runic bar and spam the crap out of frost strike and kill something (lawl icy touch spam!)

UB armor is a frost talent.

Frost is good in 1v1s and world, but in arenas it just drops as long as you heal their burst.

[Kaliera]

Frost is fantastic if you have the sigil from 25 man XT-002. If you don't, Unholy absolutely trounces it.

Frost's burst is heavily reliant on spamming Frost Strike, and the sigil for it increases it's damage by quad digits. It's pretty disgusting with the sigil, but without it, you're better off running with a deep unholy build.

[Catilyn]

Heh.
I use two separate Blood specs. One for Arenas and one for General/World PvP.

I can't stress enough how much your playstyle has an impact on what spec you choose, I've personally tried them all and I can deduct that each one has certain weaknesses and strengths; it's how you react to what you have at your disposal that counts.

Feel free to use some of the advice that comes through from other people but don't be afraid to try something that *you* feel could be worth your time. The more you experiment and practice with different builds, the easier it will be to define a spec that encompasses your own playstyle; thus giving you not only a more enjoyable experience but also a refined awareness of what other Death Knights are capable of.

[Sanrin]

While partly true there are some specs, builds, etc that will always shine above others if you're looking to gain a particular result. And while all DK builds have their ups and downs, blood just really doesnt cut it for pvp the way unholy and frost do...mainly beacuse blood is so reliant on armor pen whereas frost and unholy have a world of an advantage having most of their moves be spell, spell related, or armor negating effects. Blood also offers little in the crowd control department, and hysteria is really something you want to be throwing down in 2's.

[Catilyn]

A difference of opinion, I suppose.
All I'm saying is, I haven't had the difficulties you listed, with or without the Armour Pen.

[Kaliera]

While partly true there are some specs, builds, etc that will always shine above others if you're looking to gain a particular result.

This.

There is a very good reason that "cookie cutter" builds become as popular as they are. People who are interested in doing well in high-end arena research the ins and outs of their spec and come up with the most viable build to suit the desired end result: winning. A 32/4/5 dual-wield build with several points unspent may very well be the most entertaining class/spec combination this game has to offer, but if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Some people have different goals set out when putting together a spec for any purpose. If the goal is entirely just to push whichever buttons make the most entertaining array of pixely animations, then by all means, toy around with all the talents blizzard has to offer. There are an incredibly large amount of combinations to choose from in that regard. If the desired result is to succeed in a competitive environment, however, you really need to pick the talents with the most synergy. 99% of the time, said talents will be "cookie cutter" builds.

[Catilyn]

While all DK builds have their ups and downs, blood just really doesnt cut it for pvp the way unholy and frost do.

If the goal is entirely just to push whichever buttons make the most entertaining array of pixely animations, then by all means, toy around with all the talents blizzard has to offer.

Incorrect.
I think your all missing my point.
"Cookie-cutter" builds quite simply aren't for everyone, and I never said I chose Blood for pure enjoyment.

What I'm trying to say is, whatever spec you eventually choose you should be, as Kaliera says...


research the ins and outs of their spec and come up with the most viable build to suit the desired end result: winning.

The means as to how you acquire this is completely dependant on the user and their own personal playstyle.
Saying that, for example, Blood is not apt enough for Arena Combat is sheer folly - I've proved that to myself many times over.

Basing your assumptions on another's opinion or experiences is inconsistent and I feel that unless you actually take the time to try it for yourself, you'll never be able to judge which is better for you.

Yes, there are certain builds that have proven useful to what seems the majority of people, however - my point still stands that playstyle and experimentation with all different specs is the only way to judge how to go about achieving your potential.

I'm not saying that Blood is better.
I'm not saying Unholy or Frost aren't good ideas.
I'm just advising you to analyse and assess the builds yourself before becoming judgemental or biased about a particular way of talent-ing.

[Swerto]

I fought a DK who stripped to nothing but her trinkets and her weapon.

She was frost



She kited me and killed me

I got her to 10%


ugh... I hate chains of ice, considering I can only counter it once ever 1.5 min.

[Advurb]

The means as to how you acquire this is completely dependant on the user and their own personal playstyle.
Saying that, for example, Blood is not apt enough for Arena Combat is sheer folly - I've proved that to myself many times over.

Basing your assumptions on another's opinion or experiences is inconsistent and I feel that unless you actually take the time to try it for yourself, you'll never be able to judge which is better for you.

Yes, there are certain builds that have proven useful to what seems the majority of people, however - my point still stands that playstyle and experimentation with all different specs is the only way to judge how to go about achieving your potential.

A nice, optimistic thought, but so very wrong.

[Naheal]

Incorrect.
I think your all missing my point.
"Cookie-cutter" builds quite simply aren't for everyone, and I never said I chose Blood for pure enjoyment.

What I'm trying to say is, whatever spec you eventually choose you should be, as Kaliera says...



