Tanking as a Death Knight

[Kirick]

So, I'm getting close to 80 (tonight, with any luck) and I'm starting to look at that whole "dual spec" thing. I've been DPS since 55, because I wanted to ever level, but now that I'm staring endgame in the face, I've started playing with alternative specs so that I might be worth half a hump in a raid.

Problem is, I don't understand how DKs tank. When I look at prot specs for pallies and warriors, or at feral for droods, I can intuit (more or less) what talents make them better at tanking. "This talent increases your dodge chance," or "this talent increases your threat." When I look at a DK tree, I don't see anything (or much of anything) that leaps out as a "tanking" spec. I'm told it's mostly Frost, which makes sense, but aside from that, I just can't fathom how it's done.

Does anyone have advice? I looked through the WoW Discussions, but couldn't find much of anything regarding DK tanking.

[Kained]

avoidence is your friend, Dodge/parry kind of like a druid ( Without the parry...)


Stack a crap ton of stam and those stats with def and you should be set as for rotation I haven't played my DK since Wrath Beta but as frost It was icy touch, pestilence howling blast blood boil refresh

[Kirick]

I've got the rotation down, and I grasp the basic concept of avoidance... since I don't have block, get dodge and parry, get defense and stamina on armor, etc. etc. I understand the rotation and the itemization. I just don't understand what talents to get.

[Kained]

I've got the rotation down, and I grasp the basic concept of avoidance... since I don't have block, get dodge and parry, get defense and stamina on armor, etc. etc. I understand the rotation and the itemization. I just don't understand what talents to get.


thier pretty self explanitory, I know in the blood tree you get a parry increase when your blood runes are all depleted and theres one for dodge in the unholy ect. just gotta read and match or check out a website

[Kirick]

thier pretty self explanitory, I know in the blood tree you get a parry increase when your blood runes are all depleted and theres one for dodge in the unholy ect. just gotta read and match or check out a website


They're not particularly self-explanatory, which is why I'm coming here, to check out a website.

[Draekon]

Blood (9 points)

5/5 Blade Barrier
2/5 Bladed Armor
2/2 Two-Handed Weapon Specialization

Frost (54 points)

3/3 Improved Icy Touch
5/5 Toughness
5/5 Black Ice
5/5 Icy Talons
3/3 Annihilation
5/5 Killing Machine
3/3 Frigid Dreadplate
3/3 Glacier Rot
1/1 Deathchill
3/3 Rime
2/2 Improved Frost Presence
5/5 Blood of the North
1/1 Unbreakable Armor
1/1 Frost Strike
3/3 Guile of Gorefiend
5/5 Tundra Stalker
1/1 Howling Blast

Unholy (8 points)

5/5 Anticipation
3/3 Morbidity

Glyphs: Icy Touch, Obliterate, Death and Decay Major
Horn of Winter, Pestilence, Raise Dead Minor


This is what I use on my DK for tanking and it works great.

[Grayslin]

There are only a few mitigation talents in each tree as a DK. Most of your mitigation is going to come from frost presence and baseline CD's. What you'll be talenting for primarily is threat gen.

You can really tank in any of the trees, though some will be easier than others. (I prefer unholy myself, for its superior aoe threat. However its single target threat gen is the weakest of the three.) The main things to remember are to pick up the tier one mitigation/avoidance abilities in each of the three trees, and then your tree's deeper mitigation talent(s). (Vampiric Blood for blood, Unbreakable Armor for frost, Bone Shield for unholy)

That's the basic stuff...

If you want in-depth discussion, I recommend going here: http://elitistjerks.com/f72/

Or this thread specifically (The other one is a bit outdated): http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t44638-sunos_fireside_chat_dk_endgame_tanking_updated/

[Kirick]

Thanks, Draek! That's about exactly what I was looking for.

Syl: Thank you! I couldn't figure out how DK talents provided avoidance, and now I know... they don't! This (and those links) gave me the information I need to start speccing and practicing.

Sounds like Unholy tanking is pretty close to Unholy AoE grinding. Except with a healer.

[Draekon]

Thanks, Draek! That's about exactly what I was looking for.

Syl: Thank you! I couldn't figure out how DK talents provided avoidance, and now I know... they don't! This (and those links) gave me the information I need to start speccing and practicing.

Sounds like Unholy tanking is pretty close to Unholy AoE grinding. Except with a healer.

The stuff I read about DK tanking is that everything but Frost is very gear reliant and not very good (Including Dual Wield Frost tanking) unless you have the gear for it. The spec I just gave you is the generally accepted 'starter' spec and works the best for DKs that aren't epicced.

[Grayslin]

Meh... I tanked as unholy even when my gear was crap. If he's used to playing as unholy, it will be a far more comfortable spec for him to tank in, I would venture.

That said, frost does have a few more mitigation talents than the other two trees which can help balance things out if you're having a hard time.

[Kirick]

Right now, my gear is unmitigated crap, because I'm all DPS. I'd need to pick up some starter gear before I go tank crazy anyway. Just thought I'd start looking at various specs.

Thank you all!

[Draekon]

Get Revered with Wyrmrest, Argent Crusade, and Hodir fast. Thats your head/shoulder enchant and they have the best pre-naxx boots, cloak and chest.

[Grayslin]

I still have those friggin boots... Can't replace 'em for the life of me.

[Draekon]

I still have those friggin boots... Can't replace 'em for the life of me.

I got the ones that drop off the last boss in OK. They're better if you have enough def to trade out for more dodge.

[Draekon]

Pre-Heroic: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=28521.0

Pre-Naxx: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/40966-polar-s-easy-pre-naxx-tank-gear-list.html

I remembered I had this saved for my DK while I collected his gear. I figured this would help you also, Kirick.

[Grayslin]

I got the ones that drop off the last boss in OK. They're better if you have enough def to trade out for more dodge.
Wait.. I think it's those actually. Either way, mah boots are still blue.

Whenever I *tank* naxx, no tank gear drops. It only drops if I'm DPS for the run. :(

[Naheal]

Stack a crap ton of stam and those stats with def and you should be set as for rotation I haven't played my DK since Wrath Beta but as frost It was icy touch, pestilence howling blast blood boil refresh

No. We're not druids.

Edit: To clarify, if you have a choice in the matter, go with avoidance over straight stam. Stacking stam works with Blood (as most of the self heals are based off of your own hp), but you REALLY want to stack your other avoidance stats over stam. Remember that we don't have a shield block/holy shield ability.

[Sanrin]

I read quickly in here someone said to stack stamina, but tbh you're better off stacking some more avoidanc-y things such as dodge gems, possibly parry, then anything else. Naheal said it right, avoidance > stamina. We're not a damage sponge of any sort. You'll find its a lot easier to keep yourself alive when you're not taking hits at all, rather then taking hits constantly but having a lot of health.


Also dodge>parry. There is a DR on parry, no such thing exists on dodge to my current understanding. I could be incorrect.

[Kaliera]

I read quickly in here someone said to stack stamina, but tbh you're better off stacking some more avoidanc-y things such as dodge gems, possibly parry, then anything else. Naheal said it right, avoidance > stamina. We're not a damage sponge of any sort. You'll find its a lot easier to keep yourself alive when you're not taking hits at all, rather then taking hits constantly but having a lot of health.


Also dodge>parry. There is a DR on parry, no such thing exists on dodge to my current understanding. I could be incorrect.

This is half right on both accounts. You still want to stack a good amount of stamina, as if you don't have the health pool to survive an unlucky back-to back (or worse, one-shot), then all the avoidance in the world won't help you. A healthy mix tends to be the best route.

As far as dodge and parry, there are DRs on both, but the DRs on parry are far more harsh.

[Naheal]

This is half right on both accounts. You still want to stack a good amount of stamina, as if you don't have the health pool to survive an unlucky back-to back (or worse, one-shot), then all the avoidance in the world won't help you. A healthy mix tends to be the best route.

As far as dodge and parry, there are DRs on both, but the DRs on parry are far more harsh.

This is correct for the most part, exept where you start looking at the DRs on parry and dodge.

The main difference between dodge and parry is that dodge rating converts to percent much better then parry rating does. I may be incorrect in my assessment, but, once you look into it, the DRs end up being the same, but the actual Rating:Percent ratio is where you get boned.

[Lailinarel]

This is correct for the most part, exept where you start looking at the DRs on parry and dodge.

The main difference between dodge and parry is that dodge rating converts to percent much better then parry rating does. I may be incorrect in my assessment, but, once you look into it, the DRs end up being the same, but the actual Rating:Percent ratio is where you get boned.

