Calling all computer nerds!

[Xaraphyne]

Fhen's computer died and I've tried a few things but can't seem to fix or at least identify the problem... I know there are people here who know more than me!

It's a Dimension E521 in which I installed additional memory some time ago. A couple nights ago, the computer locked up and when restarted, began showing gibberish (assorted characters) all over the Dell loading screen. Then the Windows XP loading screen appears normally and takes about as long as it normally takes; however, after it finishes, nothing else ever shows up. The screen either remains black (but not true black, as though it is getting a signal) or the monitor reports lost signal entirely. The computer remains on and takes a few moments to power down when the power button is held in (versus instantly). After being force-restarted, in addition to the above, the computer also shows gibberish all over the screen in which you can select to boot into Safe Mode.

When booted in Safe Mode, the computer appears perfectly fine. I restored to a previous point and tried booting up again with the same results. I also tried switching the monitor connection from RGB to DVI but never received a picture in that case. I ran as many Dell diagnostics as I could find (the one that tests the drives in the boot menu, and pretty much every one under the F10 menu) and everything passed.

I removed the graphics card (NVIDIA GeForce 7300 LE), hooked up the monitor to the onboard video port, and in the BIOS selected Auto in the video options to have it default to the onboard video. Gibberish stopped showing up on the Dell loading screen, but once again after the Windows loading screen, it hung in the exact same fashion.

I suspect the graphics card is damaged, but something else may be a problem as well. Suggestions for other things to try or things I missed?

[Grayslin]

Try hitting it with a hammer. That always works in the movies.


It doesn't really sound like a graphics problem to me, though I could be mistaken. It sounds like something might be corrupted.

I'm not an expert though.

[Xaraphyne]

Your technical expertise astounds me my friend! XD

Edit: Oh, you edited. That's much less amusing. Hmm.. I'm wondering if it is software-related, like a virus maybe, although the system restore should have fixed that at least temporarily...

[Broxigan]

Very highly a motherboard issue.

Something similar happened to me with my computer. Not the jibberish but the unable to boot upness.

[Xaraphyne]

It just throws me off that it boots up fine in Safe Mode, I can do whatever. You think it could be the motherboard in that case?

If it is, fuck if I'm replacing that, I wanted to get him a new computer anyway.

[Broxigan]

Well...hm.

I could be something bad in the Hard Drive itself. A bad sector or something vital is screwed up/corrupted which is NOT loaded when booting into safe mode. Hence why you are able to boot up into safe but not normal.

Also, could be bad cables.

Or the port where the cables meet the motherboard.

From this end, it is hard to tell, but if running off the built in VGA doesn't work and that cancels out the Video Card issue, it points to either HD or MB

And I doubt it is RAM. You would get some beeping or not even able to go into safe mode otherwise.

[Gorvena]

I wanted to get him a new computer anyway.
There are some sweet gaming rigs available at the Egg...nice specs and a whole lot less expensive than AW too.

[Xaraphyne]

Well...hm.

I could be something bad in the Hard Drive itself. A bad sector or something vital is screwed up/corrupted which is NOT loaded when booting into safe mode. Hence why you are able to boot up into safe but not normal.

Also, could be bad cables.

Or the port where the cables meet the motherboard.

From this end, it is hard to tell, but if running off the built in VGA doesn't work and that cancels out the Video Card issue, it points to either HD or MB

And I doubt it is RAM. You would get some beeping or not even able to go into safe mode otherwise.

I think it may be something corrupted on the hard drive as you said and Sylennis suggested. Guess I'll try porting Fhen's files then reformatting.

Or maybe I'll be lazy and go buy him a new computer. >_> I wanted to anyway, the poor thing was using my three-year-old-and-not-even-top-of-the-line-then computer.

[Cabriel]

No, get one of these. (http://www.doghousesystems.com/)

[Xaraphyne]

There are some sweet gaming rigs available at the Egg...nice specs and a whole lot less expensive than AW too.

Glancing through, looks like there's some pretty damn good value in there, like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883227147 <-- A very significant upgrade to what he had... Probably almost as good as my (person-bludgeoning-capable) laptop. Only problem is, Newegg only has Vista, and to be honest I'm trying to avoid it as long as possible. D:


No, get one of these. (http://www.doghousesystems.com/)

http://www.doghousesystems.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Armor%5FVS looks pretty hot... and I can get XP for only $75 more!

I shall investigate further.

[Gorvena]

Vista is pretty stable now. Works fine on my notebook that you saw. But I still put XP on my home-built.

[Xaraphyne]

I'm not so much worried with how it'll perform (except maybe a little worried about the RAM hog it'll be), more so that I don't want to have to learn a new OS yet if I can help it.

[Gorvena]

It's pretty intuitive. And if you go 4g of RAM you have plenty for Vista and WoW (or whatever you're doing).