The means as to how you acquire this is completely dependant on the user and their own personal playstyle.
Saying that, for example, Blood is not apt enough for Arena Combat is sheer folly - I've proved that to myself many times over.

Basing your assumptions on another's opinion or experiences is inconsistent and I feel that unless you actually take the time to try it for yourself, you'll never be able to judge which is better for you.

Yes, there are certain builds that have proven useful to what seems the majority of people, however - my point still stands that playstyle and experimentation with all different specs is the only way to judge how to go about achieving your potential.

I'm not saying that Blood is better.
I'm not saying Unholy or Frost aren't good ideas.
I'm just advising you to analyse and assess the builds yourself before becoming judgemental or biased about a particular way of talent-ing.

What you're saying is partially correct, however cookie cutter builds are cookie cutter builds for a reason. They work. Well. Given my own playstyle, Frost fits better for me for PvP, however Unholy just outstrips Frost for Arenas right now.

[Yatokth]

A nice, optimistic thought, but so very wrong.

Pretty much this.

If you're a good player, nay, an EXCEPTIONAL player, you CAN make an optimized, yet 'underdog' spec, like Blood, work up to maybe 2k-2200.

Past that, you spec what's good or you don't go past that.

If you prey on other people's lack of knowledge, use all your strengths, and play your damndest at the spec of your choosing, yes, you can make it up 2K~ish if you're really just the shit.

But once people get wise (which they do in that bracket, sometimes a little earlier depending on who/when you play) you'll get bombed if you play something that isn't just plain freaking GOOD.

I know this, because I tried it in BC.

Fortunately, one of the 'good' specs usually fits whatever playstyle you like, and most of them have floater points that you can customize with.

THAT SAID:

I'm a diehard Arms Warrior. I was Arms in season 5 when it sucked worse than BC Hunters (No, SERIOUSLY) because I just can't play anything else and enjoy myself. I didn't get high ratings, but I loved it anyway.

So don't expect to go grab your Furious Shoulders as Blood, but if that's what you want to do, go right the hell ahead.

Maybe in 3.2 Blood will own again. WoW is always changing.

[Sejarki]

Pretty much this.

If you're a good player, nay, an EXCEPTIONAL player, you CAN make an optimized, yet 'underdog' spec, like Blood, work up to maybe 2k-2200.

Past that, you spec what's good or you don't go past that.


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mug'thol&n=Threeballz
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Detheroc&n=Denos
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonblight&n=Famezilla


Successful Blood DKs say 'sup?'

And this is just Arenas. Arenas != PvP. Just because a spec isn't as "viable" for Arenas does not mean it's bad in Battlegrounds, World PvP, or 1 on 1 Duels. They're very different beasts.

Do not be afraid to experiment, you might surprise yourself.

[Yatokth]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mug'thol&n=Threeballz
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Detheroc&n=Denos
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonblight&n=Famezilla


Successful Blood DKs say 'sup?'

And this is just Arenas. Arenas != PvP. Just because a spec isn't as "viable" for Arenas does not mean it's bad in Battlegrounds, World PvP, or 1 on 1 Duels. They're very different beasts.

Do not be afraid to experiment, you might surprise yourself.

This statement has already been made, and we all understand it. It doesn't need repeating. I was of course, talking about arenas, as was everyone else who suggested frost/unholy over blood.

Also, the first link the guy is in PvE gear, he doesn't have a PvP trinket on even - Blood is his PvE spec. Double check the spec to see its PvE-oriented. Unholy PvP is his second, double spec. Third link the guy is in PvP gear, but he's using his Unholy PvP spec already. Second link, the guy is mixed PvE and PvP, but his Blood Spec is, once again, PvE oriented.

Those guys double spec Blood for PvE (In fact, I think all their specs are the same: cookie cutter) and Unholy for PvP (The second guy specs for free Mind Freeze a bit further down Frost, but the first two are also the same I believe).

All those guys most likely just raid and pvp, blood for the first, unholy for the second.

[Fhenrir]

Oops, completely missed Yat's post. Disregard!

[Yatokth]

It's worth noting that all three of those (at a glance) appear to be dual spec DKs with PvP Unholy Specs and PvE Blood Specs. So those are actually successful Unholy DKs you linked.

That said, carry on.

Way to own my wall of text. Jerk.

[Catilyn]

Note: The previous deletion of my message was a mistake - I thought I was randomly teleported to a different thread... don't ask me why. *Facepalm*

He's right, their PvP Gear has Spell Penetration Gems on them; which is only beneficial for Frost or Unholy.


Pretty much this.

If you're a good player, nay, an EXCEPTIONAL player, you CAN make an optimized, yet 'underdog' spec, like Blood, work up to maybe 2k-2200.

Past that, you spec what's good or you don't go past that.