This is correct. Parry converts far worse than dodge, though that is because after you parry an attack your next swing comes like 40% faster or something like that. Now if you're saying lols dps boost, I'm gonna facepalm. Faster melee swings = faster rune strikes = higher threat per second. Just like it comes to faster heroic strikes on a warrior. (Assuming you've got the rage or RP to spam it.)

[Moknim]

This is half right on both accounts. You still want to stack a good amount of stamina, as if you don't have the health pool to survive an unlucky back-to back (or worse, one-shot), then all the avoidance in the world won't help you. A healthy mix tends to be the best route.

As far as dodge and parry, there are DRs on both, but the DRs on parry are far more harsh.

In addition - since you will be tanking heroics, you want more stam. Most healers will look at your health pool and determine whether they are going to put up with healing you (also, the stigma against DKs is still around in my experience).

[Naheal]

This is correct. Parry converts far worse than dodge, though that is because after you parry an attack your next swing comes like 40% faster or something like that. Now if you're saying lols dps boost, I'm gonna facepalm. Faster melee swings = faster rune strikes = higher threat per second. Just like it comes to faster heroic strikes on a warrior. (Assuming you've got the rage or RP to spam it.)

Also, on top of this, Rune Strike is an attack that cannot be dodged/blocked/parried. In other words, higher parry = more rune strikes = less boss parries = less often a boss gets that parry haste.

[Sanrin]

Stacking stamina isnt a good idea just to appeal to a pug really, most people that play this game only have a slight amount of a clue how any other class in this game works. Catering to their halfwit knowledge isn't the best first step to take. A healthy mix, would be best, leaning more toward avoidance then anything else. Take this as you will however, since my DK has all three of his JC gems as the stamina version, to allot me more regular blue gems as the avoidancy ones.

[Grayslin]

Catering to their halfwit knowledge isn't the best first step to take.This is the best-worded advice ever.

[Yehvon]

Stacking stamina isnt a good idea just to appeal to a pug really, most people that play this game only have a slight amount of a clue how any other class in this game works. Catering to their halfwit knowledge isn't the best first step to take. A healthy mix, would be best, leaning more toward avoidance then anything else. Take this as you will however, since my DK has all three of his JC gems as the stamina version, to allot me more regular blue gems as the avoidancy ones.

qft.

I myself had my dk stacked up on stam gems so I could get above 25k hp but once i got 3 pieces of t7 I switched my gems around once i hit 28k unbuffed.

I lost 700+ hp but I gained 1%+ dodge and a lil parry putting on some purple and orange gems instead of +24stam only.

now i have 28% dodge, 15% parry and 27k hp :D

[Kirick]

/cast Resurrection!

So, I'm starting to get armored, and I'm doing pretty well. I'm mostly done up in pre-Naxx stuff, the Tempered Saronite with some bits and bobs. I've got a Titansteel Destroyer, and I need a couple drops from bosses, so I know where to go from here.

My problem is, I've already done the quest for the tanking shoulders (the Pauldrons of Reconnaissance) and I either didn't pick them or I disenchanted them. Any suggestions as to good tanking shoulders that don't require that HoS quest?

[Grayslin]

I think I was still using the tempered saronite ones until I got the ones off patchwerk in naxx. (Which I'm still using - they're actually a bit better than the tier 7.0 piece overall, unless you need the set bonus.)

This thread is pretty much exactly for you: http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t46054-pre_raid_dk_tank_gear/

Edit: Actually I think I used Iron Dwarf Smith Pauldrons (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37814) for awhile before I got the naxx ones.

[Draekon]

/cast Resurrection!

So, I'm starting to get armored, and I'm doing pretty well. I'm mostly done up in pre-Naxx stuff, the Tempered Saronite with some bits and bobs. I've got a Titansteel Destroyer, and I need a couple drops from bosses, so I know where to go from here.

My problem is, I've already done the quest for the tanking shoulders (the Pauldrons of Reconnaissance) and I either didn't pick them or I disenchanted them. Any suggestions as to good tanking shoulders that don't require that HoS quest?

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37115

[Kirick]

Thank you!

[Draekon]

You could be able to get the CSP ones off of the AH.

Also, I posted a pre-naxx gear guide for you earlier in the thread >:P

[Kirick]

Also, I posted a pre-naxx gear guide for you earlier in the thread >:P

I saw that... I have it printed out, too! I just didn't realize it wasn't filled with Heroic loot. Thank you!

[Immermnemion]

DK tanks should have been aborted - partial-birth, if possible.



Get defense capped.
Get health.
Avoidance will come with gear.
X Dodge > X Parry in most cases.
Learn to use your cooldowns well.
Victory.

[Grayslin]

Learn to use your cooldowns well.
This is the one I think I'm still having the most trouble with. I have a tendency to blow IBF any time I drop below 5-10% (unless I know something like a soft enrage or something else requiring defensive CD's is coming up), and I don't think that's really the right way to do it.

Anyone have any tips? Or is it more of an intuitive thing you just have to get a feel for. (Which I'm kind of starting to notice happening.)

[Rasta]

Cooldowns are there to be used as you see fit, unless the fight you're on has a mechanic that requires you to time your cooldowns to avoid large blows, such as Sarth + 3 drakes and Steelbreaker. Otherwise, get a feel for yourself when is the best time to use them. Me, I tend to pop one or two when I get below half health several times in a row, or when the raid starts to get overwhelmed with something or another or takes a large amount of raid damage.

I use blood tanking, btw.

[Thelsuo]

This is a spec i've used for new content, as well as regular tanking. Survivability is amazing. It's threat gen is not as great as the regular tanking builds, so try it once you get a greater weapon/experience, but the assistance you give your healers in a raid environment to aid the learning curve is great. With full buffs, Runetap heals for almost 10k, and deathstrike for almost 7k. So during crux moments of a new encounter it can really make a difference.

Once you get some greater experience/gear. I'd say give it a shot. I'm currently only in 4/5 25 man Naxx gear. With full Ulduar gear, it would be even better. As I said most tanks would not favor this build from loss of threat gen, but never had an issue thus far.

Major runes-

Rune Tap
Scourge Strike
Bone Shield

http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=6&tal=0055021403000300000000000000005000000000000000 0000000000235232030000015203050003102100

[Grayslin]

Yea, not much threat gen there at all. I was having enough threat annoyances with a somewhat standard unholy build. Just tried switching to frost as of yesterday and I'm pretty impressed so far with the threat gen. Frost isn't my favorite tree, but it does seem well-suited for tanking. (Not that the others don't, I still love me some unholy, but unholy tanking's gonna suck a lot more with the unholy blight change in 3.2) It loses a little in the way of Unholy's AoE threat, but Howling blast makes up for it well enough that I haven't seen much of an increase in AE tanking difficulty.

Edit: Moved this over to the raiding section, fits better here and is less likely to drop off the front page as quickly for folks who could use the advice contained herein.

[Immermnemion]

As far as cooldowns, I have a very conservative stance. Mine are generally never blown unless I know there is a mechanic in a fight that essentially requires them.

If I drop to low health in a situation not like above, that is an issue that is NOT my responsibility as I shouldn't see it occurring. In new groups, this is generally wipey, but with people who know me, they know they'd better get their rears in gear or their corpses will be on the floor. Doing otherwise regularly is giving people a crutch, I feel - makes them lazy.

Occasionally, I'll pop them if I see a healer/OT die. It depends on my mood really. If I'm in a hurry, I'll do it to complete the encounter. If I feel the performance is unacceptable, .... well, they'd better hope I get a lucky string of avoidance.

[Grayslin]

As far as cooldowns, I have a very conservative stance. Mine are generally never blown unless I know there is a mechanic in a fight that essentially requires them.

If I drop to low health in a situation not like above, that is an issue that is NOT my responsibility as I shouldn't see it occurring. In new groups, this is generally wipey, but with people who know me, they know they'd better get their rears in gear or their corpses will be on the floor. Doing otherwise regularly is giving people a crutch, I feel - makes them lazy.

Occasionally, I'll pop them if I see a healer/OT die. It depends on my mood really. If I'm in a hurry, I'll do it to complete the encounter. If I feel the performance is unacceptable, .... well, they'd better hope I get a lucky string of avoidance.
I dont subscribe to that school of thought, myself. The mentality of "do your job right or I'm wiping us" doesn't seem very conducive to group cooperation in a raiding environment. I agree everyone should learn their class and not rely on the tank's CD's as a crutch for their mistakes, but purposely not using them to make a point seems like it would (after a few wipes) create more unnecessary tension than it would solve problems.

