[RP Help] Antagonists, Protagonists, Conflict RP and You

[Ellsbeth]

Have you wanted to play a villain character, but have found instead that everyone wants you to die and your elaborate plots have died with you? Have you found that any attempt at drama has ended in a shitstorm? I know I have. I wanted to share these posts with you guys because I think this No, knows what he's talking about.

Originally posted by No of Thorium Brotherhood



Speaking as I can as someone who has played antagonists for years on my current server, it's not easy for either side, and there are a number of pitfalls to look out for. If you're looking to create conflict on the server, great! Here's the advice I can give from personal experience.

Antagonists:

You will always be outnumbered. You will be lucky to find one or two people who will go along with whatever plot you choose. The simple fact that you must acknowledge and come to accept is that the World of Warcraft is full of many, many people who want to be the hero, and very, very few who wish to be the villain. All of those heroes will be rushing to stop you at every turn. It can be frustrating, but the RP can be quite rewarding if you keep a few things in mind:


* Find a fair way to stay alive and functioning. Don't god-mode; it helps no one. Yes, it can be frustrating when everyone's out to kill you, but there are a number of ways to prevent that scenario. Don't antagonize to the extent of people wanting you dead. Be backed by a larger (canon) organization. Shift blame. There are a number of ways to keep a good antagonist up and running without resorting to frustrating combat situations where no one wins because no one wants to die.
* Coordinate with other antagonists. Form a posse. You're stronger when you have people to assist, backup in times of need. Your plots can also be more elaborate and interesting when you have multiple motives to contend with. Find a few people of similar mindset and start scheming.
* Have a good, solid motivation. "I'm evil" doesn't cut it. The world of Warcraft is an exercise in shades of grey -- if you're doing something morally reprehensible, why? What drives the character to such lengths? Leave the shrug-off answers "Because he likes killing people," or "Because he's insane," at the door, please. Mentally sound or mentally unstable, find motivation. Try to make it logical. You'd be amazed how many more people might sympathize with you (or at least hesitate to hate you) because they can relate to what you're doing in some sense.
* Play smart ICly. A good antagonist will know when to strike and when to wait, when to keep pushing and when to lay off. Running around attacking people isn't much of an interesting conflict (without significant motive.) Plan. Don't rush. Quality over quantity. A well-placed bit of evidence destroying a relationship can be much more satisfying than trying to kill some schmoe on the street.
* Be courteous OOCly. Planning on torturing some guy? Kidnapping his kid? Bombing his home? Talk to him OOCly first. If your victim-to-be is a solid RPer they may see the potential for interesting RP coming from such a conflict and work with you, giving details you may not have known for further use in antagonism. There aren't as many "No thanks," responses as you might think. Now, people are free to say no, and should that happen you should respect their wishes. There are a ton of fish in the sea.

Note that this does not mean you have to share every detail with your victims -- some things should be kept secret -- but by and large, a little planning with your enemy can be a good thing.
* Be respectful of boundaries. Some morally reprehensible acts are a bit borderline for the tastes of some. If you're going down that road, ask tactfully and respect the answer you get, even if it's a rejection. Never make anyone do something they're uncomfortable with on an OOC level.
* Maintain the IC/OOC line, and keep character knowledge separate. This is a general RP rule but holds especially true in conflict RP. It's imperative you respect what your character knows vs. what your other characters know vs. what you know. Keep it apart, and operate based on the knowledge of your character. If you can supposedly find out information about someone through your character's resources, talk to the person first.
* Accept that you're going to lose sometimes. You want the protagonists to give up something of theirs; be mindful that the same will be expected of you. Give a little, get a little.
* Come to grips with needing to close a chapter. Conflict RP is great and fun and highly enjoyable at times, but as time goes on, the need for some sort of resolution begins to become clear. Work towards a conclusion eventually. Note that this does not have to include anyone's deaths (and probably shouldn't) but should come to a close somehow. The evil item behind the character's madness is destroyed. The motivation for the character becomes obsolete. Remember that conflict RP is one of the primary vehicles for character growth, so find a way to grow from the experience.


