Retribution and expertise

[Kained]

In pvp is it valuable?

I notice a drastic change with 4.80% hit and 19 expertise (-4.30% dodge)

I'm comparasin to just facerolling with a crap ton of Str gems

Could expertise be the solution to dealing with deathknights, feral Druids, and rogues? All classes that gove ret issues due to thier dodge and parry medigation.

I got no idea give some opinion.

Disscuss.

[Okhu]

I'd say attempting to stack it instead of Strength / Stam/ Resil / normal ret stats for pvp/ would likely not be the best choice, I mean if its on the gear your have then just go with it.. but don't go out of your way to hunt down Expertise / Gem for it. As the gem slots could be used for more useful stats.

[Vales]

I've always been curious. If you catch someone from behind in PvP, are they still able to dodge? I know mobs in PvE do, and I swear I remember seeing a backstab dodged on my rogue, but according to blizzards own tooltips, you cannot dodge attacks behind you. Then again, I've seen backstabs parried as well. o.O

If placement can eliminate one of these things, you're looking at a better way to knock off that mitgation. Repentance is really only useful in 1v1 situations where you can control DoTs and attacks from other sources, but HoJ and getting behind them (stepping through them) should work ok.

[Kained]

Ret palys need To get out of the dependence of hoj or repetence

I'm willing to give up 45 sec hojs for hit or expertise on our gear some stable hit rateimg is what we lack.

[Yatokth]

If Expertise gave you more value per point, it would be worth it.

As it is, things like Jawbone or Inevitable Defeat that have a crapload of expertise only amount to like.. 7 expertise rating. If you gem it instead of str, you'll be losing like.. 140-180 AP for something like a total of (if you have a weap with expertise) -5.00% chance to be dodged/parried.

The reason feral druids/rogues/DKs/hunters often dodge or parry your stuff isn't because their innate avoidance is THAT high (ferals and rogues have a bit, but it's not that great) but it's because they use cooldowns. DKs - unbreakable armor, lichborne, or blade barrier is up. Rogues - evasion. Feral Druids - not sure, I think they have an equivalent. Hunters - Detterence, Aspect of the Monkey/Dragonhawk, though that's not a CD.

I suppose it could be useful as I'm not in a position to really get screwed by them (except when rend or hamstring gets dodged/parried, that just eats a GCD I need to start doing damage) because I can Overpower from dodges, and in 3.1, with the glyph, from parries too.

If you're not sure, try it. Hell, you encouraged me to try Armor Pen, and I stumbled across a really good strategy.

[Lailinarel]

I've always been curious. If you catch someone from behind in PvP, are they still able to dodge? I know mobs in PvE do, and I swear I remember seeing a backstab dodged on my rogue, but according to blizzards own tooltips, you cannot dodge attacks behind you. Then again, I've seen backstabs parried as well. o.O


That's because you can backstab from the sides and that means dodges parries and blocks can all happen.
_____________________________________

My thought on this... in average pvp gear, stacking agility in bc my rogue had about 30% dodge and 5% parry. Now, obviously with evasions +50% dodge, you're not gonna land many hits no matter how much expertise you've got. However, here's my thought. At 5% reduction to my dodge and parry you've completely negated 10% of my 35% avoidance without stacking too much expertise. Is it worth trying to get retarded amounts of it? Probably not cause after that you're working at 1% per 1% cause there's only dodge to handle.

I haven't played my rogue to 80 and don't know what average avoidance is for them at this point, but if it's anything like at 70, 5% or so is probably your sweet spot. Don't forget that most classes have talents that can buff their dodge / parry by an easy 5% as well though not everyone picks them up. I also agree that relying on your HoJ to land a hit normally is a bad strategy as it's worth saving it for once they pop that evasion or whatever situation might come up. (I don't need to tell you how to pally I thinks... hehe)

My theory crafting perspective: Is it bad to have expertise? Definitely not. You're gimping yourself if you get too much though, aim for somewhere between 5-10 tops and that'll probably be optimal. I imagine the jawbone + human mace spec is probably a pretty good start.