Everybody screws up from time to time. That's part of the reason why you have the cooldowns, to compensate for unexpected situations or unforseen problems.

[Immermnemion]

Your stance would be the more liberal one - I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I will denote it as on the opposite end of the spectrum.

While I'm liberal in quite a few cases, this is not one of them. In the faceroll that was Naxxramas, the ONLY two scenarios during standard boss kills which cooldowns were more or less necessary were 1. Patchwerk's enrage and 2. Maxxeana's (sp) enrage. You could make an argument for Widow during her achievement, but because that is an OPTIONAL path, I contest it as unnecessary. Were you to do it though, the cooldowns are a good idea.

Come Ulduar, I've found the more demanding content poses more a crucible to people's skills. While the consensus of my guild is my tanking passes with flying colors, we have some problems with spatial awareness and healing judgement. Though we have some good healers, a few of ours need a serious boot camp, it's been discovered. For example, taking 20k+ swings every few seconds are not something flash of light is going to cover, yet it is apparently (still) a favorite of a few of our holy paladins on such fights, and yes, I've healed for a good deal of raid time as a paladin, so I am aware of circumstance uses of the spell. This healing problem usually leads to wiping - even if I'm performing at my best.

The concern here is due to the lack of strong healing being needed during Naxxramas, there wasn't much opportunity to appraise the healing potential. The moment XT comes around though, it will be painfully clear what abilities lie in that area.

There is nothing inherently wrong with using cooldowns to compensate for this lack. However, doing so consistently may cause others to rely on your use of them instead of realizing the use shouldn't be necessary (except in notable cases, like Mimiron's plasma blasts, etc.). Though you may be doing a great job, people will come to expect you to cover for them - your excellence becomes a crutch they rely on. They won't learn to stand on their own feet, or at least they will do so slower.


As an interjection, though I've referred to healing issues as it's been the most common (for me), other problems may well take their place. For example, forcing a tank to blow cooldowns on the trash leading to Emelon (sp) in VoA because they are not dying fast enough is a (very) bad omen for the battle to come.


It's not often I do the whole "This is unnacceptable, wipe it" thing. In general, that only happens if there are a multitude of problems with the fight and nothing to gain from prolonging the battle. However, if I don't receive a directed heal for 16 seconds when it's been needed (and this has happened before), I'm not quite feeling bubble+trinket is the best way to go. Yes, you may be fortunate to down the boss. Your healers may dust off their hands after the death and feel they did a great job though - even if they are told otherwise. The most effective way to learn not to touch a hot stove is to touch it, after all.


Ideally - and hopefully - you have raiders who learn from their mistakes and actively try to better themselves. You posting and reading in such a thread proves you're one of this type. If everyone was always aware and trying their best to perform and improve, yes, I'd always be popping cooldowns and such - and I do in scenarios when people are giving it their all, their effort yielding a decent result. In unfortunate scenarious like disconnects, untimely deaths and the likes, if victory is salvagable, I'll probably try to give it a go. However, my raids generally don't contain 25 people of stellar calibur - though they do contain a solid majority of such individuals - so I sometimes choose to be the stove and let them learn the effective, albeit hard way.

[Sörröw]

I might point this out when it comes to Dodge vs. Parry:

Dodge Rating: The amount of dodge rating required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply.

Since it's been brought up that dodge is indeed per point value better than Parry, you'll be sad to know that 3.2 is changing it to be equal.

I believe the Death Knight only general ability (Forceful Deflection?) is the only skill in the game that takes from a players Str. and Adds to their Parry. So, in the case of stacking anything.. if it's possible to be capped on parry rating/%'s then definitely get dodge (it seems to be on more pieces anyway).. but I would strongly suggest getting strength or a mix of strength and stam (stam is always good but it depends on how much str. converts into parry).

and if there's one thing to monitor 24/7 while tanking is keeping your horn of winter up. Losing Horn of winter at any point in a fight means a drop of dodge/crit/damage for not just yourself but the whole raid.

Generally, it's not an issue but I've played with a myriad of DK's (being a DK myself I can monitor it pretty well) where players don't even know they have the spell :P

Not to mention after blowing through some runic power and needing just the tiny bit for say.. mind freeze.. you can blow the horn and get RP too.

This is a buff I see run off all too often that really shouldn't.. ever.. even with just 1 DK or a half a DK :P

[Grayslin]

~stuff~
Sorry, took me a bit to get back to this, been on vacation from work, which dillutes my forum trolling powers.

I think you and I are on the same page really, just different places on it.

I'd wager that the difference in perception comes from the fact that you likely tank a lot more 25 man content than I do. Most of my raiding is confined to 10 man where I'm raiding with the same group of people weekly. In those scenarios, as you mentioned, you're working with the same competent people who know how to take direction and advice and improve their own performance, regardless of how the encounter goes. In those situations, using cooldowns to compensate for errors and the like seems natural to me.

I know our group has had our share of kills where we pretty much - as a group - agreed "Wow, that was messy, but we got through it. Let's not let that happen that way next time."

[Swerto]

I am trying this (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055000000000000000000000000305050013 5203310130125101351005200000000000000000000000000&glyph=241418060504&version=9767) out for the next while. Input?

I tried Unholy tanking for a bit (I copied Cessily's spec and changed it slightly to not get gargoylel and grab on a pale horse instead) didn't like it too much.

I miss blood tanking and may go back to that in the future, but right now frost is working just fine.

[Grayslin]

It seems fairly solid, there's a few things you could do.

Frost strike and rune strike are going to be generating the majority of your threat. Because of this, Scent of Blood is a fantastic talent for frost tanking, I'd pick that up if at all possible. The frost strike glyph can help a good bit with this as well, since it reduces the RP cost. I'd suggest replacing either the unbreakable armor or oblit glyph with it, whichever makes you more comfortable.

Some other thoughts:
- point-wise, you'll get more damage/threat benefit from two handed weapon spec than 2 points of bladed armor
- blood tap minor glyph is good for when you need an emergency UA and your unholy runes are on CD
- I usually take acclimation, since it can be a handy talent for some boss fights. Though it isn't totally necessary; the cookie cutter frost tanking spec doesn't use it.
- While endless winter is mostly a pvp talent, the free mind freezes can be handy for tanking bosses like KT or Stormcaller Brunwhatshisname on Iron Council.

This (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0050320000000000000000000000305050003 5223300030125131351005000000000000000000000000000&glyph=131418060501&version=9767) is what I'm using. It's pretty similar, just with a bit more threat gen oomph.

[Swerto]

Don't want to take the points out of epidemic, my reasoning behind it is I have to plague strike less often, allowing me to just spam obliterate and howling blast then double blood strike.

I could drop deathchill and merciless combat, I really had no reasoning for grabbing them before other than 'where the hell do I put these?"

I -don't- really want to drop lichborne, but I am seeing how it is no longer -that- useful for tanking (considering they took off the damage reduction effect it used to have)

I'll give your spec a minor try (the difference being I will keep epidemic and not grab endless winter considering RP is never a problem for me and if I need an instant brain freeze I can use my arcane torrent + horn of winter to get it if I don't have the RP handy)

[Swerto]

Oh questions!



Next patch when DW frost becomes viable, is it going to be viable for tanking?


As you can recall ever since the start I've been asking questions on DW tanking.

[Grayslin]

It won't fix the problem with DW tanking. DW tanking will likely never be viable unless blizz changes the way parry mechanics work.

When a boss/mob parries your attack, it reduces/resets his swing timer. Two weapons means you're hitting the boss more often, thus increasing his chances to parry you. So the more attacks you throw at him, the more he's hitting you, and the more damage you're taking, which the healers will be very annoyed about. Basically, as long as dual-wielding doesn't provide a considerable advantage in threat or defense, the extra incoming damage it invites is just unnecessary.

I can understand not wanting to lose epidemic. One thing you might want to keep in mind, though, is that with the HB glyph, you're infecting all nearby mobs with frost fever every time you HB already. A lot of frost tanks will use this to completely forgo blood plague at all on aoe pulls since most of your aoe damage isn't affected by its presence as long as ff is up. On single target fights, you'd have to plague strike more often, yeah, but it's a small tradeoff on having those points free to go elsewhere.

It's still a personal choice though, if you really like epidemic, go for it.

And yeah, merciless combat is a good one to drop if you're going to drop something. By the time a boss reaches 35% you should be way ahead on threat anyway, so the talent won't give you a lot of return on your investment threat-wise.

[Agnarr]

I'll be damned if I can find it now, as the search feature isn't helping me out (or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place, but I thought I remembered this being tank and DK related, hence my posting the following here), but I saw someone post somewhere that resilience is useless in PVE.