If you prey on other people's lack of knowledge, use all your strengths, and play your damndest at the spec of your choosing, yes, you can make it up 2K~ish if you're really just the shit.

But once people get wise (which they do in that bracket, sometimes a little earlier depending on who/when you play) you'll get bombed if you play something that isn't just plain freaking GOOD.

I know this, because I tried it in BC.

Fortunately, one of the 'good' specs usually fits whatever playstyle you like, and most of them have floater points that you can customize with.

THAT SAID:

I'm a diehard Arms Warrior. I was Arms in season 5 when it sucked worse than BC Hunters (No, SERIOUSLY) because I just can't play anything else and enjoy myself. I didn't get high ratings, but I loved it anyway.

So don't expect to go grab your Furious Shoulders as Blood, but if that's what you want to do, go right the hell ahead.

Maybe in 3.2 Blood will own again. WoW is always changing.

Then I'll prove it. It's a goal of mine, and I will achieve it.
*She smirks proudly*

I think Yatokth said everything else that was on my mind. Thanks for taking the time to hear me out though, everyone.
Bottom line is: it's up to you.

[Sanrin]

Well you'll be the one to make the impossible, possible?!

[Gorechili]

Unholy for everything.

Sigil? Frost.

Blood? Good gracious no. Never.

[Swerto]

I would listen to Catilyn, pretty good at beating the shit out of people. I watched cat take on three horde at once in storm peaks, I spent the entire time laughing my ass off from my mount (they tried to jump her, not a smart idea)

[Tsu]

It depends on what you group with in arena.

Frost for 3s/5s.

Unholy for 2s, unless you play with a druid or double dps in which case you can do frost with success as well.

Also, you need top-end gear or XT sigil to play frost. Preferably both.

Blood hasn't been good since they nerfed DRW, and won't ever be until it reaches the levels of ridiculous it was back in the day of overtuned DRW and cc breaking hysteria.

Reasons?

Nothing to offer in the way of CC or utility, and it does pure physical damage, which is terrible against virtually everything but warlocks mages and rogues. In other words, it's a shitty warrior without the MS and pinball action.

[Catilyn]

I don't really want to repeat myself too much, but here goes...

Your diagnosis of Blood having less CC is hazy; Glyph of Heart Strike is the Blood version of Desecration; since Heart Strike is one of our main attacks, it's always on the target - a constant hamstring that affects 2 targets in a cleave-like fashion.

The only difference between Blood and Unholy CC is the Ghoul Stun - which is irreverent should the Ghoul die or be CC'ed, which seems to be the case alot of the time, based what I've seen in Arenas and World PvP.

Your statement on Blood having no utility also confuses me...
You can go deep enough in the Blood talent-tree to get the needed utility from Unholy and Frost while still having all damage-beneficial goodies from Blood.

Lets see...
Vampriric Blood + Ghoul Sac is virtually a Lay on Hands for DK's.
Lichborne protects you against Sap, Polymorph, Hex, Incapacitates and Fear.
All this coupled with a refined timing and execution of Anti-Magic Shell as well as Icebound Fort in conjunction with the cleave-like Hamstring from the Heart Strike Glyph and a Medallion Trinket (or Every Man for Himself) is all that you'll ever need.

Blood seems to be singled out for many different reasons; most of which I don't actually find happening myself. It occurs to me that the ones that actually have tried the Blood spec, play as if it was Unholy or Frost - that's not how it operates, they all have different playstyles and you need to adapt to a combination of your current PvP Situation and the abilities and/or actions that are at your disposal at any given time - basically, to be a good Blood DK, you need to play like a Blood DK rather than a Frost or Unholy.

Additionally, I'd prefer such accusations and limitations to be stated by those who have actually tried it out for themselves, otherwise it's just an assumption rather than an informed opinion based on experience and practice.

Having said that, i've explained my situation and while I take all considerations into account, I do understand that there are always going to be people who disagree with me - regardless of what I say, do or act upon but like I've said before, that's your choice.
I am by no means attempting to prove the worth of one spec more than any other and I obviously can't speak for everyone considering that each spec has their own different playstyle - just like the players that use them.

I have the facts. I state them. That is all.
I have advice and suggestions based on my own experiences.
Take them or leave them - your choice.

[Yatokth]

Your diagnosis of Blood having less CC is hazy; Glyph of Heart Strike is the Blood version of Desecration; since Heart Strike is one of our main attacks, it's always on the target - a constant hamstring that affects 2 targets in a cleave-like fashion.

Desecration is much more potent, has a larger range, making it harder to get away from unholy DKs.


The only difference between Blood and Unholy CC is the Ghoul Stun - which is irreverent should the Ghoul die or be CC'ed, which seems to be the case alot of the time, based what I've seen in Arenas and World PvP.