It could also probably not hurt to take what class you're fighting into consideration (Granted you can't change gear in an arena), DK's have +15% (5% dodge and 10% parry from blade barrier) overall avoidance from talents as well additional parry from strength, rogues have 5% parry and... wow I can't remember if there's still a 5% dodge talent for rogues... warriors can pick up 5% parry in arms and 5% dodge in prot, so on so forth... Perhaps if you find that their avoidance is your biggest issue when that's what you're fighting a lot of, then you can have spare gear with extra expertise on hand and swap it in ahead of time.

If there's one thing I've learned from prot pvp, (Before it was hax) it's that it isn't always about blowing your enemies face off with the biggest numbers imaginable, if you can outplay them in a long fight it works just as well (or better) some times to slowly eat away at them... (Not that I would imagine an ap loss would hurt you too terribly badly as a ret pally seeing as how the spec isn't really lacking in damage output right now.)

[Kained]

Eh we will see oh and I got my weapon today yat :d

[Kained]

On my human I have jawbone+ ruth that's a good total of 19 on kained I'd imagine it wouldbe harder...


I'm trying to expand ret in tO new fields and sorry if I'm late with responses i'm at work LOL trying to mix some concrete >->0

[Zarja]

I've always been curious. If you catch someone from behind in PvP, are they still able to dodge? I know mobs in PvE do, and I swear I remember seeing a backstab dodged on my rogue, but according to blizzards own tooltips, you cannot dodge attacks behind you. Then again, I've seen backstabs parried as well. o.O

If placement can eliminate one of these things, you're looking at a better way to knock off that mitgation. Repentance is really only useful in 1v1 situations where you can control DoTs and attacks from other sources, but HoJ and getting behind them (stepping through them) should work ok. QUOTE]

Guess you never had that Blizzard tip ...

"Creatures can dodge attacks from behind. Both creatures and players can't parry attacks from behind."

With that said I think it's basically telling you that players can't dodge attacks from behind or it would have said something like this:

"Both creatures and players can dodge attacks from behind. Both creatures and players can't parry attacks from behind."

[Kained]

They just need to make back stab a 100% hit chance and make it so it's only useable behind targets problemo solved?

[Skaadvik]

I'm not the best ret paladin, but I'll weigh in on this for sure. I don't have any pvp gear for ret, I just go into BGs in my PvE hit rating and expertise gear, and I have to say it's pretty noticeable having all that hit and expertise. My friend (a feral druid) and I were talking about this last night. Resilience is still better, obviously, and I don't think I'd gem for either for PvP (MAYBE some str/hit gems or str/expertise gems, MAYBE), but stacking epixx with expertise and/or hit seems like a pretty solid idea to me based on my experiences with it.

[nandien]

I would personally not bother with expertise aside from the incidental amounts you get from gear. If you're fighting something like a rogue or feral druid (which don't have an evasion equivalent, by the way), they're already going to dodge ~25% of the attacks or so (depending on gear). You can cut down on that some, but you're not going to get very low.

If you're fighting a caster, expertise past one or two percent just seems wasted to me. Either way, stacking expertise will gimp your other stats.

Getting 5% hit is always good though, as missing something crucial (generally pounce in my case) sucks.

[Fhenrir]

I skimmed a bit of this topic admittedly, but my personal opinion is that it's too expensive itemization to be worth using over other stats (crit, hit, stam, strength). It's a good thought, but most of the classes that would cause these mitigation issues have so much of the stat when it's problematic that it probably wouldn't make a noticeable difference anyway, and then you're missing all those other delicious stats.


Then again, go Holy and you won't need expertise. Problem solved! :D

[Bahlmoral]

Then again, go Holy and you won't need expertise. Problem solved! :D

The problem with that Fhen is you have to convince 99% of Belf Paladin players there's trees beyond Retribution.

[Yatokth]

The problem with that Fhen is you have to convince 99% of Belf Paladin players there's trees beyond Retribution.

Actually Holy is the FotM of the xpac at the moment.

UNTIL IT GETS NERFED IN 3.1!!

...

TO THE GROUND, BABY!