Protagonists:

There are a whole lot of you, and antagonists are few. If you want conflict RP, you're going to have to avoid being overzealous and stumble a time or two. My advice is as follows:


* RP isn't a game you're trying to win. This is an interactive story, a multi-author novel, that requires a bit of give and take. The point here is the journey of the character, and sometimes that means failing against an antagonist. When you catch wind of an antagonist, don't immediately go out to crush them under your heel. Even if you're playing a zealous character who wouldn't abide the antagonist in question, there are ways of massaging that. Don't rush to win at the first sign of trouble. There's very little character growth as a result besides a notch in the belt.
* What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. If an antagonist approaches you with an offer to RP a bit of conflict, don't immediately turn them down. Consider what it would bring to your character; you may be able to explore avenues you haven't before. If, after considering it, you feel it won't bring you something that interests you or you're not comfortable with it, turn it down, by all means. Just don't reject out of hand.
* The antagonist's life is worth just as much as your own. This is a point in no way related to what the character thinks, but rather a note of RP respect. You would likely be affronted at the thought of someone wanting to kill your character off; just because Joe Evilbritches is playing someone on the darker side of grey does not make him a more expendable character. He has just as much right to play as you do, and you should play with that in mind.
* Get other people involved, but avoid mob mentality. Friends, guildmates, all those wonderful acquaintances can and should be involved in a conflict plot in some capacity. However, the more people get involved, the likelier it will be that the plot will devolve into baser acts and motivations. Too many cooks can spoil the broth. Just be mindful of it.
* Maintain the IC/OOC line. Just like the antagonists, you need to keep OOC knowledge OOC. If someone else has been taken to his secret volcano lair and only they know where it is but they're chatting about it in the OOC channel, don't just "stumble by" the out-of-the-way island off the coast. If you don't have an IC reason to go somewhere/say something/do something related to OOC knowledge you have about the plot, don't.
* Communicate with your neighborhood antagonist OOCly. Have an idea? Not comfortable with where things are going? Want to work together for a more interesting angle? Approach the antagonist's player OOCly and talk. It may spoil a small portion of the surprise, but the ultimate result will be more satisfying.
* A resolution to the conflict does not necessarily mean the death of the antagonist. Things should come to some sort of end at some point, a conclusion that feels satisfying enough, but there are other ways besides killing an individual. Work with the others in the plot to bring a resolution that works for everyone.



Conflict RP is a great thing and there should certainly be some of it once the server settles; it's certainly possible to do without character death or god-moding and with a good resolution.

[Ellsbeth]

Then a Treatise on Villainy as Posted by Iskula of Wyrmrest Accord from the RP board of Elevator Eleven (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Elevator_Eleven/index.php?act=idx). Original author is Gene Yuss.



Evil is harder than it looks. A truly effective villain is much, much harder to play than a hero, for a number of reasons:


The Rule of Power
A villain has to be significantly more powerful than the hero at the beginning.
To some, effective villains come off as overpowered. They have the superweapons, or the army, or the empire. What many fail to understand is that the villain HAS to have this advantage at the beginning to be effective! A villain the same power or less than the hero is entirely pointless: The audience is left wondering why the hero just doesn’t deal with him and leave it at that, since he clearly has the capability to do so. Thus, at the beginning the hero MUST be weaker in some form than the villain. The villain can be more powerful by simple, brute strength (The Juggernaut), intelligence and technology (any mad scientist), political prowess (Evil Archchancellor), minion amount (Despot), or any number of other reasons, or a combination of several reasons. The exact reason is irrelevant: The result is all that matters. A significantly more powerful villain leads to greater satisfaction and pride in his successful defeat.

The SNK Boss Corollary
An EXCELLENT villain cannot be TOO powerful!
An OVERLY powerful, undefeatable villain leads to frustration and anger at the player! The villain must show at least the possibility of being thwarted or destroyed, lest the heroes rise up in revolt and exit the building, stage left, bound for less irritating fun. Avoiding the temptation of the unstoppable force of a truly overwhelming villain is tough.

Striking a careful balance between these two points is the most key factor in creating an effective antagonist.

The Rule of Reason
A good villain has to have a reason to be one.
A villain with no point might as well jump down a well: He’d be more interesting down there. Any decent antagonist has to have a reason to be “evil”: Popular choices include insanity, revenge, conquest, and simple instinct (Be careful with this one! A bad instinctual villain just comes off as stupid and irritating.) You can even make the reason fairly undefined, as long as it’s clear that there IS a reason in there somewhere.

The Mithos Corollary
An EXCELLENT villain has a GOOD reason to be one!
While almost ANY pretext can theoretically be used, it’s usually a smart idea to find one that makes sense in context with canon and character. As Jhonen Vasquez aptly put it, in reference to one of his mass-murdering MAIN CHARACTERS: "{I} find the blurriness of it all much more appealing than making him go nuts over being pantsed in school once. 'YAAAARGH!! I have been pantsed!! I kill like the damned now!!' That's just not done."