[Nadea]

Do you have any extra hard drives kicking around? Or if you have to, run out and purchase a cheap 40gig hard drive, and format that and throw windows on it. If it works, then he can run windows off that one and should be able to set the other hard drive to secondary and at least grab his files and whatnot. Or you can get a bigger HD if you think thats definitely the issue so he can get everything off his old one (unless you have the backup space on your laptop!).
But thats certainly what its sounding like to me, HD failure of some sort.

[Xaraphyne]

Do you have any extra hard drives kicking around? Or if you have to, run out and purchase a cheap 40gig hard drive, and format that and throw windows on it. If it works, then he can run windows off that one and should be able to set the other hard drive to secondary and at least grab his files and whatnot. Or you can get a bigger HD if you think thats definitely the issue so he can get everything off his old one (unless you have the backup space on your laptop!).
But thats certainly what its sounding like to me, HD failure of some sort.

I'm not sure it's a complete hard drive failure, considering that it does boot up in safe mode fine, and that it passed every diagnostic I could get my hands on. Unfortunately the only other desktop I have is the ancient 10+ year old behemoth that doesn't work and which actually has a hard drive that I want files off of in it... Too bad it's got the old IDE type connections.

I've never really had to do much in regards to recovering files, can safe mode say with networking enable you to patch directly to other computers, go through routers, hook up external hard drives (I have a USB one that it'd be a cinch to copy his files onto if it works), or burn CDs?

I noticed when I tried Safe Mode with Networking that Internet wasn't working, but I didn't really look into it.

EDIT: Ooh I like this one... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883103154 <-- $170 cheaper than the Doghouse with the same graphics card, two hard drives, 8 GB RAM (!), and a slightly smaller processor. No XP though.

[Xaraphyne]

And since this has become a "what computer should I get" thread...

Still eyeing some Dell premades, for a number of reasons. They're a bit more expensive ($1350) but that's with a 3.0Ghz processor and a ATI Radeon HD 4870 1024MB video card (nom). Also, I can get no interest on it for a year, which is what I did with my laptop, and that's a very good thing.

[Gorvena]

Dells are stable; I just think you can beat the price. The financing is a nice feature though.

[Karkarov]

Actually it sounds similar to a video card problem I have had in the past though not precisely the same. To clarify the moniter reports signal loss after you boot right? Are you using a seperate gfx's card or are you using onboard video?

PS: In response to Vista... yeah it runs like a champ. All you have to do is make sure a couple fairly simple to check or uncheck things are set up right and your account has full admin privledges and it will give you very few issues. Takes less than five minutes to do. Yes you will need 4 gig of ram, but that is fairly standard these days.

PPS: I pulled up parts for a friend recently that cost around 800 dollars ((all off newegg)) and it is basically equal to the dell you are talking about in all respects except graphics card. Trust me, you do not want to buy a dell, I used to be a huge fan of them but they got too big for their own good. All you get from them now is overpriced hardware, crap customer support, and systems that are not upgrade friendly.

[Xaraphyne]

Actually it sounds similar to a video card problem I have had in the past though not precisely the same. To clarify the moniter reports signal loss after you boot right? Are you using a seperate gfx's card or are you using onboard video?

Well as I said, I actually pulled out the graphics card and hooked it up to the onboard graphics, and the gibberish went away, but it still hangs at a blank screen after getting past the Windows XP loading screen.


PS: In response to Vista... yeah it runs like a champ. All you have to do is make sure a couple fairly simple to check or uncheck things are set up right and your account has full admin privledges and it will give you very few issues. Takes less than five minutes to do. Yes you will need 4 gig of ram, but that is fairly standard these days.

PPS: I pulled up parts for a friend recently that cost around 800 dollars ((all off newegg)) and it is basically equal to the dell you are talking about in all respects except graphics card. Trust me, you do not want to buy a dell, I used to be a huge fan of them but they got too big for their own good. All you get from them now is overpriced hardware, crap customer support, and systems that are not upgrade friendly.

Yeah, the Dimension I'm talking about, I actually looked to upgrade it awhile back, and its interior and power supply were definitely not conducive to that. As for building a machine from scratch, I've always found that it ends up being nearly the same price anyway -- once you factor in the cost of an OS. Especially when you're looking at sites like newegg where geeks are the audience being catered to, they're not going to charge you very much more for a pre-built system than its parts. A hundred bucks or so at most, and you get a warranty and service, as well as knowledge that the parts are going to be compatible and put together right.


The financing is a nice feature though.

Oh yeah... it's tempting. I'd have to go a bit higher-end (and therefore pricier) than I really wanted to in order to qualify, though, so it's kind of a tossup.


Oh, and looks like I had the price wrong, with the discount they're offering this week ('cause they always have one) the machine I described is about $1220.