[Bahlmoral]

Actually Holy is the FotM of the xpac at the moment.

UNTIL IT GETS NERFED IN 3.1!!

...

TO THE GROUND, BABY!

Seems I heard this somewhere before...

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Will history tell us it'll be the rise of Druid healers in PvP again?

I think real men should PvP as Prot.

[Kyrion]

A little expertise will benefit a lot I think. Getting divine storm or crusader strike dodged/parried sucks ass.

[Tiraline]

Actually Holy is the FotM of the xpac at the moment.

UNTIL IT GETS NERFED IN 3.1!!

...

TO THE GROUND, BABY!

Just for healing purposes, or do shockadins catch the short end of it as well?

[Roth'rili]

I am not sure of the nerf to holy to me I don't mind a extra 10 to 20% chance to crit on top of my already near 40% chance to crit with Holy light. The only nerf pallies are getting in general is blizzard giving the most popular PvP class the ability to pop a paladin's ultimate defense. I think its retarded but its survivable, some warriors I never really have to worry about bubbling against and as long as it remains on a 5 minute cooldown I could careless. Priests are still the bane of any pally.

[Kained]

Guys. expertise and red palys checks out it helps a crapton.

[Yatokth]

I am not sure of the nerf to holy to me I don't mind a extra 10 to 20% chance to crit on top of my already near 40% chance to crit with Holy light. The only nerf pallies are getting in general is blizzard giving the most popular PvP class the ability to pop a paladin's ultimate defense. I think its retarded but its survivable, some warriors I never really have to worry about bubbling against and as long as it remains on a 5 minute cooldown I could careless. Priests are still the bane of any pally.

lol

...

lol

What game have you been playing?

[Agnarr]

I think real men should PvP as Prot.
I do.

[Fhenrir]

Guys. expertise and red palys checks out it helps a crapton.

A post like this is generally more useful with evidence, research, or a source. Something.

Got any links or quotes or anything?

[Kained]

A post like this is generally more useful with evidence, research, or a source. Something.

Got any links or quotes or anything?

I got pvp footage of me before Expertise and me now with expertise if that helps.

[Lailinarel]

lol

...

lol

What game have you been playing?

/signed. The rules have changed a lot since BC, and considering a rogue can dismantle a warrior, removing their 'ultimate defense' of shield wall, it isn't that bad that we'll be able to dump an ass ton of rage into breaking one invulnerability every five minutes. Specially when you consider that it really only affects the warrior classes two strongest counters, Paladins, (If you say that paladins don't kick the crap out of warriors I'm going to facepalm and not bother replying) and mages (Once again assuming a competent pvp specced mage...) it's actually kinda nice.

And prot pvp is fun as hell, though it's a blast to change it up now and then. I prot pvped my way into 600 resil and now I'm messing around as fury on the grind to Justicar.

And back on topic, how much expertise do you have / when did you start to see a difference? I know that there is nothing quite as infuriating as seeing a mage dodge a shield bash/pummel and get off the game winning shot, so even on clothies it can't hurt to have a little. Once again human racial definitely comes in handy for this. (I need to get decent weapons for pvp. >.<)

[Cpike]

We need to wait for 3.1 or 3.2 to find what the class All-stars are...Or 3.1. something midway drastic. Right now it's up in the air. This is all going by Burning Crusade logic, which really..not too off the mark to base something about this.

Oh, as for expertise..if it's good, I better build up on it some more! I'm not falling for that Holy spec miserable kick down after first season of an expansion junk, need to hit things!

[Kredorian]

Well, speaking from a pretty geared PvE ret paladins point of view.... I am close to expertise capped and actually over hit capped atm and rogues, DK's, and feral druids are all pretty easy to kill... I actually do better with my PvE gear than my PvP gear generally, just cause I stomp face... and the 700 resil and 4k extra HP arent needed... once its dead, it doesnt hit you

[Kredorian]

B/C Crusader strike, Divine Storm and your melee ( therefore chance of seal to proc for PvP) are all physical expertise is obv very important, you get dodged blocked or parried = 0 damage and all that can be dodge blocked and parried

[Kredorian]

Armory - Cavanaugh - Staghelm

Be twisting nether again soon enough Kained... ;-)

[Fhenrir]

I actually do better with my PvE gear than my PvP gear generally, just cause I stomp face...