The V Corollary
A particularly good reason can turn a villain into a semi-heroic character.
A very well written and motivated villain can come off as more heroic than the people he opposes. In some cases, this is a good thing: However, in other circumstances this is to be avoided because it detracts from the tone. The decision is really based on the context of the character.

The Rule of Terror
A villain must be a truly frightening force.
A non-scary villain is like a non-moving car: Occasionally amusing, but useless and a bit of an obstruction. Unless you earnestly intend to simply play him for laughs (In which case find a comedy RP or something) don’t bother creating a villain that is purely funny and never effective. A villain that taunts his prey or acts hilariously antisocial is fine: One that is never, ever actually dangerous and terrifying has no reason to exist.

The Rule of Stones
The villain is the proactive force.
A villain creates a situation which the hero reacts to. This is because heroes are an inherently reactive force: Without a target, they have nothing to do. Thus, as a villain, a writer must act FIRST.

The Evil Empire Corollary
…Except in cases where he is already established
…Unless he is writing a villain who is the status quo as a ruler or despot, in which case the hero can revolt against general tyranny without direct prompting (Though usually some is still required. Heroes have a lot of inertia.)

The Rule of Mice and Men
VILLAINOUS PLANS DON'T ALWAYS GO AS PLANNED. DEAL WITH IT
Part of using an interactive realm is that sometimes someone will do something that throws your carefully crafted plan off-kilter. Don’t waste time whining: It’s unseemly and crude. Deal with it and act like you (and your character) planned for it all along. Or, if your character is a non-planner, punch through it. Either way, it’ll make you look cooler. Even in a non-interactive realm, it’s still a good idea to make the plan screw up in at least a couple of ways: Otherwise, you make the villain too omniscient and ruin the suspension of disbelief. (For both good and bad examples see Death Note, and look for any instance with the line "Just as planned.")

The Rule of Megalomania
Not all villains will be on the same side.
Another villain is still a threat to you. Do not disregard another villain because of a hero's presence. You can and will squabble over the same objectives, interfere with each other’s plans, and often end up beating the hell out of each other just as much as the hero.

The Paranoiac's Corollary
Just because another villain shows up doesn't mean he's trying to steal the show!
On the other hand, two villains don’t necessarily mean one is ACTIVELY trying to interfere with the other. The main target is still the hero/objective: The other villain is just an obstacle in the way.

The Legion of Doom Corollary
It is possible for villains to cooperate without backstabbing each other!
Keep this in mind. If your objectives can be accomplished with the aid of another with nothing to gain from making you fail, don’t reject the other writer’s overture out of hand just because you fear him stealing your scenes/betraying your character. It is perfectly possible for villains to get along, no matter what the comics say (Sinister Six my ass. More like “Big Squabble with a Name.”)

The Rule of Subtlety
A villain CAN be on the “good” side
It is possible to have a villain on the same side as the technical heroes.
The Kratos Example
The villain may have a personal or plot-related interest in one of the heroes and thus is helping him along.
The Enemy Mine Example
The villain may be forced by circumstances to fight a greater threat with the cooperation of the “good” side.
The Knight Templar Example
The villain can be a hero gone too far: Foul methods to create “good” deeds. May technically appear as the exemplar of good.

There are many other methods and reasons for the villain to join or seemingly join the “good” side. Look into them: They’re excellent for the creation of extreme tension.

The Rule of Death
The Final, and HARDEST rule to accept about being a villain: The villain always, always loses.
It matters not his power, or his legions, or even his immortality: The villain always ends up losing the war. He may win battles, he may complete objectives, he may occasionally even leave a hero dead in the ground… but he will never, ever be the victor in the final analysis. This is the hardest reality for any writer to accept, since the villains are often so awesome the hero looks silly… but otherwise, the audience, and in this case, the other players, feel horribly cheated. There must be resolution, after all: Whether or not they’ll admit it, almost everyone prefers a happy ending where the villain gets his just desserts. (Except weird guys. Like me.) The loss doesn’t necessarily have to be a final one; he can get away, vowing to return; he can get sealed into a can; he can switch sides; he can even do the whole “Now I am more powerful than you can ever imagine!” thing if you feel that way. But the point is he cannot win the final battle with the hero(es.) Ever. (Unless this is suddenly a horror movie, which it’s not.) Attempting to make the villain win in any permanent fashion makes the entire hero-loving population of the field (i.e. almost everyone) fluctuate between giving up and sobbing and trying to murder you with a spoon. Don’t do it.