[Xaraphyne]

So here's what I'm looking at. Looks like my company's member program discount actually stacks with (yes I phrased it that way /facepalm) Dell's other discounts, so:



Intel® Core™2 E8400 (6MB,3.0 GHz, 1333FSB)
ATI Radeon HD 4870 1024MB AT4870 --OR-- SLi, Dual nVidia GeForce 9800GT 512MB
4GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 800MHz - 4 DIMMs
Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate Bonus (which is XP that you can upgrade to Vista if you want, woohoo)
Hard Drive 500GB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
Optical Drive Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
McAfee SecurityCenter 15-months
1Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis
=
$1,130.30
with no interest for 12 months, and free shipping :O

Pretty good deal and tempting finance options. Verrry tempting.



Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300(2.5GHz) (6MB L2 Cache)
NVIDIA GeForce 9800GT 512MB dedicated VRAM
Memory 8GB DDR2 (Memory Slots (Available/Total) 0/4)
Hard Drive 1280GB (2 x 640GB) SATA
Optical Drive 1 Super-Multi drive (DVD+R, DVD-R, DVD-RAM)
Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit (English / French)
Manufacturer Warranty Parts 1 year limited Labor 1 year limited
=
$899.99
plus about $25 shipping fee.

Erring a little on the cheap side, but some nice bonuses for the price, and getting an awesome video card.



Intel® Core™ 2 Duo E7400 (2.8GHz x 2)
Nvidia GeForce 9800 GT (512MB) PCI-Express Graphics Card
4 GB Kingston DDR2 667 Memory (4 x 1GB DIMMs)
1 x 250GB 7200 RPM WD SATA drive
20X Pioneer Dual Layer DVD +/- RW drive
Windows XP Professional 32 bit
Thermaltake 450W Power Supply
One Years Parts and Labor Warranty
=
$1,120.00
plus about $45 shipping fee.

/shrug



More frugal options:



AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ (2 x 512KB L2 Cache)
NVIDIA GeForce 9500GT 1GB Video Card
Memory 4GB DDR2 800 (Memory Spec 2GB x 2 (Memory Slots (Available/Total) 0/2)
Hard Drive 500GB SATA II
Optical Drive 1 22X DL DVD+/-RW Drive
Power Supply 480W
Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit
Manufacturer Warranty Parts 1 year limited Labor 1 year limited
=
$509.99
plus about $25 shipping fee.

A solid replacement without shelling out.



Intel® Core™i7-920 Processor(8MB L2 Cache, 2.66GHz)
ATI Radeon HD 4670 512MB
4GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1066MHz - 4 edit
HARD DRIVE 500GB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1, 64-Bit
1Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis
McAfee SecurityCenter with anti-virus, anti-spyware, firewall, 15-months
=
$882.57
with no interest for 12 months, and free shipping :O

Eh.


EDIT EDIT: Thought I got confused on one but guess I didn't. Copy and pasting is hard :(

[Grolish]

That first rig from Newegg looks like your best value. I would think twice about getting a system with only a 450W power supply. That's barely enough to power these systems and if you want to upgrade the video card in the future (most likely upgrade) you'll have to upgrade the PS to support it. 550W is the absolute lowest I would go.

I tend to agree that you're most likely looking at a hard drive problem, but I've also seen memory not seated properly do the same thing. If you haven't already done it, pull the memory chips and re-seat them. Quick and easy way to eliminate one possible problem, anyway.

[Jeedup]

I've personally found paying for a computer more than 500 bucks pointless.

Granted, I try and time my computer buying purchases near Christmass. Good ol' religious discounts!

[Xaraphyne]

That first rig from Newegg looks like your best value. I would think twice about getting a system with only a 450W power supply. That's barely enough to power these systems and if you want to upgrade the video card in the future (most likely upgrade) you'll have to upgrade the PS to support it. 550W is the absolute lowest I would go.

I tend to agree that you're most likely looking at a hard drive problem, but I've also seen memory not seated properly do the same thing. If you haven't already done it, pull the memory chips and re-seat them. Quick and easy way to eliminate one possible problem, anyway.

I actually ended up screwing around with the memory while I was in there anyway since I realized I had two 512 MB chips sitting around for no reason. So I put 'em in and took 'em back out. Granted I didn't have to touch the memory stick in the first slot. I'll have to try adjusting that one just in case.

EDIT: Also, thanks for the advice. The old computer had a 305W power supply which I discovered was terrible indeed for upgrading parts. So I can believe that a 450W is meh at best. I wonder what the other models I posted have for power supplies, they neglected to mention in the specs...


I've personally found paying for a computer more than 500 bucks pointless.

Granted, I try and time my computer buying purchases near Christmass. Good ol' religious discounts!

I think after getting used to my laptop, Fhen's not gonna wanna go back to a <$500 computer. D:

My laptop btw (brag brag):

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Extreme X9000(2.8GHz/800Mhz FSB/6M L2 Cache)
NVIDIA®SLI™Dual GeForce®8700MGT with 512MB GDDR3 Memory
4GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz
Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate Bonus (which I kept as XP)
160GB SATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) Free Fall Sensor
CD / DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW Drive)
Intel® PRO/Wireless 4965a/g/n Mini Card
High Definition Audio 2.0
17 inch UltraSharp TrueLife Wide-screen WUXGA
AGEIA PhysX™ 100M Processor
LCD Logitech® GamePanel Display
1Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor,24x7 Phone Support


...and then I load all my mods and I have <20 FPS. :( I fail at computer gaming.