Where and in what conditions do you do better? If it's in BGs, what sorts of healbots are factored in? If arenas, what comps do you run and how effective have you been?


Also, modhat mode, don't triple post. You could use the edit button, or make sure you've said what you want to before posting. 3 posts in a row in 6 minutes is silly.

[Kredorian]

In all conditions... i dont have healbots when I do BG's I pug, and in arena, if its me and a healer the other teams go after the healer so PvP gear just limits dmg, at least in 2's

In 3's and 5's the PvP gear is better IF you are the focus target, the main thing I notice is that 99% of the time the Ret pally isnt the focus in any arena, ty bubble, and so PvP gear seems to be worse in most conditions imo, obv for holy its a totally diff story, but as for ret, b/c the stats are so much greater, and the hit and expertise gains are huge against any avoidance class ( DK's being over rep'd) I just find it more useful.

lol although dont count now b/c I am on a team with a all PvE healer and its a holy priest... helping RL buddy get pts


ty modhat mode, Ill try not to post with after drinking ;-)

[Lailinarel]

B/C Crusader strike, Divine Storm and your melee ( therefore chance of seal to proc for PvP) are all physical expertise is obv very important, you get dodged blocked or parried = 0 damage and all that can be dodge blocked and parried


While this is true, they changed it so that Elemental damage can be blocked as of 3.0, whereas an elemental melee attack could always be parried or dodged even before this. I know that the seal procs from SoC actually had to be dodged / parried separately from the initial attack that procced it, though I don't know if this is still the case.

[Kredorian]

HMmm I was under the impression if you don't hit with the weapon, you don't hit with SoC... and I havent noticed a change when I use it in BG's or the few bosses I use it for (Loetheb and 3d Sarth) But I don't play that close attention all the time... anybody know for sure?

[Rhatizin]

HMmm I was under the impression if you don't hit with the weapon, you don't hit with SoC... and I havent noticed a change when I use it in BG's or the few bosses I use it for (Loetheb and 3d Sarth) But I don't play that close attention all the time... anybody know for sure?


SoC doesn't proc off hits, but I really don't know if a miss/dodge/parry off one of you're weapon swings would influence a SoC proc or not. From what I did read though its considered a separate attack and can be dodged/parried or miss on its own, so it would make sense that someone could dodge your weapon attack and then be hit by your SoC or visa versa. Heres some reading on it, I don't feel like reading it all and maybe theres an answer in there for ya.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Seal_of_Command

[Kredorian]

What I got from that is, it can proc if the normal attack missed, however, the seal itself can be dodged blocked or parried and is a melee attack that does holy dmg, as you said.

I think that also makes hit / expertise a bit more important rather than less, just imo :-)

[Skaadvik]

I feel pretty similar to Cavanaugh on this. I don't arena seriously, but as far as BGs go, heals or no, I never really find myself wishing I had more than 53 resil, and having hit and expertise is awesome.

[Kredorian]

Yeah... I got wrecking ball, in a PuG, no healbot, with 0 res... as an example. If I do get focused I bubble, burst is still not mitigated enough by resil imo... if its 2 v 1 your prob dead anyways if they are any good.... I dont think the extra second makes a bit of diff going one way ( resil) or the other ( PvE and extra dmg gear). I think it flat out depends on what gear is the best. ( Aka epic always wins over blues, and Ilvl 213 always wins over ilvl 200, The only real difference maybe is deadly gear would make the change worthwile, but thats it.. at least in my case)

Also, when in the arena, in 2's or 3's or even 5's for that matter how often is the ret paladin the focus target? lol I would say not often at all. So imo its a not brainer to sacrifice resil for more hit/expertise... it helps a TON... and keep in mind the less you get dodged or parried the less chance the DK's can even use their extra attack.... just my two cents.