The Turks Corollary
The villain must win SOME of the battles.
A villain who never wins even minor skirmishes, however, soon degenerates into comic relief and silliness, violating the Rule of Terror. (See: Cobra Commander.)

[Ellsbeth]

((Save for later additions))

[Naheal]

I would like to point out that, in the case of an anti-hero, the line between antagonist and protagonist becomes extremely blurred.

It's also very possible for an antagonist to be a good person at heart, thus making the conflict and eventual demise of the villain just that much more tear jerking.

[Necroxis]

I RP my warlock as a major dick-head villain. Its fun...I enjoy playing both good and evil characters.

One thing that I went into the whole conflict RP thing with Ivan (my warlock) was with the idea that:

Villains lose...good guys win...

You need to realize this while playing a villain or you WILL end up god-modding or doing something completely ridiculous IC wise. Of course you get the fun of RPing the entire way until you're defeated (perhaps work with one of your opponents and maybe one of you die off or something significant happens).

But you need to resign yourself to the fact that "Good guys win, bad guys lose" is a mindset with 99% of RPers. If you're playing a bad character doing bad things, and people are after you, they will want your defeat/demise/death.

I must admit, it is fun to dig deep within myself to pull out the "dick-head" aspect of my character. I mean come on...how fun is it to torture someone with images of their dead child...?

[Coeryn]

Ooh, a great read, all very true. I'd love to play a villain sometime, maybe a death knight or something-- unless my little Coeryn turns into one, with her resentment of elves and Forsaken starting so early in her life. :]

[Ellsbeth]

Playing a villain has been difficult for me. I attempted it with several characters and in the end gave out under the pressure of constantly striving to struggle out of the morass of hate. Probably my most successful was also the one that was beat down the most. I didn't follow through by contacting most of the people OOC before hand for involvement and so he was beat to a pulp time and time again.

Luckily I knew a few people who were willing to help out in the plot and so they could defend him until it got to the point that they too were griefed and I was done with it.

I'm thinking of creating a plotline with villainous intent. Keep an eye out for it.

[Villayna]

excellent find, Ells. I'll be looking at this pretty closely pretty soon.

*makes cuddly teddy-bear peace sign to throw people off the scent*

[Swerto]

Securo pretty much matches up the Antagonist thing perfectly... why does no one want to RP wit meh?

[Villayna]

I think it's pretty fascinating that sometimes people cannot disconnect roles and the IRL people behind them. I always wonder at people who follow around actors who play villains in movies or TV shows and heckle them, unable to recognize that that actor is NOT that villain.

[Naheal]

The Knight Templar Example
The villain can be a hero gone too far: Foul methods to create “good” deeds. May technically appear as the exemplar of good.

This matches Naheal.

[Ellsbeth]

Securo pretty much matches up the Antagonist thing perfectly... why does no one want to RP wit meh?

Is there something you're missing that they outline in the rest of their articles? For one thing, is your character entirely TOO powerful and TOO all-knowing? Not meaning to, we as players can get so attached to the character that we don't want them to be flawed or capable of folly. I've never roleplayed with Securo, perhaps he only fits the description because you think he does, as opposed to him actually BEING the antagonist.

For example, I came across a new roleplayer on Wyrmrest who was playing the superior blood elf antagonist. It's been done to death, we know now, but for him it was a new and interesting concept. It can be done really well if done by picking and choosing opportunities to be an ass and allowing your targets/victims to have their own place in your roleplay. Essentially he was griefing them by only attacking them for being dumb, stupid savages, and not allowing them the opportunity to prove him wrong.

Every time I saw him interact with people he was attacking them. There was no motivation for his character to do it except for a flimsy ooc desire to play a villain. So I got involved with him in whispers because I had enough of his griefing (which at first I thought was intentional) then through dialogue we discovered that he wanted just to be a foil for people's roleplay and hadn't meant to be constantly attacking people, he just thought they would want something to fight with.

The only problem was that the argument would hit a point where fists would fly and of course he was invincible, powerful, smarter, greater, better than anyone else. He didn't get his comeuppance, instead he danced around blows, he ignored people throwing things at him. Every time I saw him in this RP Inn he was being assaulted by something and not being hit.