Ghoul has a 30 second timer to when you can re-rez it as Unholy, and time spent killing a ghoul is time spent not killing you or your partner(s), which is good. The Ghoul can add decent damage, and the stun messes up healers big time. Ghoul stun is hot, and if people are at low hp, it can force trinks, which leaves them open for other CC. Or if they trink'd other CC, they eat a 3 second stun. It's on a 30 second CD. Powerful as hell.

Not to mention a good healer should see when there's a ghoul swap and heal it.


Lets see...
Vampriric Blood + Ghoul Sac is virtually a Lay on Hands for DK's.
Lichborne protects you against Sap, Polymorph, Hex, Incapacitates and Fear.
All this coupled with a refined timing and execution of Anti-Magic Shell as well as Icebound Fort in conjunction with the cleave-like Hamstring from the Heart Strike Glyph and a Medallion Trinket (or Every Man for Himself) is all that you'll ever need.

You can never have TOO MUCH utility. Sure, Blood has lots of self healing, but keep in mind most of Blood's damage is all -physical-, whereas frost and unholy pump magic damage alot more.

Additionally, you miss out on the following from deep unholy:

Night of the Dead / Ghoul in general - Ghouls are good. :D
Bone Shield - Massive. Bone Shield is incredible.
Imp Unholy Presence - Faster rune CDs in your burst presence, for UH anyway.
Desecration - AOE hamstring that gives me more damage? Do want.

Here's the utility you miss in frost:

Endless Winter - GREAT talent. The Unholy cookie cutter spec snags this one too. Mind Freeze for no RP = win.
Unbreakable Armor - Great survivability
Hungering Cold - CC.
Chillblains - Frost's answer to snare.

And what do you GET from blood instead of these?

Vampiric Blood - Self healing.
Imp Death Strike - Self healing.
Mark of Blood - Self healing. (admittedly, it can heal your teammates too)
Glyph of HS - Good snare.

So you get self healing. GREAT in 1v1 situations, I'll admit. Fighting Blood DKs is a pain in the ass 1v1, and the self healing can be used in arenas for surviving (though I rarely run into Blood DKs, so I don't know how survivable they really are in arenas). But their lack of utility/CC, coupled with my previous mention of their mainly -physical- damage, compared to Frost's lol-worthy signature FS dump in your FACE, or UH's Ghoul Stun > Garg > death rune SS dump, just adds up to be decidedly less threatening, in my experience.

Keep in mind I say all of this with arenas in mind. You come find me out in the world as a Death Knight and I don't severely outgear you, you'll probably win no matter what spec you are. DKs counter warrs, so you could probably spec 31/31/9 and beat me. But in arenas.. eh.

Blood is cool, I'll give you that. But you can't argue it's utility is just as good.

[Catilyn]

Sure, Blood has lots of self healing, but keep in mind most of Blood's damage is all -physical-, whereas frost and unholy pump magic damage alot more.

And what do you GET from blood instead of these?

Vampiric Blood - Self healing.
Imp Death Strike - Self healing.
Mark of Blood - Self healing. (admittedly, it can heal your teammates too)
Glyph of HS - Good snare.

Allright...
Vampriric Blood is NOT about the self-healing benefits. It increases the amount Heals affect you by 35% in addition to having a last stand effect on yourself - it's used to counter against people who attempt to burst you down while CC'ing your healer.

Improved Death Strike is not just about the self healing bonuses, that talent is for making Death Strike just as potent in damage as Scourge Strike.

Mark of Blood is used to help your team mate stay alive or indeed, to heal yourself during the time a Healing partner is CC'ed.

The Heart Strike Snare can be directly compared towards Desecration.
The slowing effect of Desecration is not superior - I understand that you may argue that it's an AoE Snare but in that regard, since Heart Strike hits two targets at once; it is as well.
As far as Arenas go, you won't ever find more than 2 targets within your melee-attack range (Both HS snare and Desecration require you to be in melee range to activate through the use of their respective abilities) unless your in a 5v5 situation.

If anything, I'd say Heart Strike is actually more potent.
The simple counter to Desecration is to run out of the circle and thus, get all of your available movement speed back - with the Heart Strike Glyph, you just need to cast it again right after they try to escape and off you go; no problem - Desecration is inferior in this regard due to it's immobile "snare-circle". Not only that, but to reapply the effect, you need to use an ability that requires two runes at once - something you don't always have at your disposal, it's true you could us Plague Strike, but that means wasting potential damage due to the Unholy Rune that plague Strike consumes - which means less Scourge Strikes and less damage.


Blood is cool, I'll give you that. But you can't argue it's utility is just as good.

I wasn't.
I was just rebutting against the "Blood has NO CC or Utility" comment.
Yes, it's as you say; Blood CC is just as good as the others.

[Yatokth]

Allright...
Vampriric Blood is NOT about the self-healing benefits. It increases the amount Heals affect you by 35% in addition to having a last stand effect on yourself - it's used to counter against people who attempt to burst you down while CC'ing your healer.