[Lailinarel]

I feel pretty similar to Cavanaugh on this. I don't arena seriously, but as far as BGs go, heals or no, I never really find myself wishing I had more than 53 resil, and having hit and expertise is awesome.

Ya know, I notice that you have 53 written there, but your sig says you have about 530... Pretty significant typo.

And I'll agree that for bg's you can get by with little to no resil, but I feel like I should point out that this kinda says more about the paladin class than it does about the mechanics of Resilience as a stat. I mean, I've got a screen shot of a 6k judgment of blood crit, that doesn't sound too terrible till you realize I've got 17% crit reduction and was in defensive stance for another 10% damage mitigation... The fact that a paladin can use a non mitigatable attack (Can't be blocked parried dodged and isn't a spell that can be reflected) that crits for one third of my hp in my pvp gear while running around in pve gear, but when I finally can hit him back he has a shit ton of defensive abilities kinda gives the paladin class a strong edge over anyone in unorganized pvp.

[Fhenrir]

Ya know, I notice that you have 53 written there, but your sig says you have about 530... Pretty significant typo.

Those appear to be holy stats, whereas he's talking about a ret set.

[Heidenreich]

I've got a screen shot of a 6k judgment of blood crit, that doesn't sound too terrible till you realize I've got 17% crit reduction and was in defensive stance for another 10% damage mitigation.

6k Judgment of Blood is kinda weak honestly. My crits are in the 9 to 11k range. :p Just sayin >.>

[Kredorian]

My point is that really ret isnt focused on in arena most of the time.... depending on the comp I think you can def get away with max dps and not bother worrying about resil... I think the other stats you gain with PvE gear outweigh the resil etc... esp if you have top end PvE gear and dont have full deadly type PvP gear.


Also, if you are the focus target you still have bubble which mitigates the need for resil atm... yes it can be dispelled and will be more vunerable later but its still buys enough time to mitigate resil.


Also I agree the paladin has an advantage in a lot of cases, esp ret, bubble initially made up for the underpowered DPS that ret had.... however now that the DPS edge is more balanced things like bubble seem to be OP etc... which is a whole other issue in itself... to be honest Id like them to nerf ret so its not as keyboard faceroll as it is now and is more of a challenge.

Imo Paladins shouldnt have the DPS but should keep the utility of auras replenishment etc but thats a different argument entirely. :-)

[Skaadvik]

Ya know, I notice that you have 53 written there, but your sig says you have about 530... Pretty significant typo.

My holy set has pretty respectable resil because I need it as a healer. I don't play as holy much anymore though. Not sure why it refuses to change.

As to your comments on Paladins, I'm sure you're at least partially right. I'm really honestly not that great at Ret, it's just really easy to be proficient at (which makes bad ret paladins even more of a wonder). Again I have to agree with Cavanaugh on the subject of Paladins.

The changes in the next patch look to me like they're taking away some of the gnarly ridiculous burst and adding a little more consistent damage to Ret overall, which is something I look forward to and is definitely needed.

One other thing, in response to that huge crit you got on you, was the Paladin using Avenging Wrath/any other CDs? In my mediocre gear I easily get 10k SotM crits when I use AW and my trinket. Not sure what he thought he was doing using SotM in PvP, though. I blow myself up every time I try it. Also, Heid as you can see is an unholy beast.

[Kredorian]

/agree

Heid is def an unholy beast

[Fhenrir]

Let's stay on topic instead of the thread turning into an ego-stroking fest, shall we?

On the topic of SotM/SoB in PvP, I've actually seen most top end arena paladins using it over CoC. I don't have a lot of experience playing ret in arenas, but I'm willing to assume that it's because the extra damage output outweighs the damage you do to yourself in a ret/healer makeup, along with the ability to bubble in an emergency.

I could of course be wrong, so feel free to correct me otherwise, but that's why I'd consider it personally.

[Heidenreich]

Long as you have a competent healer with you and not someone who stares out a window cause a bird just flew by. SotM/SoB will blow away SoC damage in PvP. My typical SotM Judgment Crit is between 9k and 11k, my typical SoC Judgment crit is between 5k to 7k (going off of my PvE Gear).