How frustrating for someone to not have any recourse. To not be able to kick the bad guy out of the bar or punch him in the face, if need be for some characters. My analogy to him was a white supremacist constantly going to a Black Panther bar. Maybe they would go once just to piss them off, but each subsequent time he tried he would likely be beaten to a pulp or barred from entry. The sheer fact he kept returning and returning, expecting the majority to accept his rudeness, was inadvertent griefing.

Now he's amazing at it. It's suave. It's subtle. Given the opportunity he says some pretty superior things and there are characters that don't like him at all, but their players don't want to throttle him OOC. He's not happy, sunshine and I fully expect great things to come of his antagonist.

So after that long-winded response. Perhaps it's because your character is SUCH a villain that it's not fun for people to fight him. Villains need to fall. And villains need to pick their moments.

[Anaie]

Great stuff... very interesting reads.

I always tried to play Anaie as knowing she was villainous but always doing it for a 'greater purpose'. 90% of the time I interacted with people it was friendly and if threatening, it was subtle (well as well as I can be), but she is a murderous thing that will do whatever she has to for her goals to succeed, which was to find her sister and then 'protect' her. That and I almost always have her as appearing to be subservient to someone else (be it her wanting to be Lascivious' personal assassin, or in the thrall of the Lich King, or what have you) and that gave her a "I feel bad for her" kind of image... the fact that she enjoyed the things she did usually was not known to many.

[Lysimachus]

Having devoured these articles, I shall of course be turning two of my dearest RP associates in this direction, as well.

[Resinous]

Problem with most WoW bad guys is they want everyone to know what their doing that’s evil, so their actual evil plans have no shock value and are usually averted. I know during my peak evilness I would lie and deceive as much as possible, it worked well to cause great sorrow and misery that me and Keraph could sit back and enjoy watching. I would always be very nice to people OOC but that never involved telling people what I was doing IC, that defeats the purpose of bad guy RP. Never liked the idea of letting people choose their own fate in wow by letting them know the consequences of RP’ing with a bad guy like I was. Besides people should just know that here in Infection, we bathe in your sorrow and pain.

[Qabian]

I adore my villainy, but it is a lot of work, and sometimes I just prefer to seethe in the background rather than bring it to the forefront in a blaze of moustache twirling, tying damsels to railroad tracks glory, but when I do write in a co-operative style, I always try to play the instigator of conflict, or at the very least the force to be contended with.


The Rule of Death
The Final, and HARDEST rule to accept about being a villain: The villain always, always loses.

This, I have always understood. Getting it to coincide with this:


The Turks Corollary
The villain must win SOME of the battles.

when interacting with others, can be excruciatingly difficult.

[Anaie]

I used to love having Q absolutely break poor Kia's spirit on a regular basis... it was very fun. I really considered having her become a minion if you will hehe.

[Bruuin]

Evil is harder than it looks. A truly effective villain is much, much harder to play than a hero, for a number of reasons

I found this out the hard way recently with the Onyx Sun stuff that I squeezed out with the help of quite a few people. Brox was the Antagonist/"villain" in the whole scheme of things. Or, to be more precise:


The Knight Templar Example
The villain can be a hero gone too far: Foul methods to create “good” deeds. May technically appear as the exemplar of good.

From the trickle of news I get from the Horde side, I think within reason and excluding the things that happened, it turned out pretty much how I wanted. And following the guidelines above, I think I fell into quite a few of the rules and categories. And it was tough as hell to stay the course, especially when I had people RPing with brox and talking about the OS before anything was revealed. It was very surreal that it got where it did.

But, enough about me.

I think this is by far one of the best finds, Ells! I skimmed over what I could and will be reading more into it later. Maybe I could see where I failed and where I excelled in the scheme of it all.

Definitely a must read for anyone who RPs, me thinks!

Edit: Also, Qabian is the bestest villain of all time. And Keraph. XD

[Ellsbeth]

Yes I'm really happy with these discoveries. I've also run across a bunch of posts on the regular WoW Roleplaying forum that I've found helpful, but some parts of them need editing for clarity before I'd post them.

I'm really loving the Wyrmrest forums for its collection of roleplayers who are full of all sorts of great ideas and helpful hints to new roleplayers.

[Swerto]

Actually, consider most of my RP with Securo is usually just him acting cocky and nobody knowing what he's up to... -shrug-

I often don't act bigger than I am IC unless I can back it up in a duel or some other form.