[Swerto]

Sounds like a virus to me, one that is embedded in the system folders. Just hope it's not a rootkit or you won't be able to remove it (without deleting the entire partition on the harddrive).

Send me a message with more details.

[Gorvena]

Originally Posted by Newegg
Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300(2.5GHz) (6MB L2 Cache)
NVIDIA GeForce 9800GT 512MB dedicated VRAM
Memory 8GB DDR2 (Memory Slots (Available/Total) 0/4)
Hard Drive 1280GB (2 x 640GB) SATA
Optical Drive 1 Super-Multi drive (DVD+R, DVD-R, DVD-RAM)
Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit (English / French)
Manufacturer Warranty Parts 1 year limited Labor 1 year limited
=
$899.99
plus about $25 shipping fee.
This one, as long as the power supply is bigger. Link it and I can find out.

[Xaraphyne]

Sounds like a virus to me, one that is embedded in the system folders. Just hope it's not a rootkit or you won't be able to remove it (without deleting the entire partition on the harddrive).

Send me a message with more details.

Uhh... what detail -didn't- I include? Man, did you read that monster of a first post I wrote?

I've been skeptical of it being a virus since system restoring to a previous point didn't help.


This one, as long as the power supply is bigger. Link it and I can find out.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883103154

[Gorvena]

Hm. Very curious that they don't list the wattage of the power supply...

And don't waste your time on Swerto; he argues like a grandmother.

[Cabriel]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/funny-pictures-cat-upgrades-your-firewall.jpg

[Karkarov]

A 500 watt psu is fine even for most high end cards (!!!!) so long as you dont go sli or crossfire and stay single card. If you want to use dual cards you will definately need more umph in the psu like Grolish said. Also look at the company... all pc parts were not made equal.

[Agnarr]

viruses like to hide in restore points.

[Szordrin]

I haven't read everyone's response as I have only looked at the first page but...

A few months back I had similar problems with my Gateway. It could very well be a motherboard/harddrive issue. I think it was some sort of transfuser or whatever it's called... but anyway, I had three that were fried. When I booted it would load all the way to the windows and then go black, occasionally giving me a blue screen. Might want to open up the shell and see if any of those battery looking things have a popped top. I wish I could remember it's name. I feel like I'm telling you to find a needle in a haystack.

Thats the best I can do though.

[Swerto]

Uhh... what detail -didn't- I include? Man, did you read that monster of a first post I wrote?

I've been skeptical of it being a virus since system restoring to a previous point didn't help.



http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883103154
The thing about viral infections is that if people are smart enough they can easily get around a system restore in windows. System restore isn't literally picking up your computer, putting it in a time machine, and taking it back to the date specified. Instead it is the computer reading files, seeing what date they were adding, checking this with the system registry, and changing what it can. Things that have not been overwritten, but deleted, are often restored.

A well written virus can not only have a false date added placed upon it,but also edit the system registry.

The worst part of using a windows machine is the fact that you are so susceptible to viral infections. You are constantly running as root, this is DIFFERENT than administrator. ROOT entails that you have full access at all times, while the user interface may deny you access to certain parts as a user, programs running can run virtually any command in the background and still get access. Unix, and therefore Linux, operating systems are immune to this due to the fact that they rarely run as root, and running as root is actually something you have to choose to do. Running as a non admin on windows simply stops you, as a user, from editing things, changing things, or installing things in places you are unwanted.

When a virus, or a worm, or any other malicious software, attacks a windows operating system it easily can gain full control. In Linux, even if you are running as an administrator, if a virus even gets to the point it has been installed on the system it will not have the permission to write anywhere outside of the home folder (which is the current folder), it will also lack the permissions to execute anything that could possibly give it control. The only way to truly infect a Linux OS is via a Trojan hidden within a certain programs code that you have to sudo to use (such as system options, or apt-get programs). This will give the program full root privileges until closed.

The ONLY reason I still run windows on this machine is because I game, otherwise I'd be running the new version of Ubuntu (9.04 just released).

[Xaraphyne]

viruses like to hide in restore points.


The thing about viral infections is that if people are smart enough they can easily get around a system restore in windows. System restore isn't literally picking up your computer, putting it in a time machine, and taking it back to the date specified. Instead it is the computer reading files, seeing what date they were adding, checking this with the system registry, and changing what it can. Things that have not been overwritten, but deleted, are often restored.

A well written virus can not only have a false date added placed upon it,but also edit the system registry.

Yeah, fair enough. But I did have a firewall on that machine and Fhen hadn't downloaded anything recently (and no he's not lying to me). Obviously not enough evidence to completely exclude a virus, but that on top of that it'd have to be one that's smart enough to get around a system restore, -and- the fact that the video card appears to have sustained some kind of physical damage, and... Eh, I'm just not seeing it as likely as hardware failure.