Improved Death Strike is not just about the self healing bonuses, that talent is for making Death Strike just as potent in damage as Scourge Strike.

Mark of Blood is used to help your team mate stay alive or indeed, to heal yourself during the time a Healing partner is CC'ed

Oop, was thinking of a previous version of Imp DS. NVM. Vamp Blood is still self healing, more HP, more self healing from your other heals, that's all self healing.


The Heart Strike Snare can be directly compared towards Desecration.
The slowing effect of Desecration is not superior - I understand that you may argue that it's an AoE Snare but in that regard, since Heart Strike hits two targets at once; it is as well.
As far as Arenas go, you won't ever find more than 2 targets within your melee-attack range (Both HS snare and Desecration require you to be in melee range to activate through the use of their respective abilities) unless your in a 5v5 situation.

If anything, I'd say Heart Strike is actually more potent.
The simple counter to Desecration is to run out of the circle and thus, get all of your available movement speed back - with the Heart Strike Glyph, you just need to cast it again right after they try to escape and off you go; no problem - Desecration is inferior in this regard due to it's immobile "snare-circle". Not only that, but to reapply the effect, you need to use an ability that requires two runes at once - something you don't always have at your disposal, it's true you could us Plague Strike, but that means wasting potential damage due to the Unholy Rune that plague Strike consumes - which means less Scourge Strikes and less damage.

Ever tried to run out of desecration? It's got a HUGE radius. Plus if you're running out of it, your target can just run the other way and haha, you are wasting your time. And in 3v3, you can and will have 3 people bunched up. (not all the time, but from time to time and depending on comp) And no, Heart Strike isn't AoE, it's a cleave effect. If you HS snare someone and then their healer comes up to them (say, to psychic scream you, who knows, maybe just while running) then they are not snared cause you already used HS, but if they run into desecration, snared like a bitch.

And you need to use PS to put up Blood Plague anyway, so you get desecration off the bat. Additionally, the 'immobile' snare circle of Desecration can be an advantage - if you get peeled off your target, Desecration stays. HS glyph has a duration yes, but it isn't as long as desecration.

It isn't that HS is bad, but Desecration definitely at least as good if not better in most situations.

Chains of Ice is better than both of them anyway.


I wasn't.
I was just rebutting against the "Blood has NO CC or Utility" comment.
Yes, it's as you say; Blood CC is just as good as the others.

No it ain't.

They don't have anything to match Ghoul Stun or Hungering Cold.

Their 'utility' is eh, maybe comparable.

[Shadowspeak]

Ugh. My DK is blood but it looks like a lot has changed since I've been away.

[Sanrin]

The point of desecration is that if you hit something it slows everyone around you, constantly. And while you need to get in melee to use it, its a one shot deal that also pumps up your damage. HS is nice, but I find that the setup for unholy/frost builds is faster and more intuitive. With frost you simply pour down damage, then once your runes are on CD you pour your RP into frost strike, which isn't really going to miss. And considering how much it costs, you can toss down a lot of them. Death Coil is nice in the sense that it has range, but I find frost strike to be just a harder hitting move in general. Additionally with the glyph you get more bang for your buck, and (with talents of course) odds are you'll be critting with FS a lot more over time.

Unholy is a different beast. It hits hard, but rather then a violent chopping you're more like a lawnmower. Throw down blight (if thats what you prefer) then gargoyle, plus your extra dot and thats a lot of sustained damage coming down on one player over time. Some of that may crit, some of it may not, but either way you've also got your ghoul. Thats close to 4+ sources (depending on if you include dots in that mix) that give you the power to chew into things. Blood is really just a matter of swinging, and fucking the shit out of one target.

Another issue I have with blood would be the fact that your slow is built into a glyph, sacrifice a valuable spot you could be instead buffing some kinda move, ability, cooldown. Where as the talents offer a bit more utility, giving a slow and a damage debuff, or a runic power decrease and a guaranteed dot. Blood does better when it has less to worry about, like hitting a single boss for example. But juggling dps, cc, as well as survival talents? I dont think that Vampiric blood, or Mark of blood really cut it to be honest. Id much rather have unbreakable Armor, Hungering Cold, or even an emergency Bone shield/AM shell/zone (again if thats your flavor).


Dk builds do offer a lot of variety, and you'll see a LOT of different specs/teams at the top, which i think is fantastic. I dont need to cookie cutter into AM shell if I dont want to, but if I do I've still got a shot! Fantastic. But blood? Its like the DK version of the ret tree. A lot of damage, a few neat moves, but at the end of the day you can still tear them to shit once they're done slamming down on their CD's assuming you play it smart.

[Tsu]

HS Glyph is in no way superior to Desecration, and if you truly believe that it is, then I don't know what to say.

The reason why is the exact reason frost trap is so good. It's not just a single target (or dual target in this case) snare, it's an entire area, field if you will, that slows things down.