Can I combine defense and resilience to become uncrittable?
Yep. 82 Resilience = 123 Defense Rating = 25 Defense Skill = 1% less chance of being crit. You want 5.6% reduction for a boss, so 460 Resilience = 689 Defense Rating = 140 Defense Skill = 5.6% less chance of being crit. Mix and match as needed.

[Swerto]

Okay then, thank you. I guess my DPS spec will be DW frost, and my tank spec will be 2h frost.

[Agnarr]

So I worked out a potential 2H frost tank build, then looked at some of the others posted, and realized we all pretty much have the same idea (which makes sense, really).

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EMZMxxzAbI0czisst0x:TkwMmV

Notes:
No Improved Icy Touch: with the Howling Blast glyph I'll get Frost Fever that way, and hopefully not have to even use Icy Touch.
Runic Power Mastery + Glyph of Frost Strike: Frost Strike! Frost Strike! Hopefully more bang (and aggro) for the buck
Glyph of Pestilence: It was either that or Blood Tap, but I figured this would be used more
Acclimation: Looks like it could be useful, but I don't know how useful it actually is...

Things I'd like to have but can't (as the build stands): Glyph of Death and Decay, Glyph of Disease, Epidemic talent, Dark Conviction talent

Thoughts on the build and my reasoning for certain aspects of it?

[Grayslin]

Thoughts on the build and my reasoning for certain aspects of it?
Okay. *cracks knuckles*


No Improved Icy Touch: with the Howling Blast glyph I'll get Frost Fever that way, and hopefully not have to even use Icy Touch.True for aoe pulls, but on single target fights, HB is mostly a waste of FU runes. You'll probably be using icy touch / plague strike on bosses. So in those cases it will be handy. Also, the additional attack speed reduction it grants your frost fever shouldn't be discounted. Reducing incoming damage = güd.

Runic Power Mastery + Glyph of Frost Strike: Frost Strike! Frost Strike! Hopefully more bang (and aggro) for the buckIf you want to frost strike a lot, have a serious look at scent of blood over in the blood tree. It makes taking damage, blocking and parrying generate RP (indirectly, but still...). As a tank, it will be a massive RP source for you.

Also, with your two main threat gen abilities (rune strike, frost strike) both being fueled by runic power, chances are you won't ever max out on RP, so the runic power mastery might be an unnecessary investment.

Glyph of Pestilence: It was either that or Blood Tap, but I figured this would be used moreWhy not both? The horn of winter glyph, while convenient, isn't totally necessary. Since it generates runic power, it doesn't hurt to pop it every time it comes off cooldown.

Acclimation: Looks like it could be useful, but I don't know how useful it actually is...You can live without it, but it's nice to have vs any boss that deals magic damage. As I mentioned before, the standard cookie cutter frost tank build doesn't take it (Though I do)

Things I'd like to have but can't (as the build stands): Glyph of Death and Decay, Glyph of Disease, Epidemic talent, Dark Conviction talent.You can do without most of those.
- Howling Blast can more than compensate for the reduced D&D damage threat-wise.
- Glyph of disease is meh, you can use HB to refresh FF on aoe pulls and on single target it's not a huge loss to refresh with IT/PS.
- See my response to swerto above for thoughts on epidemic
- Dark conviction would be more useful if your base crit chance in tank gear wasn't crap anyway.

Random thoughts on other parts of the build:
Bladed armor is never a bad choice for a tank. I passed it up in favor of acclimation and endless winter, but it was a tough decision.
Lichborne can be useful on a few fights, but it's situational at best. It's more of a pvp talent.

[Agnarr]

Just curious, anyone know of a site that has the test/3.2 DK talents up for perusal? After doing all this work getting specs that look both effective and personally enjoyable, it would suck to have to start all over again and not remembering what you had...

[Grayslin]

I think mmochampion's regular talent calculator is updated for 3.2

Edit: Yeah, it is: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=&version=10192

[Grayslin]

Speaking of which... looking at something like this (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0050320000000000000000000000305050003 52233000300203111351005032000000000000000000000000 0&glyph=131424010506&version=10192) for a 3.2 frost tanking build. The reduced point cost of some frost talents let me grab a faster CD on D&D (Handy for tanking thorim's arena) and DG (Though I may end up putting the DG points back into acclimation)

It's also tempting to slide those 5 points over into blood for bladed armor instead. *sigh* Decisions, decisions.

Thoughts?

[Agnarr]

Looking at the updated talents, the only thing that will affect my planned tank build is the Blood of the North being dropped to 3, so I have two points to burn higher up in the tree. Not all that useful, really.
Looking at this (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055020000000000000000000000305150003 52033100301203131351005000000000000000000000000000 0&glyph=141324010605&version=10192).

[Reignier]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0050320000000000000000000000305050003 52033002301203131351005002000000000000000000000000 0&glyph=131418050406&version=10192

Thinking this for 3.2

[Grayslin]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0050320000000000000000000000305050003 52033002301203131351005002000000000000000000000000 0&glyph=131418050406&version=10192

Thinking this for 3.2
I like. But then again, it's identical to one of the builds I'm considering, so I would... >.>

[Reignier]

I barely changed it from my current (this is Swerto)

[Draekon]

My current spec (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Moon+Guard&cn=Draekon&gn=Project+Mayhem) is great. Not that good for AoE tanking unless you have all your Frost/Unholy runes turned into Death Runes and you blood boil their faces off after pesting. Otherwise, keeping RS and DC as your RP dump (RS over DC if you have below 60 RP) gives me 7-9k TPS when raid buffed.

Rotation is basicly put up diseases, burn your blood runes, use death strike to get all death runes, and blow them on HS until your diseases start to wear off (Within 8 seconds or so.)

And you dump when nessicary, while Rune Striking (especially if you have the Sigil) whenever it pops.

Its nice survivability. Your DS with two diseases means 10% of your health each strike, and alot more if you have Vampiric Blood up. With the for piece bonus from T8 and VB up, you can mitigate 10% of the damage with AMS and get 30 seconds (with the glyph) off of Vamp Blood with 30%+ healing. I can tank General in 25 with those two running while he's enraged, and use my IBF on the next.

[Swerto]

Necrosis is a waste of points for any 2h spec imho.

Put it into spell deflection or even rune tap.

[Draekon]

Necrosis is a waste of points for any 2h spec imho.

Put it into spell deflection or even rune tap.

Its not a waste when you're doing 4-5k white crits on a boss in tank gear.

[Swerto]

With a two hander you hit once every ~3 seconds.

Spell deflection adds to your mitigation against spell damage (a common thing in many encounters)

Rune tap is a nice 'oh shit heal' if your healer gets CC'd by a boss or runs out of mana for some unforeseen reason.

Both of those benefits outweigh high DPS as a tank, you most likely will push more than enough threat without it.

[Draekon]

Eh, not really.

I don't have to worry much about my healers being CC'd, as the main fights I tank (Hodir, Thorim, Freya, General, and Phase 1/3 Mim) I have at least 2+ healers on me in 25 man.

I have enough survivability, I never have to use my death pact. Spell Deflection is worthless as my AMS is only a 45 second cool down and any sort of 'dangerous' magic ability doesn't hit me all that often (Frozen Blows and Plasma Blast) It'd be a waste of points in my opinion. I like the extra damage/TPS better.

[Swerto]

Eh, up to you.

I persoanlly enjoy frost tanking more than anything, and wish that they'd fix parry gibbing so I could dual wield tank.

[Catilyn]

I made a Blood Build (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0ErqIhccb0bssxhxZ0gh0z:GipVMc) (surprise, suprise...) for Tanking and havn't had any problems with it.

Personally, I wouldn't give up Spell Deflection for anything. A FLAT 45% Damage Reduction can go a long way.
After all, mitigation is mitigation, in the end.

Note that even if you only have one point in Scent of Blood, the actual effect can still stack up to 3 charges.
I took 2 as a precaution, but 3 is overdoing it, in my opinion.

[Grayslin]

With a two hander you hit once every ~3 seconds.

The parry mechanics actually work in your favor in this case, though; sometimes you will be swinging faster. That said, I don't take necrosis for tanking either, but it's pretty nice for a dps build. There are other things that are better, but most cookie cutter dps specs that dip into unholy will take at least a few points in necrosis.


Note that even if you only have one point in Scent of Blood, the actual effect can still stack up to 3 charges.
I took 2 as a precaution, but 3 is overdoing it, in my opinion.
Not if you're tanking as frost, which granted, you aren't. Between rune strike and frost strike causing a high majority of your threat, every little bit of runic power you can eke out is a boon.