I haven't read everyone's response as I have only looked at the first page but...

A few months back I had similar problems with my Gateway. It could very well be a motherboard/harddrive issue. I think it was some sort of transfuser or whatever it's called... but anyway, I had three that were fried. When I booted it would load all the way to the windows and then go black, occasionally giving me a blue screen. Might want to open up the shell and see if any of those battery looking things have a popped top. I wish I could remember it's name. I feel like I'm telling you to find a needle in a haystack.

Thats the best I can do though.

Thanks for the info, a coworker actually suggested I check the transistors on the motherboard for something similar. I didn't think about it last night but I'll check tonight.


Also, I'm leaning toward the Dell. The Newegg is a good deal, but I can get double the video card-age, a better processor, Windows XP, and better financing options for only $200 more, so I'm starting to think I may as well. The Dell:


Intel® Core™2 E8400 (6MB,3.0 GHz, 1333FSB)
ATI Radeon HD 4870 1024MB AT4870 --OR-- SLi, Dual nVidia GeForce 9800GT 512MB
4GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 800MHz - 4 DIMMs
Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate Bonus (which is XP that you can upgrade to Vista if you want, woohoo)
Hard Drive 500GB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
Optical Drive Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
McAfee SecurityCenter 15-months
1Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis
=
$1,130.30
with no interest for 12 months, and free shipping :O

Just not sure which video card setup is better, the 1024MB ATI Radeon 4870 or the dual 512MB nVidia GeForce 9800's. Suggestions?

[Kelven]

Given what you were saying earlier about the gibberish going away when you switched off the video card and onto the onboard GPU, and the computer working fine in Safe Mode, it could be your video card drivers are corrupted. Go into Safe Mode and strip out the drivers for your graphics card, that might help.

[Xaraphyne]

Given what you were saying earlier about the gibberish going away when you switched off the video card and onto the onboard GPU, and the computer working fine in Safe Mode, it could be your video card drivers are corrupted. Go into Safe Mode and strip out the drivers for your graphics card, that might help.

You think the drivers for the graphics card are causing a problem even when the system is booted up without the graphics card installed?

[Kelven]

You think the drivers for the graphics card are causing a problem even when the system is booted up without the graphics card installed?

Yes. It's still trying to load them during boot, because it hasn't yet successfully booted and noticed you don't have a graphics card anymore. It won't perform that check until it's too late.

So uninstall the drivers while in Safe Mode. "I cannot find these drivers" is a less serious error than "I have found these drivers, and they have made my head explode."

I just find it curious that things improved when you removed the graphics card, and you have no problems getting into Safe Mode. These both suggest something is wrong with the graphics drivers, mostly because Safe Mode uses its own very basic display drivers. A serious hardware fault would interfere with Safe Mode too; so I'm thinking it's software. And we can fix software.

It's not necessarily the solution, but if it works: good. If it doesn't work: we have eliminated a possibility.

Other things to do: run a chkdsk on the hard drive. If it comes back with a lot of unreadable or corrupt files, then it's your HD and it's game over for the OS.

Open the hood and check your cables, RAM, and cards are all plugged in securely.

Test your RAM. There are a few utilities you can burn to a CD - you boot from the CD, and it runs a thorough test on your RAM chips.

Or just keep doing what you're doing and buy a new computer. That sounds like more fun anyway.

[Szordrin]

Dual video cards....? O_O *HEAD EXPLODY*

[Xaraphyne]

Yes. It's still trying to load them during boot, because it hasn't yet successfully booted and noticed you don't have a graphics card anymore. It won't perform that check until it's too late.

So uninstall the drivers while in Safe Mode. "I cannot find these drivers" is a less serious error than "I have found these drivers, and they have made my head explode."

I just find it curious that things improved when you removed the graphics card, and you have no problems getting into Safe Mode. These both suggest something is wrong with the graphics drivers, mostly because Safe Mode uses its own very basic display drivers. A serious hardware fault would interfere with Safe Mode too; so I'm thinking it's software. And we can fix software.

It's not necessarily the solution, but if it works: good. If it doesn't work: we have eliminated a possibility.

Good advice, I'd thought about the possibility it was some drivers considering that Safe Mode doesn't load most of them, but hadn't really thought through that the graphics card drivers could still be causing problems.


Other things to do: run a chkdsk on the hard drive. If it comes back with a lot of unreadable or corrupt files, then it's your HD and it's game over for the OS.

Open the hood and check your cables, RAM, and cards are all plugged in securely.

Test your RAM. There are a few utilities you can burn to a CD - you boot from the CD, and it runs a thorough test on your RAM chips.

Or just keep doing what you're doing and buy a new computer. That sounds like more fun anyway.

I ran about every diagnostic I could find, including the one under F12, the boot menu (I forget what it's called) and under F10, the Dell utility partition. I haven't really poked around the diagnostics that are in Safe Mode though, I could try those (though it feels like beating a dead horse, or maybe I just want to beat something after waiting hours and hours for diagnostics to finish yesterday and the day before).

