Resilience and Burst Damage

[Chikt]

I know I've heard a few of my fellow healers complaining about PvP healing and after doing some reading tonight I am at least a little bit more relieved.

From the sounds of things and several posts by Blizzard guys on the forums, it sounds like burst DPS has been unexpectedly high in PvP in Wrath so far, and the Healers are suffering the most for it. It sounds like the intention was for healers to last a lot longer (at least as far as Shaman go, since all our Resto PvP gear is covered in MP5) but with the burst right now, it's just not happening.

They're apparently waiting to see how things fare when there's a lot more resilience out there, and I can kinda understand the notion - but the fact that I can be focused down by a single rogue in the course of one stun even with earthshield and two HOT's up on myself is frustrating to say the least.

I'm hoping at least that some sort of fix for the huge amounts of burst can be fixed through a buff to resilience or the like, and not a massive class overhaul.

[Yatokth]

Likely they'll either buff resilience or nerf damage.

Nerfing damage would affect PvE and cause scaling issues in both aspects of the game later on down the line, and it would additionally be ALOT harder to balance to nerf everyone's damage.

So if they end up doing anything, it will be buffing resilience.

[Cristok]

Yea as a resto Druid I can't even find arena partners. In BG's I can withstand a pretty heafty barage in Tree form due to the armor buff they gave it, but I haven't tried it in Arenas yet.

In the fast pace of pvp I find that I have to play what im familiar with and that while I tried Boom-kin out, its just not ME. If resto druid no longer works for Arenas I don't know WHAT I'm gonna do...

And yes I know I need to find a nice Ret Pally out there to play with *Takes out ad in the personals*

[Skaadvik]

I've been feeling the same exact thing. It's a *bit* more manageable for me since I'm in plate, but that extra physical mitigation only goes so far. My 3v3 (me and two Unholy DKs) has been breaking straight even on games, and a lot of the ones we lose would be wins if I wasn't bursted down so quickly. I've been frustrated by this since the moment I set foot in an 80 BG.

[Dewce]

PvP in it's current state is stupid. While in moonkin form I have melee just doing stupid amounts of damage to me and i'm pretty much dead before HoJ or CS wear off. there is lots of insta-gibs going on. I'm sure it'll get a little better with res, but blizzard needs to stop rolling in their money pit and fix their red headed step child.

i have to wonder what the hell the beta was for. they didn't tune end game at all. pvp is broke, raids are no challenge. So they made sure quests worked and you can give your gnome and night elf a mohawk. GG BLIZZAARD!

[Advurb]

It'll get better, nobody has resil yet. Remember, the resil cap will be around 800 during this expansion, so just wait. S5 will probably be rough for healers.

[Yatokth]

It'll get better, nobody has resil yet. Remember, the resil cap will be around 800 during this expansion, so just wait. S5 will probably be rough for healers.

I have 636 resilience myself now, and I can personally tell the difference, evne though I'm not a healer, I die ALOT less fast.

Break 600 resil guys. It's alot better.

[Taknar]

I wish it was as easy as "Grab more resilience" Yat, but until that point being a healer in PvP is pointless and painful.

It would be the same as saying that a warrior did zero DPS in raids until they passed a certain crit rating barrier, and then all of a sudden once past the barrier their effectiveness shoots up. It's a sign of a broken system.

[Yatokth]

I wish it was as easy as "Grab more resilience" Yat, but until that point being a healer in PvP is pointless and painful.

It would be the same as saying that a warrior did zero DPS in raids until they passed a certain crit rating barrier, and then all of a sudden once past the barrier their effectiveness shoots up. It's a sign of a broken system.

Not zero, but virtually.

Warrior DPS is either good, or pretty bad. Ask the people in my ten man. I was running with a crappy weapon and would bottom DPS by a fair amount. I think I'll do better next time now that I've upgraded - we'll see.

But trust me, I know what it's like to be undergeared and just get rolled by everyone while trying to get gear. I'm a Warrior, I had to do that last expansion, I was literally useless and just died a bunch of times till I ground enough bonus honor to get some resilience and got a comparable weapon.

Wasn't so bad this expansion with the craftable gear and the buff to damage.

If you want to be effective, you have to suffer this time around, as a healer. It sucks, but it happens. You just gotta grind those BGs and get em up. Farm rating at 1400 if you absolutely have to to get more resilience. Get the Hateful offset gear, it's loaded. Run Vault of Archavon every week, hope for drops (I got lucky here, I have hateful legs and deadly gloves) and such.

I'm not saying it isn't stupid, it IS a broken system that you have to suffer through all that crap just to be effective - but it's not going to change so unfortunately, you gotta either do it or quit.

[Dewce]

I know a way to fix things. don't give moster burst damage classes res and give it to everyone else. that way the burst people will do as much damage as the not so bursty, evening things out a bit. If you can exploded someone in under 10 seconds you don't need resilience IMO.