After the changes in 3.1, there will be honestly no reason at all to spec into Seal of Casino as it will be 100% useless in both PvE and PvP. The recoil from Martyr/Blood is a joke now that Spiritual Atonement was removed from a baseline ability.

THAT'S RIGHT!!! I WILL BE KILLING MYSELF TO KILL YOU!!! CAUSE THAT'S HOW I ROLL!!!

I don't even know what the topic is though, so I should probably just shut-up now. >.>

OH AND FHEN! Next time I am on my bike, we need to find away pass this whole Alliance/Horde thing and you need to hop in the side cart. How sweet would it be seeing a Draenei and Tauren rollin out together. :p

[Kredorian]

IF you roll with a healer this is true, although I still prefer a frost mage in 2's... so I still use SoC when I am with a dual DPS team, but yeah, with a healer SotM is obv superior although you may have to switch between them depends on the situation and what you face, I think you need to have both available. Also depends on what types of teams you face... lots of variation which is why I keep it open.

[Kaliera]

On the topic of SotM/SoB in PvP, I've actually seen most top end arena paladins using it over CoC. I don't have a lot of experience playing ret in arenas, but I'm willing to assume that it's because the extra damage output outweighs the damage you do to yourself in a ret/healer makeup, along with the ability to bubble in an emergency.

That's the general tactic as I understand it. The most popular Ret setup at high end ratings is Ret Pally / Resto Shaman due to how well the two classes compliment one another. The paladin puts hefty pressure on the opposing side, letting his shaman run with Water Shield up, which gives the Ret free access to Earth Shield. Riptide tends to be more than enough to handle SoB recoil, and any quick swap to capitalize on the seal's use is padded by ES's existance.

It's a pretty gross setup that will be even more powerful come 3.1. I imagine Ret/Rest is going to be much more popular, assuming more shamans end up grinding up to max level instead of collecting dust. Hoy, seven more levels to go. :/

[Kained]

Let's stay on topic instead of the thread turning into an ego-stroking fest, shall we?

On the topic of SotM/SoB in PvP, I've actually seen most top end arena paladins using it over CoC. I don't have a lot of experience playing ret in arenas, but I'm willing to assume that it's because the extra damage output outweighs the damage you do to yourself in a ret/healer makeup, along with the ability to bubble in an emergency.

I could of course be wrong, so feel free to correct me otherwise, but that's why I'd consider it personally.

Seal of Casino Vs. Seal of Bash.

Seal of command: Stable damage great for combo shots using HoJ and rep to hold down and silence targets and prevent cast a solid tool for 1v1 use or multi while along or dealing with another dps.

Seal of Blood/Martyr: Ridiculas unholy(lol) Damage thats capable of sometimes reducing players below 50% in just one seal use due to It's high judgment damage ( IF CRITED). Either way your taking a roll of the dice using this seal It's alot more RNG based and alot more likely to kill someone under 30% Regardless. It's come down that this is the more effective seal in arena
5v5 3v3 and in 2v2 when using a healer otherwise if your running a double DPS comp in 2's Your going to want to roll Seal of Command for the stable damage and combo's.



The point in this is For Seal of blood Expertise is laughable but like other ret palys who stayed legit and didn't base themselfs off RNG shots like me Expertise is a great gift for Seal of commands proc.

[Fhenrir]

The point in this is For Seal of blood Expertise is laughable but like other ret palys who stayed legit and didn't base themselfs off RNG shots like me Expertise is a great gift for Seal of commands proc.

Can you clarify what this sentence means? You're all over the place with no punctuation, I can't make sense of it.

[Leyujin]

He means: Expertise is terrible for Seal of Blood, but for those Ret Pallys who are legitimate players that avoid RNG abilities, expertise is wonderful for Seal of Command.

[Fhenrir]

That's kind of what I thought, but it doesn't make any sense. Seal of Command is far more RNG-based than Blood is.

[Kredorian]

Well I think maybe he means the garunteed type of crit off a stunned target maybe???

[Resinous]

Well I think maybe he means the garunteed type of crit off a stunned target maybe???