I meant to play around with the RAM too, but I didn't get much time to work on it yesterday due to diagnostics and having to do other things. I actually have some spare RAM (two 512 chips that originally came with the machine) that I mean to swap in, just to see.


Dual video cards....? O_O *HEAD EXPLODY*

That'd probably be Fhen's reaction after seeing that kind of computer in action. The poor thing.

[Gorvena]

Dual video cards....? O_O *HEAD EXPLODY*
Dual vid cards are pure win. 60+fps all the time.

[Taknar]

I strongly suspect that Kelven's suggestion of a deep RAM check (you can like he said download seperate ones) would solve the issue, but make sure you are doing a deep scan. When I say deep, I mean turn it on and go away for the weekend deep.

I'm also surprised no one mentioned a BIOS update yet. If you are hanging when it tried to load up a certain number of drivers at the same time, it could definately be the BIOS at fault.

But yes, new computer is also shiney. Dell evil, build your own. http://www.tomshardware.com is a great research resource.

[Xaraphyne]

I'm also surprised no one mentioned a BIOS update yet. If you are hanging when it tried to load up a certain number of drivers at the same time, it could definately be the BIOS at fault.

Not saying it's impossible, but considering nothing new was loaded on.... ever, it would be surprising if it randomly stopped working for that reason.


But yes, new computer is also shiney. Dell evil, build your own. http://www.tomshardware.com is a great research resource.

I've been to that site, it's pretty good. But I think I've convinced myself to get the Dell, since my options are pretty much "spend $550 and replace his computer", "spend $900 and replace his computer well", or "spend $1100 and replace his computer exceptionally well".


I'm still not sure which video card setup is better though, the the 1024MB ATI Radeon 4870 or the dual 512MB nVidia GeForce 9800's... and I also have the option of switching the Intel Core2 E8400 Dual-Core (6MB,3.0 GHz, 1333FSB) for a Intel Core2 Q6600 Quad-Core (8MB L2 cache,2.40GHz,1066FSB) for $45 additional, but I'm not sure it'd perform better for gaming. I should check out that website unless anyone has advice to offer.

[Kelven]

Good advice, I'd thought about the possibility it was some drivers considering that Safe Mode doesn't load most of them, but hadn't really thought through that the graphics card drivers could still be causing problems.

It's certainly possible. I'm starting to lean more towards Taknar's suggestion of testing your RAM chips hard, though.


I ran about every diagnostic I could find, including the one under F12, the boot menu (I forget what it's called) and under F10, the Dell utility partition. I haven't really poked around the diagnostics that are in Safe Mode though, I could try those (though it feels like beating a dead horse, or maybe I just want to beat something after waiting hours and hours for diagnostics to finish yesterday and the day before).

On the upside, this is somewhat good news - the diagnostics not returning anything means the problem isn't totally apocalyptic.


I meant to play around with the RAM too, but I didn't get much time to work on it yesterday due to diagnostics and having to do other things. I actually have some spare RAM (two 512 chips that originally came with the machine) that I mean to swap in, just to see.

This is the quick and dirty method of checking your RAM integrity, and I heartily approve.

In all my years I've never actually had bad RAM, but everyone else says its very common and can produce weird and varying results. So this is a strong candidate.

Or is it Lupus?

EDIT:
I've been to that site, it's pretty good. But I think I've convinced myself to get the Dell, since my options are pretty much "spend $550 and replace his computer", "spend $900 and replace his computer well", or "spend $1100 and replace his computer exceptionally well".

I've always found $1000-$1200 is a nice price point for computers - usually nets you something good and stable, provided you are buying from a reputable company and not some flimsy prefab outfit like MDG, Dell or Apple.

[Rand_Shea]

If you didn't ground yourself properly before putting in new RAM, then you may have slightly fried some components to where they still work, but not the way they should.

Put both hands on the metal case surrounding the power supply before doing anything internal with a system, even if you're just blowing it out with air. Also never do anything while the system is plugged in. It is also important to research what is in your system prior to adding anything new, and making sure that the parts you order will work properly with it.

For big name brands, I go to the websites and act like I'm going to order new parts from them, look at the details for the components, then look for them on Newegg. I've gotten people who had crappy low-memory systems to get superb performance by doubling their system resources for less than $100, whereas manufacturers would've charged them around $150.

There's also the fact that things just wear out over time... particularly when they use electricity, collect dust internally, and produce heat. Nothing lasts forever, and older stuff gets slower just by virtue that newer stuff gets faster and faster. My dad would go to work and use a superfast $5000 government computer, then come home and bitch that the home PC was "too slow" and proceed to try and purge everything "useless" off it, resulting in slowing it down more because he'd screw up the registry and cause startup problems.

[Xaraphyne]

In all my years I've never actually had bad RAM, but everyone else says its very common and can produce weird and varying results. So this is a strong candidate.

