DKs vs. Cooldown-addicted Paladins

[Glassclaw]

I'm willing to bring up the only thing I really fear. Besides Mages that love to reflect my frost spells back at me.

Paladins who use Bubble, heal to full, then Lay of Hands. All against me by myself.

I recently respeced to stand a better chance against said cooldown-happy paladins (About 90% of them; last night I managed to fight one that didn't use LoH. Or bubble, at one point. I think he intended not to), but I'm still not sure what could be done, if anything, to combat them. Having to kill someone three times is quite significant.

Bubble not only ignores Silence, it dispels it. So I can't strangulate in hopes of stopping their bubble. And Lay on Hands may be considered a spell, but usually I used the silence before then to try to slow down their attacks.

I just can't outlast them. So, anyone who may know...what's the best hope for a DK who happens to be fighting against someone who's REALLY afraid of dying? Because I know I can beat most pallies...just not three times in one setting.

[Kaliera]

Stagger your own cooldowns. Ret Paladins have two weaknesses that are very easy to exploit as a Death Knight.

1) Much of their damage is magical.

2) Much of their burst comes during stuns.

Your goal when fighting a paladin is to mitigate as much damage as you can beween bubble and LoH. Start off light, however, as burning everything you've got will only lead to running dry when you least need it. Typically, I will approach a paladin with Bone Shield up. With an opening Icy Touch, I will use the runic power to pop Anti-Magic Shell. Doing so preemptively will prevent the paladin from using HoJ and will soak up his magical damage at the same time. If he ever manages to land a HoJ after this, gnaw him during it. At worst, you will waste one of his GCDs on Hand of Freedom, which means less incoming damage for you and less time to heal for him. Your next runic power dump should be summoning a Gargoyle, as you will be moving away from the paladin as soon as it bubbles.

Keep your RP high and bring his health low. When he bubbles, immediately strafe as far away as you can. If you're unholy specced (you should be), you will be running just as fast as he's able to, but he has to cast heals during this time. If he repentances you, trinket it. It's very important to get a leg up at this point. For NEs, you can make this portion even easier on yourself by eating and shadowmelding as soon as you get a decent distance away.

Round two starts once he's been healed back up to full. This time, you bring out the big guns. Depending on when you launched your gargoyle, you may still have a few seconds left of strikes hitting him. If not, it's not a big deal. If you trinketed a repentance during the bubble, open with Icebound Fortitude. From here, reapply diseases and go full stop. Create your death runes and dump your UF runes by whatever means you decide to. Use Empower Rune Weapon for another rune refresh and hammer him with 3 straight dual rune abilities, or 6 Icy Touches if you happen to be shadowfrost. This -will- pressure the paladin. Get him towards the ~25% range and slam him with a strangulate. Sure he can bubble while strangulated, but he sure as hell can't cast LoH, or most of his damage abilities for that matter.

Always keep your pet in mind as well. Watch his stun timer, and use it to your advantage. It's cooldown is just long enough to prevent it from applying diminishing returns on itself. If you get into a dangerous position, remember to Death Pact your ghoul for a sizable heal on yourself, and raise it right back up. Don't be afraid to launch cooldowns at a class that's abusing cooldowns.

[Glassclaw]

That's usually what I do. Or I start with Icebound Fortitude and absorb HoJ with that.

I think this new spec of mine could take on a paladin that gets cooldown happy, though. At least a bit easier than the other one.

I'll try some of those things, though! Thank you.

[Kaliera]

Happy to help. :) The most important thing to remember is just to play it by ear and be proactive. So many players fight with the idea in mind of what to do when the other uses X ability. If you go in thinking about how you will -force- the other to use X ability, it becomes much easier to anticipate and counter said actions. Just keep at it, Earthmother knows I support anyone willing to weed out the BE ret population. :D

[Yatokth]

Kaliera knows what he's talking 'bout, on a DK it's basically just stagger stuff and force things (DKs can offensively control VERY well) to outlast them via self-heals and all that stuff, because the damage you can put out is still respectable.

Different on a warrior, it's sort of a bum-rush to hope you make them bubble before you have to turtle, but then again that's sort of like everything else... Damn. Talking about PvP makes me want to play again.

And here I shall end my derailing.

[Skaadvik]

I'm pretty certain bubble can't be used during silence. You can't silence a Paladin during bubble, but you can prevent it for the duration of your silence. A good Paladin will know that and bubble before it's too late, though.

[Glassclaw]

I'm pretty certain bubble can't be used during silence. You can't silence a Paladin during bubble, but you can prevent it for the duration of your silence. A good Paladin will know that and bubble before it's too late, though.

Not true. I used Strangulate on a Paladin, and a second later he puts up a bubble, instantly dispelling the silence effect.

Interrupts, however, are a different story. If I interrupt a Holy spell, then they wouldn't be able to Bubble until the interrupt effect is gone.

[Swerto]

Not true. I used Strangulate on a Paladin, and a second later he puts up a bubble, instantly dispelling the silence effect.

Interrupts, however, are a different story. If I interrupt a Holy spell, then they wouldn't be able to Bubble until the interrupt effect is gone.
Wrong, bubble's aren't in the holy tree so dispelling heals does not affect it.


That's like trying to stop a mages fire spell by dispelling their arcane missiles.

[Glassclaw]

Not really...bitching. I was asking for suggestions how to better combat it. No need for angry posts.

And I thought it did. Guess they just refused to bubble from it then. -Shrug-

[Resinous]

Wrong, bubble's aren't in the holy tree so dispelling heals does not affect it.


That's like trying to stop a mages fire spell by dispelling their arcane missiles.