[Draekon]

I was frost tanking for a while, but the TPS I used to get compared to what I get now as Frost spec is...Painful.

I used to put out the same TPS in my Frost spec as I do now in my Blood. It was too severely gimped IMO.

[Grayslin]

Try unholy... then frost tanking seems like a threat fountain.

I like frost because it provides a nice mix between single-target and aoe threat, allowing me to tank any fight decently.

[Broxigan]

Well. I seemed to have found the answer I was wanting from here.

I have been toying around with tanking specs on my level 71 DK. Yes, I know I am not maxed level and should worry more about leveling than tanking, but I have been looking for something that is great to play solo and good for tanking. The Frost tank specs make my solo sadded all over himself. It looks to be GREAT for instances, lack-luster outside of it.

Unholy has been fun, but I was never quite sure what went where when I was trying to figure out how the hell someone unholy tanks. [I will figure it out once I finally hit 80, I'm sure.]

And Blood, I just played with last night.

The build Caitlyn tossed up seems to be almost identical to what I was going for, give or take, and missing a few points as I am not max level. But I am curious, for leveling up through Northrend, what spec is preferred for tanking? I would love for someone to say Blood because soloing, I can handle it. Frost tank spec soloing made me weep so hard in the inside, it hurt. Unholy reminds me of a hunter/lock too much.

[Agnarr]

Frost tank spec soloing made me weep so hard in the inside, it hurt.

Why? My DK has both specs very similar, but the tank spec has like 10-15 points spent in non-dying skills whereas the dps spec can spend those in more funtimes. But they're really not -that- different. Admitedly unholy has more toys, but frost is pretty fun as well. And there's like 0 downtime even when taking on groups of 3-4 at a time.

[Broxigan]

I must have been doing something terribly wrong then with Frost. I don't know why I didn't care for it so much when I was doing fun things.

[Grayslin]

Unholy has been fun, but I was never quite sure what went where when I was trying to figure out how the hell someone unholy tanks.
They don't. Or at least not at high-end endgame anymore. Unholy's draw was its supreme AoE threat, which was hit pretty hard by the unholy blight change. The only things unholy offers a tank now, really, is Bone Shield, which isn't worth the severe gimping you get to your single target threat in the tree.


But I am curious, for leveling up through Northrend, what spec is preferred for tanking? I would love for someone to say Blood because soloing, I can handle it. Frost tank spec soloing made me weep so hard in the inside, it hurt. Unholy reminds me of a hunter/lock too much.Blood used to suck for tanking, but now it's one of the more popular. Its single target threat is very nice (though a tad bit reliant on sunder/EA) and it affords the highest effective HP a DK tank can get. Its multi-target threat is not so great, however, but it should be sufficient for 5 mans.

Frost is a more well-rounded tree, with more in the way of mitigation and avoidance in place of blood's high EHP, and more aoe threat generators (such as the convenience of howling blast for snap AoE aggro), while still maintaining sufficient single target threat.

So to answer your question, you should get on fine with blood if that's what you like. It's raid-viable (for boss tanking and smaller trash pulls, anyway) and great for soloing.

Frost is really nice too, but it's an acquired taste for some (It was for me, though once I got used to it, I fell in LOVE with the tree.)

Don't tank as unholy. It's doable, but not worth the pain and suffering. Unholy shines better as a PvP or DPS tree.

[Sejarki]

But I am curious, for leveling up through Northrend, what spec is preferred for tanking? I would love for someone to say Blood because soloing, I can handle it. Frost tank spec soloing made me weep so hard in the inside, it hurt. Unholy reminds me of a hunter/lock too much.

Personally while leveling I tanked as Frost because the snap aggro from Howling Blast is invaluable in 5 mans. If you can hold AoE threat fine though as Blood then feel free to stay Blood, whatever works for you and you find more fun. If you're using something like Catilyn's build with Corpse Explosion I imagine AoE aggro is less of an issue, but in the end game Blood is focused on single target tanking so most won't take it.

You have a lot more freedom to try different things out while leveling, so don't be afraid to.

[Broxigan]

Well, my end-game for tanks is usually 5-man heroics, so, raid builds, if they vary, aren't my thing usually. [Could always change, of course.]

Here is the build I was looking at for Blood tanking.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#3WIDONuq8DAy7B,dSYOe3,10505

Thoughts?

[Grayslin]

It will work for 5 mans, though there are some things I might consider moving around.

Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Dancing Rune Weapon generates threat for you, in which case you could probably spare the point for something else.

The same thing with the point in runic power mastery also. As a tank, you're going to be pouring a good amount of runic power into rune strikes and shouldn't be reaching the cap anyway, in which case increasing the cap is probably a wasted point.

You could probably also do without the corpse explosion. Yes, it's more Aoe threat, but it isn't usually going to be available to you when you need it the most, which is right at the start of a fight to build that initial threat. Even if you have the RP, chances are there isn't going to be a corpse to blow up until you've burned down one of the mobs, at which point you should have a solid grip on threat anyway.

There are also a few talents you didn't take that might be worth having a look at.
Scent of Blood - not as critical for a blood tank as a frost tank, but it's still an excellent source of RP for a tank, and more RP means more Rune Strikes which means more threat.
Improved Blood Presence - Lets you still get the healing effect of blood presence while in frost presence. Granted it's not a huge amount of healing, but sometimes a tiny amount of HP makes all the difference when that big hit lands.
Will of the Necropolis - Not as good as it used to be, but not an altogether horrible tanking talent. That said, you can probably live without it in 5 mans.

Edit: and if you're set on keeping corpse explosion, it might be worth considering replacing the horn of winter minor glyph with the corpse explosion one that increases its effect radius.

[Broxigan]

Will of the Necropolis is one of those talents that is VERY situational for a full three points. I had been bouncing around this one, but I wasn't sure.

As for Scent of Blood, I could move that point from runic mastery over to it.

Improved Blood Presence honestly seems like a waste...but I will play around tonight to see what the difference without it is.

As for Dancing Rune Weapon, as I said, I AM still leveling through and right now, I have it. I know it isn't for tanking and doesn't generate threat, but it helps out while soloing.

[Akuje]

Improved Blood Presence - Lets you still get the healing effect of blood presence while in frost presence. Granted it's not a huge amount of healing, but sometimes a tiny amount of HP makes all the difference when that big hit lands.



Or, you know when everyone dies, and you finish off Hodir standing with 1% and the last dps with half a % of life, having survived the last 5% or so of a boss with no healing.


When i was blood tanking, I took rune tap, down to improved, and even glyphed the damn thing. People would make fun of my spec. It was far from a norm. BUT, you could not pull off of me single target. Ever. Ever.

I remember a time on XT our other tank who was tanking XT got himself killed right off, and we lost one of the healers right at the bat. I was tanking XT, the pummelers, and we were down a healer. Using rune tap on cool down, etc etc. we killed the little robobrat, and I was second in healing done.

Never doubt self healing as a form as mitigation. What makes it fail to work is lower AoE threat for 5 mans. But what I would do in 5 mans would get one disease up, pestilence, then blood boil spam..

[Broxigan]

Never doubt self healing as a form as mitigation. What makes it fail to work is lower AoE threat for 5 mans. But what I would do in 5 mans would get one disease up, pestilence, then blood boil spam..

Death and Decay > Plague Strike and/or Icy Touch > Pestilence > Blood Boil

Mix in a nice healthy mix of Rune Strike

???

Profit, right?

[Akuje]

Death and Decay > Plague Strike and/or Icy Touch > Pestilence > Blood Boil

Mix in a nice healthy mix of Rune Strike

???

Profit, right?


That'd do it too, but I think you'll have to wait for a rune to refresh by the time you hit blood boil.

What did they do to the heart strike cleave?

[Grayslin]

Or, you know when everyone dies, and you finish off Hodir standing with 1% and the last dps with half a % of life, having survived the last 5% or so of a boss with no healing.
That was epic. The cause of it... not so much.

Completely unrelated side note, never let me raid lead if we have people that have never done the encounter before. I might forget to explain the fight first.


That'd do it too, but I think you'll have to wait for a rune to refresh by the time you hit blood boil.
Yep, it's why I love the Howling Blast glyph. No need for pestilence... almost ever. In my frost spec, I have it shoved way over to the far end of my bar; reachable, but not usually used.


What did they do to the heart strike cleave?Only hits the 2nd target for half damage now.

[Sejarki]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#3WIDONuq8DAy7B,dSYOe3,10505

Thoughts?