Ever fight a hunter team where they frost trap a pillar, and you sit for an eternity in the damn thing fruitlessly chasing around whatever you can get your hands on while they just giggle and bounce around? Yeah, same thing. You're basically trying to compare wing clip and frost trap. No one complains about wing clip. And no good team is going to bunch up for you for the cleave to even matter, even 1800 level players know it's a bad idea to let a DK of any spec in close proximity to multiple players.

I played blood in arena last season at a 2100+ in 3s with multiple comps for kicks, it was absolutely ridiculous with the freight train that was DRW/Hysteria. However even back in it's heyday it was nothing more than the equivelent of a 3 min mage. You ran around and whacked things until you hit 130 RP and then blew all your cooldowns and gibbed something. Blood had and still has terrible sustained damage in comparison to frost or unholy, and now with those timers nerfed, there's nothing to make it remotely attractive anymore considering how ridiculous frost w/ sigil is, and the constant reliability of unholy.

Blood has clearly inferior defensive cooldowns as well, vampiric blood is nowhere near what it used to be with the increase on the timer to 2 minutes, and you already stated yourself it's biggest weakness - "it's used to counter against people who attempt to burst you down while CC'ing your healer" - this does pretty much jack shit for you aside from a bigger ghoul sac if your healer is actually CC'd and unable to heal you. Both Frost and Unholy have vastly superior cooldowns for mitigating burst in Unbreakable Armor and Bone Shield/AMZ in addition to the aforementioned ghoul sac. Mark of Blood has been dismissed as a good pvp talent since early-mid s5, as it's useless against any team with a dispel or an MS. Which is nearly everyone.

Every bit of utility you stated Blood has save Vampiric Blood both Frost and Unholy also have access too, and they make better use of it so that point is null and void.

As far as playstyles go... well frost is an obvious one trick pony, the HC burst. However, if done properly, you simply don't survive a burst from a geared frost DK who lines up procs and cooldowns correctly. Outside of this frost doesn't put out a whole lot of pressure outside of RNG FS crits. Why is this? Because all it takes to kill this specs damage is cleansing FF, which 3 out of 4 healers can do. Druids have it better off regardless in the sense that they can prehot to potentially survive a gib anyways, so it doesn't even really make a difference.

Unholy plays a lot more constant pressure. This is hands down the best spec for peeling and actual utility, and most of it revolves around the strong unholy diseases, desecration, and the ghoul. Yes, ghoul is easily cced and killed, but if you manage it properly it's a very potent tool in locking things down, not to mention an extra 500-600 dps or so all on a handy dandy 30 sec rez timer. Unholy is the best spec for sustained pressure without spec-reliant cooldowns, as you can easily drop something in a 5 SS ERW burst in conjunction with gnaw and strangulate. This along with Gargoyle every 3 minutes and the potent aoe capabilities puts out an immense amount of pressure on the other team (full set of dots ticking on everything nearly at all times is a lot more pressure than you think it is, trust me) and also sets up very easy target swaps.

Now blood. The major downside here is the complete lack of any sort of main armor ignoring nuke. With the current state of arenas (plate, plate, and more plate) you hit like a wet noodle on anything that isn't a rogue, priest, or felhunter pretty much unless you stack ridiculous amounts of armor pen. DRW has been gutted, Hysteria no longer breaks CC, and your entire spec is reliant on being in melee range to do it's damage while being innately terrible at sticking on a target if you get peeled at all. You bring nothing to the table in terms of utility aside from a mediocre snare, and you're the most vulnerable of any DK spec in terms of mitigating incoming burst (as detailed earlier). You offer no CC at all (HS glyph =/= CC), and as blood, you can't even get the better lower talents in frost and unholy. If you sub frost, you lose Virulence, Epidemic, Morbidity, and imp DG. If you sub unholy, you give up Lichborne and Endless Winter. This spec is also incredibly simple and as such easily countered in that the best way to play it is tunnel visioning something to put out pressure as it lacks any sort of CC or real target swapping capabilities unless said target is literally right next to them.

As much as everyone hopes that their unique underdog specs will work, 99 times out of 100, they don't. And that's why cookie cutter specs are cookie cutter, they work and work well. Why work harder to make something clearly inferior work when you could put forth the same effort and achieve double the results?

[Yatokth]

-wall of text and ownage-

What's your main anyway? I wanna see how you gear/spec your DK.

[Fhenrir]

What's your main anyway? I wanna see how you gear/spec your DK.

That's Tist. He plays Insist as his DK these days.

[Tsu]

I haven't arena'd much on my DK this season, and I'm usually in pve gear, welcome to armory me though.

I'm dual speccing frost for messing around in bgs, although I think I'm going to change the build a bit.

[Sanrin]

Tist is gay. That is all. : O

[Fhenrir]

Tist is gay. That is all. : O

Agreed.