In terms of controlled critical striking, seal of blood is more RNG than Seal of command. With seal of command the paladin knows when hes going do his big hit combo involving the judgment crit, although expertise shouldn't have anything to do with that, besides helping to ensure that the weapon strike, seal proc if it occured, CS and DS all hit to make the full combo. But as far as I know expertise has zero to do with whether or not a judgment hits the opponent as that is a holy spell.

[Anthek]

But as far as I know expertise has zero to do with whether or not a judgment hits the opponent as that is a holy spell.


No, Judgements are considered ranged physical attacks.

[Resinous]

No, Judgements are considered ranged physical attacks.

Thats stupid if they are considered physical. I mean there is no weapon or physical projectile hitting so whats physical about it. That and why do they penetrate the hand of protection as if they are a spell. As far as I'm concerned judgements are spells since they follow all the same rules as a spell cast would in every situation.

Edit: I looked around but didn't find anything to say that judgments were in fact ranged physical like you said. I looked at a paladins talent tree though and on talents like judgments of the wise it does say it makes you're judgment 'spells' have a chance and so on. Ranged physical would make zero sense for another reason, and that is that as a ret paladin you're main attributes are strength and stamina and so ranged critical strike ratings are considerably lower than melee and spell from lack of agility. It just wouldn't make sense for it to be ranged physical at all unless they just wanted to call it ranged physical but give it all of the characteristics of an instant cast spell.

Looking at all the discussions and patch notes made me confused on it really, so I'm gonna say I have no idea. I mean I know what they did back in the day so paladins wouldnt have to stock up on spell hit rating to judge, but I don't see how that applies since they made judgements into their separate spells now, and hit rating is universal so I dunno. I really have no idea how it works when it comes down to it.

[Anthek]

Thats stupid if they are considered physical. I mean there is no weapon or physical projectile hitting so whats physical about it. That and why do they penetrate the hand of protection as if they are a spell. As far as I'm concerned judgements are spells since they follow all the same rules as a spell cast would in every situation.

Edit: I looked around but didn't find anything to say that judgments were in fact ranged physical like you said. I looked at a paladins talent tree though and on talents like judgments of the wise it does say it makes you're judgment 'spells' have a chance and so on. Ranged physical would make zero sense for another reason, and that is that as a ret paladin you're main attributes are strength and stamina and so ranged critical strike ratings are considerably lower than melee and spell from lack of agility. It just wouldn't make sense for it to be ranged physical at all unless they just wanted to call it ranged physical but give it all of the characteristics of an instant cast spell.

Looking at all the discussions and patch notes made me confused on it really, so I'm gonna say I have no idea. I mean I know what they did back in the day so paladins wouldnt have to stock up on spell hit rating to judge, but I don't see how that applies since they made judgements into their separate spells now, and hit rating is universal so I dunno. I really have no idea how it works when it comes down to it.

"Ranged physical" is in reference to what the ability gains bonuses from. It means that, while Judgement effects usually cause Holy damage, how it hits is determined by the same way as melee attacks. Hunter abilities work in a similar way, although both those and Judgements aren't affected by expertise, since they can't be dodged or parried.

[Resinous]

"Ranged physical" is in reference to what the ability gains bonuses from. It means that, while Judgement effects usually cause Holy damage, how it hits is determined by the same way as melee attacks. Hunter abilities work in a similar way.

I think I see what you're saying, makes sense I guess. It's still just weird to me though, I mean its an obvious spell, you can even cast it without a weapon and there is no physical dmg involved. I guess thats just blizzards way of making it work though, I dunno.

[Kained]

Judgments are odd....

Think about it as a flying Frost strike lol

that might help

[Lailinarel]

Judgments are bizarre, Kained pretty much hit it on the head, you can't spell reflect it, you can't block parry or dodge it and yet it's still not physical damage. It's more like an arcane shot than anything else. Which is totally obnoxious for a warrior, but that's another story.

And the expertise comes in handy not for your judgments, but for your Seal of Casino procs, since as was mentioned earlier in the post, they can be dodge parried and blocked separately from the attack proccing them. Just another very odd mechanic for the paladin class.