Or is it Lupus

It's never lupus.


I've always found $1000-$1200 is a nice price point for computers - usually nets you something good and stable, provided you are buying from a reputable company and not some flimsy prefab outfit like MDG, Dell or Apple.

Hey, Dell's not that bad. They actually give you damn good parts as you can see. I dunno about the others, but I've had good experiences with Dell.


If you didn't ground yourself properly before putting in new RAM, then you may have slightly fried some components to where they still work, but not the way they should.

Put both hands on the metal case surrounding the power supply before doing anything internal with a system, even if you're just blowing it out with air. Also never do anything while the system is plugged in. It is also important to research what is in your system prior to adding anything new, and making sure that the parts you order will work properly with it.

I put in the memory literally months ago (after researching what memory it could use) and it's been working fine up until recently. Also, I'm aware of the necessity of unplugging computers before going inside them and making sure I'm grounded. You really could have ruled out the need to mention any of this, but thanks anyway, I'm sure you just mean to help even if that means not ruling out the possibility I made an obvious mistake.


For big name brands, I go to the websites and act like I'm going to order new parts from them, look at the details for the components, then look for them on Newegg. I've gotten people who had crappy low-memory systems to get superb performance by doubling their system resources for less than $100, whereas manufacturers would've charged them around $150.

There's also the fact that things just wear out over time... particularly when they use electricity, collect dust internally, and produce heat. Nothing lasts forever, and older stuff gets slower just by virtue that newer stuff gets faster and faster. My dad would go to work and use a superfast $5000 government computer, then come home and bitch that the home PC was "too slow" and proceed to try and purge everything "useless" off it, resulting in slowing it down more because he'd screw up the registry and cause startup problems.

I figure it is three years old and has had heavy daily use for that period of time, so I wouldn't be surprised if something crapped out. Probably nothing a reformatting wouldn't fix which will probably be what I'll end up doing after poking around a few more things (checking for swollen transistors, swapping the memory, and deleting the graphics card drivers).

[Rand_Shea]

Wow, way to be assumptive. I'll make a mental note to not answer your questions anymore, then, if you're going to get so offended over my suggestions. My apologies for hitting a nerve I wasn't aware was exposed.

[Xaraphyne]

Wow, way to be assumptive. I'll make a mental note to not answer your questions anymore, then, if you're going to get so offended over my suggestions. My apologies for hitting a nerve I wasn't aware was exposed.

I was actually being quite understanding about your point of view, but you seem to have assumed that I was offended, and moreso that I was sensitive on the subject. I don't know, no one else found it necessary to suggest I didn't know how to work with computers and explain to me how, if you've read through the rest of the thread. /shrug But like I said, I know it's just your nature to not rule out any possibility of people making errors, no matter how obvious they'd be. That's fine, I'm hardly bothered by it on a personal level, and if pointing that out to you hit a nerve I wasn't aware was exposed, I apologize.

[Karkarov]

Just for the record you can get the same pc as what dell is selling you for notably less. If you need financing to afford it you might want to consider trying to fix what you have and waiting for a better time.

I know you might not believe me and or agree but long term you really are much better off not buying a dell.

[Cabriel]

*watches the thread with renewed interest*

[Xaraphyne]

Just for the record you can get the same pc as what dell is selling you for notably less. If you need financing to afford it you might want to consider trying to fix what you have and waiting for a better time.

I know you might not believe me and or agree but long term you really are much better off not buying a dell.

I don't "need" the financing per se but it would help. Why not take advantage of no interest for a year?

As for getting it notably cheaper, I'm sure I could probably round up most the parts or very similar parts and get a hundred bucks or so off. But I'm pretty sure that'd be the best it could be, and then I'm taking responsibility for getting the wrong parts, putting them together wrong, and not having any warranty for the machine as a whole. IMO, but just my personal opinion, it's not worth it.


*watches the thread with renewed interest*

Sorry, I'm not going to let my thread get shitted up, so don't expect anything other than diplomacy from me.

[Taknar]

Sorry, I'm not going to let my thread get shitted up, so don't expect anything other than diplomacy from me.

But you could roll low! =D


I'm with Kark on the avoid Dell thing. There are many other smaller companies that will let you pick out what parts you want and put them together with a warranty for 20 or so bucks. I use Canada Computers, but they are obviously unavailable to you. I suggest asking around your local generic nerd hangout where people get their computers from in the area. You'll be saving cash, supporting local business, and getting an all-around better computer.

[Xaraphyne]

I'm with Kark on the avoid Dell thing. There are many other smaller companies that will let you pick out what parts you want and put them together with a warranty for 20 or so bucks. I use Canada Computers, but they are obviously unavailable to you. I suggest asking around your local generic nerd hangout where people get their computers from in the area. You'll be saving cash, supporting local business, and getting an all-around better computer.