[Catilyn]

HS Glyph is in no way superior to Desecration, and if you truly believe that it is, then I don't know what to say. ...

--Insert rest of the wall of text here--

Well, I'll be honest, you make a good argument.
I've got to admit, there are many things wrong with Blood, as it currently is; I'll continue to experiment with Blood as a possible PvE Spec though - with Armour Penetration, it does alot. (and since you won't have your targets moving all over the place...) or perhaps even for 1on1 PvP.

I may have been a bit too passionate about my thoughts on Blood PvP, though I still hold high hopes for it's future, so as it changes I'll continue to experiment.

I've begun trying to master an Unholy Spec that I made; more on that at a later date.
Hmm.... How unenthusiastic my situation seems now.

[Tsu]

Blood does very good PvE damage when properly geared right now, yes.

Just lacking in PvP.

[Yatokth]

Well, I'll be honest, you make a good argument.
I've got to admit, there are many things wrong with Blood, as it currently is; I'll continue to experiment with Blood as a possible PvE Spec though - with Armour Penetration, it does alot. (and since you won't have your targets moving all over the place...) or perhaps even for 1on1 PvP.

I may have been a bit too passionate about my thoughts on Blood PvP, though I still hold high hopes for it's future, so as it changes I'll continue to experiment.

I've begun trying to master an Unholy Spec that I made; more on that at a later date.
Hmm.... How unenthusiastic my situation seems now.

He basically just said what I was saying but in more detail.

Blood is good in PvE. And it's not like you can't just dual spec blood and unholy and go world pvp as blood or something.

Or you could keep PvPing as Blood. In Season 5, when all Warriors who wanted rating went Fury, I stayed Arms, because even though it was HORRIBLE, it was more fun for me. Did I get high ratings? No. But it was fun.

It's up to you.

[eurphadion]

*inserts random frost DK love* in 2s the burst is just too much for most anything to handle combined with good use of silences...still having problems with resto druids here and there though *shakes fist*

[Daly]

I abolished disease against a Unholy DK last night AND I Silenced his AMS.

He still killed me.

Yet I still won't spec Disc. I'm starting to think I may have serious mental problems.

[Yatokth]

I abolished disease against a Unholy DK last night AND I Silenced his AMS.

He still killed me.

Yet I still won't spec Disc. I'm starting to think I may have serious mental problems.

Don't worry bro, if you get disgusting good at SPriest, when the buffs come (heh) and the DK survivability or damage nerfs come (HEH) then you'll be really good!

....HEH.

[Lailinarel]

Eh, you gotta do what you enjoy. I don't play my DK in pvp because the class doesn't click well for me, I still play my warrior, even if we're getting a little bit of a nerfing here and there cause I just enjoy it. My DK is blood, even after the life regen nerfs I still prefer blood to any of the other specs simply because I don't like how they play. Now granted, my gear is mediocre and I don't really do much on the character (except dps when people need an extra set of hands) but I would still rather play him as something I enjoy and am moderately effective at than go do something I just don't like.

Be it noted that I'm not one of those people who does 800 dps and says, "But I like playing this way!" I'm still quite effective, I just don't care about being the top guy.

[Catilyn]

After much practice, and from the opinion of others, it seems I know how to play Unholy well, having said that, I still noticed myself getting more enjoyment out of Blood (and more results in 1v1 PvP)

So, I took a good long look over my beloved Blood build (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVMVh0IsbRfostGx0zZfMM:LGzVM0) and made some changes (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jbxrqIhIsfMfosZ0xZ0gG0z:LGzVMc) that I'm pleased to say had a surprising impact on my PvP focus.

Suffice to say, if you see me out in the world, I'll probably be specced Blood, and proud of it - regardless of the opinions of others.

[Sanrin]

At least bloods gettin a buff next patch! Who knows, maybe it'll rise from the grave to claim its hold over the earth!

[Yatokth]

At least bloods gettin a buff next patch! Who knows, maybe it'll rise from the grave to claim its hold over the earth!

Good one.

[Agnarr]

Suffice to say, if you see me out in the world, I'll probably be specced <insert personally favored talent spec here>, and proud of it - regardless of the opinions of others.

Only way to ride.

[Thelsuo]

It depends.

Resto druid/Unholy DK is cookie cutter best combo. But other specs work very well!

For instance, if you're rolling with a healer certain specs perform well against certain counter comps.

Healer/frost is great in my opinion against other DKs/Wars/etc. Chillblains keeps em off healers and gives your healer room to pump out heals, as well as amazing burst for the DK. begin the fight with a HC and fake like you're going to setup a burst on a target but don't. Force trinkets, go frost presence and build RP for a FS spam when HC is up again for the real burst when their trinkets are cooled down.