The importance of the snap aggro from Howling Blast isn't necessarily in holding the initial group (though it helps), it's more about having a way to quickly grab an additional group. From my own experience if your group somehow aggros another it can be very hard to grab threat on the new group with the tools you have as Blood (all the while having to maintain threat on the first group as well). It's really situations like those where Howling Blast shines spectacularly. Otherwise though as Blood I'd just say to be aware of the weaknesses there, and to mark targets.

I'm fairly sure taking Subversion over Sudden Doom would net you more threat and DPS. It has some good synergy with Might of Mograine and Blood Gorged. You're just not going to see as much damage out of Death Coil, and as a spell it's also prone to the spell hit cap which is 17% on level 83 bosses. Granted I'm not sure what it is for the level 82 bosses you'd see in Heroics, but it would be still considerably higher than the melee hit cap you may or may not even reach as a tank.

I do advise picking up Improved Icy Touch, since it directly reduces the damage you're taking by slowing down the mob's attack speed. I don't quite understand why you got Runic Power Mastery. Generally RP for Rune Strike shouldn't be too much of an issue to get, if you're having issues just hold back on Death Coils, though I don't know if that's why you took it.

I want to touch on Spell Deflection and say to keep in mind that its procs are fairly prone to RNG badness since it's tied to your parry rating (which I imagine is roughly hovering around 20%?) As well it's fairly situational itself (definitely more so than Will of the Necropolis) because it only procs off of rather uncommon direct damage spells. So all those plentiful and oft seen AoE and cone spells aren't affected by it, so if you're looking for points to drop that might be a place to start. Granted for the sake of full disclosure I must admit I take Spell Deflection myself knowing how suboptimal it is, I just didn't know what else to do with my final 3 points at the time and felt naked coming from Frost to Blood without a magic damage reducing talent.

Will of the Necropolis is generally seen as a core tanking cooldown for Blood DKs. Granted I can't say I've seen much information floating around showing specific numbers, generally the idea is that 15% off a 30k+ hit can be a significant amount, and given the right circumstances it can save your hide. But of course you said you're not planning to raid, and even then those big hits are about to get less common so we'll see where it goes. But it is a mitigation talent, so if you're fine on threat keep it in mind.

On a very minor side note I'm a fan of Hysteria since it can be either a nice boost of threat for me, or a nice damage boost for a raids top melee DPS as necessary.

Hope I don't come off too harsh or critical, just trying to sum up and share information I've gathered from around the internet (largely from lurking about Tankspot.)

[Grayslin]

I've been tanking for going on almost a year now, and have learned a great deal and gotten comfortable in the role. However, there are still a few areas where it feels like I'm weaker than I should be, namely in regard to threat gen.

My threat gen is a little low at the start of fights, (in some encounters, I'm screwed without a misdirect or ToT) but once I get going, I'm fine. Up until now, I've worked from the assumption that this is just the nature of DK tanking since most of my threat gen relies on avoidance procs and presence of diseases on the target. Is that, in fact, the case, or could I be doing something wrong?

Also, is rune strike supposed to be as big a component of my threat generation as it seems to be? If I'm the MT on a boss, I don't have much trouble holding aggro once I get going (either that, or I have extremely responsible DPS who watch their threat output... nah, that can't be it.), but I notice when off-tanking bosses where I'm not always the one being targeted that my threat gen drops way below that of our warrior tank and even some of the higher DPSers. My guess is that's a factor of rune strike (And to a lesser extent scent of blood) not proccing when I've got nothing to avoid, but I was curious if other DK tanks experience the same.

[Agnarr]

From my understanding, keeping threat-wise, rune strike is akin to warriors' heroic strike. Use it whenever possible. Plan to use it so you don't blow through all your runic power and wind up being empty with it otherwise being ready to go (don't dump all your r.p. just because you have it).

So yeah, if you're not having your attacks avoided, rune strike does you pretty much no good, meaning you need to beef up aggro. I wouldn't worry if you can't compare to a warrior tank when you're offtanking, so long as you're a comfortable #2 on the threat list. If that's failing, make sure you're using everything you can to cause aggro, whether its damage or not, especially death and decay. I'd wager that DK tanks would want that talented so it can be up as much as possible. It's the only other "this ability causes a large amount of threat" DK skill that I can think of (besides rune strike).

[Grayslin]

Well, that's my issue really, I'm *not* a comfortable 2nd on the threat meter when I'm the offtank.

The thing with rune strike is it actually procs when *I* avoid an attack, not when the mob does (an early change to the ability somewhere around 3.08 I think), so it's fantastic if I'm being swung at, but if I'm not it doesn't do so much since, you know, I can't activate it. It's a very big threat output, but only works if I'm the one being beat on.

As far as Death and Decay, I dunno. I spec into the ability that lowers its cooldown, but most cookie cutter frost builds do not, so I can't see that being my second major threat generator on single target fights. Especially since it's a BFU ability, and using it takes away a healthy chunk of resources and prevents me from generating a death rune via blood strike. I could be wrong on this, but I think the extra oblits and BS'es are worth more than the extra threat from D&D ticks.

[Sejarki]

Death and Decay should not be part of your rotation on single target fights, you're correct. Rune Strike should be your largest threat producer, so that's working as intended as well. And yes that means often when off-tanking (not getting hit) you won't be second on threat unless the DPS are going out of their way to keep you there.

Threat gen as Frost always felt like it took awhile to ramp up for me, and the friendly Warlock seemed to think so as well. As Blood I rarely have issues even and the start of the fight, and if I know I'm going to have problems Hysteria on myself as I pull tends to fix it.

[opalexian]

My DK tankytank just hit 80 last week so I've been grinding up and practicing tanking in heroics. so Im learning as I go. Maybe its just that I wasnt 80, but I greatly disliked frost. On Adoron's suggestion about blood being the way to go post-3.3 I went blood and have loved it ever since. Still learning to keep aggro, but this is a good test since most of the other people in heroics are twice as geared as I am and yank aggro all over. ^^;;;;

Too tired and I dont have the page here, but reading up on threat gen last night I am fairly sure that they did advocate DnD for aggro even on single targets 'cause we need everything we can get-it can be our snap aggro for non-frosties. I started reading a bit about causing RS to proc more frequently but didnt see a lot-how does that work exactly? It frustrates me because I use it when I can but it doesnt seem to be up nearly as much as Im reading it should be, and aiming to get the tanking relic really concerns me.

Just for kicks, here she is (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&n=Calianthe). Poke away. Just got the chest last night; the legs are next on the shopping list because I'll lose 31 def when I get them so I needed to the surplus of def to cover that and hopefully work in more stam gems. Yes Im aware my boots are ghetto but beggars can't be choosers. ; b How are my stats, and what raids could I possibly tank? I have a polearm as well-its a ag/stam one but has higher DPS and top end damage. Also read that that would be more appropriate for tanking. Thoughts? After Im done with my Koltira's what should I get next? My DPS set is ok, but I dont think it has enough of a GS to get me into much of anything.

[Grayslin]

My DK tankytank just hit 80 last week so I've been grinding up and practicing tanking in heroics. so Im learning as I go. Maybe its just that I wasnt 80, but I greatly disliked frost. On Adoron's suggestion about blood being the way to go post-3.3 I went blood and have loved it ever since. Still learning to keep aggro, but this is a good test since most of the other people in heroics are twice as geared as I am and yank aggro all over. ^^;;;;
Blood has fantastic single target threat, but comes in a bit behind in the aoe threat department, which could be why you're having problems. Since you're the only tank in a 5-man run, you will typically have more than one thing to tank at a time, which makes for a lot of unnecessary work for you as blood. Now, if you're more interested in raid boss tanking, I'd stick with blood so you can learn it inside and out.


Too tired and I dont have the page here, but reading up on threat gen last night I am fairly sure that they did advocate DnD for aggro even on single targets 'cause we need everything we can get-it can be our snap aggro for non-frosties. Where did you read that? DnD does not cause a lot of damage and threat right off the bat; it multiplies up fairly quick, but it is by no stretch a snap aggro ability. It might be worth dropping in a single target rotation if it cost runic power, or at least wasn't a 3-rune ability. But at the start of a fight, you're blowing a large amount of your resources on your opening move that could be used on a few hard hitting single target strikes.

In aoe pulls it makes plenty of sense, because it will build threat on everything while you smack the focus target in the face. But on a single target, you're going to get more threat front-loaded by instant attacks. (once diseases are up, anyhow)

If you're worried abbout initial aggro generation, make sure you're opening with something that generates threat. A lot of new DK tanks will typically always open with death grip, which isn't really the best option. Save that for tricky pulls, casters or if you just really know your stuff and are confident that you can keep threat after you grab it. Icy touch is my usual opener of choice, but your mileage may vary.