If a countspell hits you while casting a spell it locks out that school for 8 seconds, that includes bubble because paladins only school of magic is holy. If you simply silence the paladin without locking up a school it won't stop a bubble, but catch a holy spell and it locks out the bubble.

Works the same way for mages, you can silence a mage and the mage can still use ice block, but if you counter the frost school it actually locks out ice block as well.

[Glassclaw]

I was think that was the case. I was kinda taken aback when he said that it wasn't right. I never played a Paladin, but I'm fairly sure all they do is throw Holy stuff around.

Now, the better question is what kind of Paladin would allow that to happen. XD

Thanks for all the suggestions as well. Seems I have to modify my playing style a bit more to take them on more efficiently. Well, not really paladins per se, but the Three Lives pallies. >_>

[Skaadvik]

it's worth mentioning that bubble is a 5 minute cooldown and lay on hands is a 20 minute. It's not like we always have them.

and I'm still pretty certain that silence will keep a paladin from bubbling. I can't log on at the moment to test it out for sure... you'd have to find a paladin willing to let you mess with him and find out for sure yourself.

but yeah. it's not like we have a bubble every time we need it.

[Glassclaw]

Oh, I understand that. It's just that the Paladins who use them at the moment usually don't stick around for a rematch. >_>

Like I said though. This isn't a whining thread or "QQ" thread. It's trying to find better tactics to dealing with them. It's always a good thing then you're able to counter something that overwhelms you at first.

...Well, not really overwhelm, but outlast. XD And I can guarantee that SIlence doesn't work for Bubble. >_< It's annoying. I dunno why it's not counted as a spell in that case. Maybe it's because Strangulate does damage? I have no idea.

[Resinous]

Oh, I understand that. It's just that the Paladins who use them at the moment usually don't stick around for a rematch. >_>

Like I said though. This isn't a whining thread or "QQ" thread. It's trying to find better tactics to dealing with them. It's always a good thing then you're able to counter something that overwhelms you at first.

...Well, not really overwhelm, but outlast. XD And I can guarantee that SIlence doesn't work for Bubble. >_< It's annoying. I dunno why it's not counted as a spell in that case. Maybe it's because Strangulate does damage? I have no idea.

It works the same way off all silence mechanics, just like Ice block like I said. I play both mage and paladin and on both classes I've used bubble and Ice block just for the purpose of clearing a silence effect on me in order to get off a critical spell, the only way to silence either spell is to counter its supporting school with a silencing spell or ability.

[Fhenrir]

Speaking as a paladin with a lot of experience, I can confirm that Strangulate does not prevent bubble, and Mind Freezing the Holy tree does prevent bubble for the duration of the interrupt.

[Skaadvik]

well I was wrong on that count, then. I must have confused strangulate with an interrupt. I don't know DKs very well, so I guess I've been assuming they're one and the same like a CS.

[Qabian]

Counterspell's wicked that way, in that its actual effect is an interrupt/school lockout, but it can be improved to be a Silence in addition, so it's both. I believe Strangulate functions like the actual spell Silence which does not interrupt/school lockout, so the Ice Block/bubble spells can get through them.

[Kaliera]

Counterspell's wicked that way, in that its actual effect is an interrupt/school lockout, but it can be improved to be a Silence in addition, so it's both. I believe Strangulate functions like the actual spell Silence which does not interrupt/school lockout, so the Ice Block/bubble spells can get through them.

This is exactly right.

As an aside, strangulate can even be cleansed if another magic dispelling class is around to help you out, since the silence is a magical effect.

[Naheal]

Speaking as a paladin with a lot of experience, I can confirm that Strangulate does not prevent bubble, and Mind Freezing the Holy tree does prevent bubble for the duration of the interrupt.

No silence will ever stop a bubble.

[Fhenrir]

No silence will ever stop a bubble.

Correct, no silence will stop a bubble. An interrupt will, and I've seen it happen countless times.

[Abric]

Remember you can always get back to the paladin, in case you are all doing the same quests/events.

You may not be able to beat him three times in a row, but snagging him while that Lay on Hands is on cooldown will take away a good tool.

Unless you are in a battleground. If that's the case, throw a rogue or warrior at him - so they blow their load on those guys. I've had a few Death Knights do that to me. They'll let the Paladin stun me (the rogue) and let him blow a few of his abilities on me before pulling him and starting their ball of fun.

When in doubt, Sun Tzu him!

[Thelsuo]

I have had the most success against pallies as 0/19/52 Glass. The trick with the CD addicted pallies that you mention is to interupt the initial burst. Most lead off with the stun+faceroll. Honestly I open up (Once they are in melee) with a strangulate. Build up RP then blow AMS. If they get a stun off, trinket+IBF. Sac your ghoul early, usually when you're at 60-70% HP as unholy the ghoul will be up again shortly.

My primary attack against Ret pallies is Deathstrike, this keeps me topped up with HP while I build RP for the gargoyle.

At this point in the fight odds are they've bubbled. When they do run away and bandage/eat if you can.

Keep up the deeps and blow gargoyle+ERW (once 2 diseases are up.) Then burst them down with Scourge Strikes.

That's about what I do as unholy. (AMZ is a good tool for this fight specifically, but I avoid it for the majority of PVP.)

All this is in Frost presence.

As for Frost spec, it's a burst war. I'd be in Blood presence to add in taking them out fast. Use Deathchil when Cinderglacier procs and Obliterate/Frost strike em to get a huge lead in. Same things apply here that do in the unholy spec fight. When they stun you, trinket out and blow Hungering cold, to either force a trinket or bubble, use it on each CD. Ghoul sac etc.

As for blood spec, I have no experience.

I hope some of this helps mate, Ret pallies in good gear are definitly a challenge for us.

[lolwat]

lol wat