The thing is, smaller companies typically can't get parts as cheap as the bigger companies can. From my experiences shopping around, Dell's pretty much the best place to go. It'd be totally awesome if someone could show me otherwise, but I don't think anyone's going to put more effort into this than me, haha.

[Karkarov]

*agrees with what Taknar said*

However....

I know of other canadian based pc manufacturers who will ship to the US, it isnt like they even have to cross an ocean. Never know unless you check!

[Xaraphyne]

Welp...

Checked for funky things on the motherboard, found none.

Swapped out the memory, no change.

Ran check disk, no change.

Uninstalled the NVIDIA GeForce 7300 LE drivers, no change.

I actually had to put the graphics card back in to uninstall the drivers because I realized I didn't know how to without it showing up in the device manager. >.> But yeah, made no difference.

Luckily, it looks like my external USB hard drive works in Safe Mode! So Fhen's going to transfer all his files off tonight and I'll reformat the hard dri..................

I'd left it at the black screen and it came up as I was typing this. Um, brb.


EDIT: Okay, so it looks like Kelven won this round. It came up after doing all the above, and when I reinstalled the graphics card drivers and restarted, bam, blue screen. Then it went back to the old lost signal after Windows XP loading screen/fine in Safe Mode deal. Re-uninstalled the graphics card drivers and it comes back up again. I'm not sure how just the drivers are causing the problem though, considering that they weren't even acting as just a passageway for the graphics card to submit an error; the system would bug out even with the graphics card removed, but the drivers still installed. Actually, I ought to re-test that now that I'm getting some results... If it is just the graphics card, I can get Fhen a new one cheap so he can at least get back on WoW.

EDIT EDIT: Retested by reinstalling the drivers and shutting down, taking out the graphics card, and starting back up again. Working just fine. So apparently it's not a problem with the hard drive+drivers, or the motherboard. I think it's just the graphics card, and some artifact was left over in the drivers that continued to cause a problem until they were uninstalled and reinstalled. Welp, guess I'll try to find a graphics card that fits in this motherboard that will work with a 305W power supply.

[Taknar]

Welp, guess I'll try to find a graphics card that fits in this motherboard that will work with a 305W power supply.

You won't, but it's not that much of a hassle to switch out the power supply too, and you can get a 500W one for 40 bucks easy (Canadian opinion here, so your cash millage may vary). So long as you have a screwdriver (Not the Nina kind mind you), know how to twist things to come on and off, and have the intuition of a trained monkey you'll be fine. So yeah... just don't let Fhen do the work himself =D

[Xaraphyne]

You won't, but it's not that much of a hassle to switch out the power supply too, and you can get a 500W one for 40 bucks easy (Canadian opinion here, so your cash millage may vary). So long as you have a screwdriver (Not the Nina kind mind you), know how to twist things to come on and off, and have the intuition of a trained monkey you'll be fine. So yeah... just don't let Fhen do the work himself =D

Fhen pretty much just watches with a bewildered look whenever I go inside the computer, haha.

I know how to replace power supplies actually, so I should be all right. :P Unfortunately when I discovered the computer's current one sucked awhile back, I went shopping for another and found prices ranging closer to $90. I looked at Best Buy and on Newegg if I recall correctly.

I'm sure I can find a graphics card that will work with its 305W power supply though, I mean the old one did, and if nothing else I can probably find a refurbished version of the same card somewhere. It'll definitely end up being a card that's a few years old is all.

[Karkarov]

Let me lend you a hand...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817152028

That should fit the bill. It is only 530 but your current pc should be fine with that and it is only 55 dollars, not to mention modular cables. Wouldnt SLI with it but then you arent doing sli right now.

[Xaraphyne]

That's not bad. I think my memory was off and that was about the price range I had seen. But my issue before and the thing I'm still debating over is, I don't know if I want to drop $50 on a power supply then another $100-$150 or more on a good video card, and end up spending that much money on a machine three years old with a 2.0GHz processor that's already had one part crap out. @_@

Maybe though... I'll have to think about it. Right now I've also been looking at video cards that fit a 305W power supply; looks like I could get a Radeon HD 3450 512MB or an nVidia GeForce 8400 GS 512MB, which would both be a pretty damn nice upgrade from what he had, at about $50 each. Only problem is finding someplace in town I can drive to and pick one up because I'm impatient. There's a Best Buy and I know of two hole-in-the-wall computer places...

[Gorvena]

http://www.microcenter.com/at_the_stores/fairfax.html

Is that very close? They have an order-online/pick-up in store option.

[Xaraphyne]

It's a bit of a hike from here to Fairfax, but it looks like a very nice store.

I actually went to one of the hole-in-the-wall places after leaving work early (had a dentist appointment) and found a Radeon 4350 512MB for $45. Fhen appears to be up and running again, yay! I actually had to return the nVidia 8400 256MB I think it was that I first got because it stuck out too far and didn't fit in the space that we had in the case.

[Fhenrir]

... didn't fit in the space that we had in the case.

It rhymes, so you know she means business.

[Gorvena]

Rhyming is srsbsns.