I started reading a bit about causing RS to proc more frequently but didnt see a lot-how does that work exactly? It frustrates me because I use it when I can but it doesnt seem to be up nearly as much as Im reading it should be, and aiming to get the tanking relic really concerns me.Rune strike procs off of your avoidance. When you dodge or parry an attack, it will light up for you. What this means for you, basically, is that it's tied directly to your gear. As your equipment - and thus avoidance - gets better, your rune strike procs will go up. (It also means you will have more procs when fighting multiple mobs as there are more incoming hits you have the potential to dodge)

There's not really much you can do personally to make it proc more beyond making sure that you aren't letting mobs get behind you where they can bypass your avoidance.




I'll look at the stats and equipment a bit later, as I'm a bit short on time atm.

[Gorvena]

Not to be all negative, but of all the pugs I've run in heroics lately, only one of the fail groups had a non-DK tank, and that warrior should have never been tanking HoR.

[Grayslin]

That's not terribly surprising when you think about it.

Since you don't have to level one all the way from 1, everyone looks at it and thinks "Oh, a tank I won't have to level! Sure, I'll try it!" Most of these players are used to playing dps classes, which really only require you to monitor yourself. Tanks have to monitor the whole battlefield, and these part-time tanks don't realize this.

On top of that, you can throw in the fact that Death Knights are not a class well-suited for beginner tanks. (Don't ask me how I made that learning curve, I'm not actually certain I did.)

Edit: Also factor in that we're one of the squishier tank classes. So there's that too.

[Moknim]

DK's (in five mans) seem to be incredibly squishy, even when fairly well geared (might just be my experience with them though). RNG can really hurt them.

Oh, and HoR just sucks to tank period - Paladins and warriors have it best in there, IMO, and that isn't saying it is even moderately easy for them.

[Grayslin]

Yeah, I pretty much refuse to tank HoR as a DK. It blows big time. You really have to have a shield there.

As far as our squishiness, you can blame that on the almighty "pvp balance." Frost presence was supposed to make up for our lack of a shield and they nerfed it into the ground because people complained about it in pvp.

[Grayslin]

Just for kicks, here she is (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&n=Calianthe). Poke away. Just got the chest last night; the legs are next on the shopping list because I'll lose 31 def when I get them so I needed to the surplus of def to cover that and hopefully work in more stam gems. Yes Im aware my boots are ghetto but beggars can't be choosers. ; b How are my stats, and what raids could I possibly tank? I have a polearm as well-its a ag/stam one but has higher DPS and top end damage. Also read that that would be more appropriate for tanking. Thoughts? After Im done with my Koltira's what should I get next? My DPS set is ok, but I dont think it has enough of a GS to get me into much of anything.
The boots are actually not too bad when you consider there's a horrible dearth of good tanking boots in general. Hell, until I got the ones from heroic forge, I was still running around in 213 valor badge boots. Yours are just the non-heroic version of the ones I have now.

For your gems, I wouldn't worry too much about gemming avoidance, plenty of that will come with gear. I'd ignore slot requirements and go stam, stam, stam. I noticed you had one or two hit gems also. If you're having threat issues, it's probably best to stick with them for now, but once your gear gets better, being at hit cap is not as important as your defenses.

If you want to know what raids you're geared to tank, just go to wow-heroes.com and import your stuff from the armory. It will give you a handy dandy graph of what raids you should be focusing on.

[Gorvena]

HoR is a paladin tank specific instance.

*shakes fist* Damn you Blizzard!

[Moknim]

HoR is a paladin tank specific instance.

*shakes fist* Damn you Blizzard!

Its not H.MgT bad - I don't mind tanking it on my warr as long as everyone else isn't total fail, but I won't do it on my druid because no interrupts = the suck.

Back on topic...my DK just got out to northrend (big accomplishment I know) and I am unholy tank spec. AoE is a breeze, and I'm enjoying it. Thinking about respeccing frost though - have had a few instances where a pet has pulled a second group and I need something beyond pestilence/D&D (do they ever get an AoE taunt?). Thinking howling blast might be the answer.

[Agnarr]

(do they ever get an AoE taunt?)
No.
Frost is fun though, in my opinion.

[Grayslin]

Blood = Excellent single target threat, but poor aoe
Unholy = Nice AoE threat (Though not as awesome as it was back in the days of the old UB), but poor single target thanks to some of your dps being done through ghoul.

Frost is a nice compromise between the two, and probably has the best passive mitigation/avoidance. It also has a nice quick aoe grab in Howling Blast, which is the closest you are going to get to an aoe taunt on a DK.

[Broxigan]

So, having tanked quite a bit, I will say that to me, Frost is great for the LFD tool because of all the AOE and the quick movement through the instances. DnD > HB [Glyphed] > Blood Boil tends to work great for an opener for me. After that, it is just cycling through a rotation. And HB works wonders when someone pulls a pat or another group by accident.

[Grayslin]

My feelings about the tree exactly there, borx.

[Faeriel]

HoR is a paladin tank specific instance.

*shakes fist* Damn you Blizzard!

I've tanked Halls on both my Paladin and my DK, and the DK in gear acquired solely from other heroics and badges. It's not as hard as some people seem to think.

[Moknim]

So, having tanked quite a bit, I will say that to me, Frost is great for the LFD tool because of all the AOE and the quick movement through the instances. DnD > HB [Glyphed] > Blood Boil tends to work great for an opener for me. After that, it is just cycling through a rotation. And HB works wonders when someone pulls a pat or another group by accident.

I tanked one TBC instance as frost last night - decided I need the glyph (killing machine HB as an opener is pretty awesome). I never used DnD since HB+BB+Pest seemed to keep aggro, but I am sure this will change. It seems more enjoyable than unholy - less rotation oriented as you have things that may proc (HB off of Obliterate), to make things more interesting.

Questions:
HB is a radius thing (a la T.Clap), not conal (a la shockwave) correct?
Is FS the better runic dump, or rune strike (I googled and saw both)?

Only thing is I wish BB converted blood to death runes.

[Broxigan]

I always heard Rune Strike it up. If Rune Strike isn't up, for whatever reason, Frost strike.

And HOWLING BLAST us a radius thing from the target it is used on. 5-10 yards or something.

[Faeriel]

I think it's a 10 yard radius. I've seen it hit things that seemed fairly far away from the initial target. Frost Strike is your "I have too much Runic Power" ability. Generally, I only use it if I know I'll still have enough to Rune Strike on my next weapon attack.

[Grayslin]

I tanked one TBC instance as frost last night - decided I need the glyph (killing machine HB as an opener is pretty awesome). I never used DnD since HB+BB+Pest seemed to keep aggro, but I am sure this will change. It seems more enjoyable than unholy - less rotation oriented as you have things that may proc (HB off of Obliterate), to make things more interesting.
Yea, get the HB glyph and then you can pretty much totally forget about pestilence. All your aoe stuff that is affected by diseases is either not dependent on the number of diseases or only works with frost fever. With the HB glyph, you can open with that and then 2 BB's. (Though I generally drop a DnD anyway, just for good measure and only have the rune for 1 BB)

Also, don't know what spec you're using, but if you can spare a point, I found it useful to stick it into (deathchill?) the "crit on next" activated CD. That way, you don't really need to worry about saving KM for the next pull, or trying to get to it before KM drops.

Questions:

HB is a radius thing (a la T.Clap), not conal (a la shockwave) correct?As the others said, your target and everything within 10 yds of it. So it's a radius, but not anchored on you.

Is FS the better runic dump, or rune strike (I googled and saw both)?Rune Strike > Frost Strike in most cases. However, if RS isn't up, I usually will go ahead and dump with FS. (Also, if KM is up, and it's a single target pull, I'll go for the critted FS instead.)


Only thing is I wish BB converted blood to death runes.I'd probably spend them on more BB's anyway since there's a CD on HB. :D

[Sejarki]

You should macro Rune Strike to your major attacks. I was very hesitant to do so way back when, but I've never looked back. The concern is that you may not have enough RP left for IBF or Mind Freeze, but it's a stupid concern that never comes up in reality land. RP is pretty easy to come by and if you don't have enough for IBF or Mind Freeze it's 10x more likely that it's because you dumped all your RP into Frost Strike. So yes, macro Rune Strike and just dump excess RP into Frost Strike.


I wish we had an AoE attack powered via Runic Power. Want for Frost or Blood in Cataclysm.