Healer/unholy is more popular and more dependable as far as wins go. Unholy has great utility with a healer and a simple strat. Build RP, Pop Garg, stun, and spam SS then EMP to blow off 2 more SS's.

Double DPS comps are a lot harder this season and would take practice to really perform well with it. But around 1900-2100 you're going to run into a lot of cookie cutters that can't get high rating and sit there using the balance to win.

Good luck!!

[Catilyn]

Once again, I've changed specs.
Still Blood, but a different variation - specifically for Arenas.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVrVh0IcbRfostMxZfMMh:IGzVM0

It's doing well thus far and I now have my Furious Neck. (Yay!)

[Raziel]

I really think Death Grip needs to give an immunity timer to Death Grip for a full 30 seconds. Being chain-pulled by 4-5 death knights is absolutely ridiculous. There's not even .. whaddya call 'em when you gain a huge resistance to an ability used again?

Not even to their freeze ability, which can just be immediately replaced.

[Yatokth]

I really think Death Grip needs to give an immunity timer to Death Grip for a full 30 seconds. Being chain-pulled by 4-5 death knights is absolutely ridiculous. There's not even .. whaddya call 'em when you gain a huge resistance to an ability used again?

Not even to their freeze ability, which can just be immediately replaced.

Diminishing Returns.

And DG chaining is really not a big deal, except maybe in 5v5 and lolBGs.

If I honestly got DG'd 5 times I'd lawl.

[Okhu]

I got DGed like 5 times once. Course it was when I was killing the flag holder... which makes is slightly more obnoxious then when I'm running around.

[Sörröw]

They do need (minimal) a 5-10 second DG immunity so that the DK that pulls you can atleast get a hit or two on you before you're pulled by idiot DK #56 that wants to take the KB.

Not saying that it's horrible.. but for organization purposes.. pulling 1 person 5 times does absolutely nothing 99% of the time. Twice, maybe I can understand that when it gets you deeper in the enemy territory.. but 3-5 times (and I've seen it to) is just stupid on the other DK's part and shouldn't be done. DG in PvP is about timing or closing gaps.. not just throwing it out there just to do it.

[Advurb]

They do need (minimal) a 5-10 second DG immunity so that the DK that pulls you can atleast get a hit or two on you before you're pulled by idiot DK #56 that wants to take the KB.

Not saying that it's horrible.. but for organization purposes.. pulling 1 person 5 times does absolutely nothing 99% of the time. Twice, maybe I can understand that when it gets you deeper in the enemy territory.. but 3-5 times (and I've seen it to) is just stupid on the other DK's part and shouldn't be done. DG in PvP is about timing or closing gaps.. not just throwing it out there just to do it.

They don't balance the game around battlegrounds, and for good reason. And I've used DG chains in world PvP to get guard humpers out of their hidey holes.
In arena, even in 5s, it's not going to matter.

[Yatokth]

They don't balance the game around battlegrounds, and for good reason. And I've used DG chains in world PvP to get guard humpers out of their hidey holes.
In arena, even in 5s, it's not going to matter.

Honestly Chains of Ice is what needs a nerf.

Frickin' stupid shit.

[Agnarr]

And look at it this way, if you're in a battleground (like AV) and get chain pulled...even though you're one annoyed hordie, there are about 20 annoyed alliance because you just got pulled out of range of them by idiots on their own side.

[Skaadvik]

And look at it this way, if you're in a battleground (like AV) and get chain pulled...even though you're one annoyed hordie, there are about 20 annoyed alliance because you just got pulled out of range of them by idiots on their own side.

that's what I was gonna say. then you said it.

[Vyn]

Hummm...I have a dk on another server that I want to dual wield on in pvp. Is there a good spec for it, or should I just wait and stay with an unholy thing?

[Yatokth]

Hummm...I have a dk on another server that I want to dual wield on in pvp. Is there a good spec for it, or should I just wait and stay with an unholy thing?

Dual Wield is near obsolete at the moment, but next patch with the new talent, Threat of Thassarian, which makes your instant strikes also hit with your offhand, dual wield FROST spec looks like it might be a force.

[Vyn]

Hot damn. That would rock.

[Catilyn]

Just remember, you'll be forced into the Frost spec if you want to be a Duel-Wielder.

[Swerto]

Dual wield frost?


I could do that.



Only reason I haven't dual wielded yet is because I -hate- unholy.

[Agnarr]

I may do that on my DK. I love unholy's toys, but I've always wanted my death knight to be more of a frosty one. To symbolize the coldness in his heart!
/emo

[Okhu]

I thought you wanted him to be more frost because he was a cool guy that doesn't afraid of anything.

DO HO HO I CRACK MYSELF UP SUMTIEMS

[Agnarr]

I thought you wanted him to be more frost because he was a cool guy that doesn't afraid of anything.

DO HO HO I CRACK MYSELF UP SUMTIEMS

But eh doesn't afraid of anything!