[Grayslin]

Ugh, I've tried macroing it in, and I don't like it. Feels like it's taking some control away from me. I have no trouble tagging it in-between GCD's and that's good enough for me.

[opalexian]

Blood has fantastic single target threat, but comes in a bit behind in the aoe threat department, which could be why you're having problems. Since you're the only tank in a 5-man run, you will typically have more than one thing to tank at a time, which makes for a lot of unnecessary work for you as blood. Now, if you're more interested in raid boss tanking, I'd stick with blood so you can learn it inside and out.

Yup, totally my intent, although I've been doing very well in heroics as long as the healer doesn't suck. I feel sometimes like people die too much around me, but I dont know how much of that is actually me and how much of that is tards in the LFD queue (I'd give it 50/50 maybe...)


Where did you read that? DnD does not cause a lot of damage and threat right off the bat; it multiplies up fairly quick, but it is by no stretch a snap aggro ability. It might be worth dropping in a single target rotation if it cost runic power, or at least wasn't a 3-rune ability. But at the start of a fight, you're blowing a large amount of your resources on your opening move that could be used on a few hard hitting single target strikes.

In aoe pulls it makes plenty of sense, because it will build threat on everything while you smack the focus target in the face. But on a single target, you're going to get more threat front-loaded by instant attacks. (once diseases are up, anyhow)

I'd swear I read it on the big TankSpot DK tanking guide but I couldnt find it. I think the idea was that throwing in the extra aggro over time will help you keep threat. Of course if the mob doesn't have all that many HP that really is a waste, but an 80 elite non-boss mob who is, say, a giant stone dude, will prolly take a little time to kill until your DPS is out of this world, so throwing down DnD will help the overall fight. The only times I find myself not able to keep aggro are when I forget to put on FP *cough*, when the DPS are the ADD overzealous brats that show up in LFD between @3-9 ST who collectively decide to all target different targets (its like they have a hive mind or something o_O,) or you have someone in there who ridiculously overgears you AND doesnt give a shit about threat. No joke, these fucktards are almost ALWAYS rettards, although I've had a lock or two do it as well. I WILL NOT TAKE ALL THE BLAME FOR YOU NOT WATCHING YOUR AGGRO BECAUSE YOU ARE MENTALLY DEFICIENT. D:<


If you're worried abbout initial aggro generation, make sure you're opening with something that generates threat. A lot of new DK tanks will typically always open with death grip, which isn't really the best option. Save that for tricky pulls, casters or if you just really know your stuff and are confident that you can keep threat after you grab it. Icy touch is my usual opener of choice, but your mileage may vary.

WOO I'm doing something right! :D I will use DG, but only if it's no big deal (that first pull in an instance where you'll have back by the time you need it again) or when you've successfully played 'spot the caster'-LOVE doing this, those bastards always think they're so safe in their 'Im ranged and you're a tank neener!' smugness. ; 3 I have been known, on occasion, to use DnD as the pull if I dont think any are a caster-with the ADDers in LFD it will often be your aggro saver as you can lay it down before anyone else can even think about doing something. o_O


Rune strike procs off of your avoidance. When you dodge or parry an attack, it will light up for you. What this means for you, basically, is that it's tied directly to your gear. As your equipment - and thus avoidance - gets better, your rune strike procs will go up. (It also means you will have more procs when fighting multiple mobs as there are more incoming hits you have the potential to dodge)

There's not really much you can do personally to make it proc more beyond making sure that you aren't letting mobs get behind you where they can bypass your avoidance.

Okie, makes sense...Im working on that, as you saw from my gear. Thanks for looking at that BTW-I'm really happy to hear another DK look at my boots and NOT laugh at them-they'd be embarrassing for the shield block, but that one wasted stat is still MUCH better than the blues it replaced. Going to get my pants sometime today I think, then I should really be able to kick up my stats-the excess def I have now is going to be eaten by the deficit I'll be getting on my pants (WTF is with all those blues that had hella DEF on them?!?!? o_O)

Thanks for your input, Syl. I'll try not to kill you sometime or something. <3




I'll look at the stats and equipment a bit later, as I'm a bit short on time atm.[/QUOTE]

[Grayslin]

I think the idea was that throwing in the extra aggro over time will help you keep threat. Of course if the mob doesn't have all that many HP that really is a waste, but an 80 elite non-boss mob who is, say, a giant stone dude, will prolly take a little time to kill until your DPS is out of this world, so throwing down DnD will help the overall fight.
Well, I'm still of the opinion that the higher initial threat on a single target pull is more useful. As a DK, your threat starts out slow, but once things start swinging at you so you can rune strike and your dots start ticking, you should be pulling well ahead anyway without the delayed threat the DnD would have given you, and you'll have had a less annoying time keeping aggro at the start of the fight.


WOO I'm doing something right! :D I will use DG, but only if it's no big deal (that first pull in an instance where you'll have back by the time you need it again) or when you've successfully played 'spot the caster'-LOVE doing this, those bastards always think they're so safe in their 'Im ranged and you're a tank neener!' smugness. ; 3 I have been known, on occasion, to use DnD as the pull if I dont think any are a caster-with the ADDers in LFD it will often be your aggro saver as you can lay it down before anyone else can even think about doing something. o_OThere's no one right way to do it. The way I do it is look at the pull, target the caster and throw a skull on it. (This will usually get the dps'ers to focus, at least on the first target and you don't have to be the group leader to do it anymore.) Then I drop a DnD right in front of them as I run up and DG the caster to me while the melee mobs run in.

Then I drop a deathchilled (instant-cast free crit talent) HB on them which does a good bit of damage/threat and since its glyphed, applies frost fever to all of them. Then I can drop a blood boil and do the extra damage from them being diseased without having to apply pestilence. Good luck pulling off me after that >.<



I'm really happy to hear another DK look at my boots and NOT laugh at them-they'd be embarrassing for the shield block, but that one wasted stat is still MUCH better than the blues it replaced. You should try to run heroic forge though. The better version of those boots doesn't have shield block on it. ;) Black Spire Sabatons (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50207)


(WTF is with all those blues that had hella DEF on them?!?!? o_O)The saronite stuff? That's early crafted tanking gear that's basically for helping you hit the def cap quickly so you can start tanking heroics.

[opalexian]

You should try to run heroic forge though. The better version of those boots doesn't have shield block on it. ;) Black Spire Sabatons (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50207)

Oh I do, but I get into grinding badges so much that I just go with what I get (which too often is fucking halls of some ulduar crap -_-)

I think I've seen those drop!....on Opal. =_= Knew that was gonna happen-she's DE'd so much plate, and now I just get a smattering.

OHEY, any tips for doing the ice tunnel of fucking HELL? Maybe it's 'cause Im not frost, but I could NOT keep the aggro off the shaman healer and they eventually booted me. : / (Although to be fair it was my first time in there.)

[Grayslin]

Not much way around it, that part is going to suck as a blood tank. I've seen a pug blood tank do it when I was running the place on my rogue, but didn't really think to ask her at the time how she managed it.

Blood boil will be your friend, definitely.

I'd say try this... Go ahead and pop IBF once you get a few on you so your healer doesn't have to heal you much and won't generate too much threat. Try to be far enough ahead that you get body aggro, and if you see sometehing run past you, hit blood boil fast. Once you get to the center part, drop a dnd, put diseases on something, pestilence and then blood boil your face off. I can't guarantee it will work, but it's the best strategy I can think of.

Since Emmet has more experience with blood tanking, maybe he has some advice?

[opalexian]

*waits patiently for Emmet to return*

I successfully tanked my first raid boss last night! Did Maly...but we kept phailz in phase 3 >_< (I had only been there once and that was a year ago o_O) Then on the THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE LAST PULL pull I somehow lost aggro and everyone was eaten *cough*wrongpresence*cough* >_< I really need to make a postit on my comp for that. Now I just need to start weaseling into TOCs to get her other 200 and 219 level shit replaced o_O

Frost badge cloak, come to me ;.;

[Broxigan]

I will eventually see Maly or Sarth or Marrowgar or UFASEJARRAXUS

[opalexian]

Jarraxus's sisters are WHORES, SERIOUSLY. 'Aggro table' WTF!!??! -_-

[Lailinarel]

Umm, they have completely normal aggro table, they just run off randomly to LOLS Zangief some douchebag from your raid for the luls.

[Moknim]

Umm, they have completely normal aggro table, they just run off randomly to LOLS Zangief some douchebag from your raid for the luls.

Yup.

Standard aggro table except that they run off at some point, grab someone and busts a flying suplex on them. Then they return to their highest threat target.