[Advurb]

Most rogues don't get resil for that reason. Resil gear gimps your damage. That's why Shinra got gladiator title in s3, he was carried by his T6.

[Taknar]

I'm not saying it isn't stupid, it IS a broken system that you have to suffer through all that crap just to be effective - but it's not going to change so unfortunately, you gotta either do it or quit.

The fact that Ghostcrawler is commenting on it at all makes me believe there is a chance that they are going to look at it. Until then, I quit. I didn't like the grind when I was on my shaman doing damage and actually contributing. There is no way in hell I'm going to enjoy anything about PvP when I can't heal through 2 people DPSing someone else and I die in the span of a stun.

[Chikt]

And my issue is GETTING gear with that much resilience without doing Arenas.

[Yatokth]

And my issue is GETTING gear with that much resilience without doing Arenas.

NO ONE EXPECTS ARCHAVON.

Seriously...

It's stupid, but it's how you can get an extra boost.

[Taknar]

My opinion on this matter has changed slightly upon finding out you can buy epic PvP gear with badges. I'm all over that.

[Chikt]

NO ONE EXPECTS ARCHAVON.

Seriously...

It's stupid, but it's how you can get an extra boost.

Problems there are A) Getting groups for it, B) Your gear dropping and C) Winning the roll. I can't always do Archavon on peak hours and most people have done it by the time I'm actually able to do it.


My opinion on this matter has changed slightly upon finding out you can buy epic PvP gear with badges. I'm all over that.

You can only get the Epic PvP gear from the 25 man badges. Blue PvP gear comes from the 5/10 man badges.

[Yatokth]

Problems there are A) Getting groups for it, B) Your gear dropping and C) Winning the roll. I can't always do Archavon on peak hours and most people have done it by the time I'm actually able to do it.

It's a long shot, but it's better than no shot.


You can only get the Epic PvP gear from the 25 man badges. Blue PvP gear comes from the 5/10 man badges.

Which is better than nothing.

Like I said, it's a stupid system, but you can get through it, you just gotta keep on truckin'.

[Lailinarel]

Ya know, it's a funny thing. Back at early 70 a lot of rogues rolled druids cause bear druids could hit harder than we could with ten times the survivability. Or warriors cause 'rogues couldn't beat warriors'. I stuck with the class, specced mutilate, and held my own and loved it at 70.

Over time, more and more resil kicked in and I wasn't hardcore about arena's enough to worry too much about team make up and pretty much stopped playing for most of s3/4 and when I finally came back my gear was so far behind it hurt bad. I mean, I couldn't burst down a priest for the life of me, and I'm not gonna say I'm amazing, but I tend to think I was a pretty decent rogue.

Around s3 if I'm not mistaken they buffed the sub tree, and everyone said amazing things about it. I never was much for it, no big numbers to please the eyes, not for me. But a lot of rogues really vouched for the control it has. (And nobody can deny the control a competent subtlety rogue can exert over a fight.) I wasn't really into it.

Now what's the moral of this story you find yourself asking? Well... You look at a tree that was balanced around having most of it's damage mitigated by resil. Balanced around controling others, and locking them down. A tree built for high end pvp. And then you throw it at people with low end pvp gear. Tell me what's gonna happen?

And I think it's funny now, that it's the CS and the HoJ that give people trouble now. It used to be the MS warrior who intercepted, crit twice and executed your ass. They nerfed his pvp viability pissless and now there's damn few MS warriors anymore. I'm sure folks are once again askin what the point of this is and so I'll get to it.

WoW PvP isn't balanced around low end gear. It isn't at all. As mutilate with decent gear in S1 I ripped shit to shreds. Hell I wish I had fraps running the time I killed an arms warrior and a mage in a two on one fight. My adrenaline was pumping so hard that I had to walk away from the keyboard for five minutes to stop my hands from shaking.

Resil unfortunately turns fighting healers in pvp into a game of poking a bear with a stick till it decides it's tired of running and lays down for a nap. Yeah, burst damage right now is retarded, and the grind will suck. But guess what. Try hitting 80 and getting gear to tank heroics. It hurts a little bit at first if you jump into pve as a tank without the gear. Screw it hurts a lot. But if that's all ya got then that's what you do.


Edit: Added.

Yatokth is one of the people who's name I recognize from running into in Wintergrasp on a semi regular basis. He's been workin for that pvp gear and I know it may sound crazy, but for all the OP flak my prot warrior gets right now. When I try running into that relic room, I promise you it doesn't take more than a few seconds for that aoe to take me out just like anyone else. A good frost mage still makes pretty short work of me if I can't find him in the chaos and if there's multiple casters around me and lag, well that's even worse. Then also figure that you can sit in the side seat of a tank and be completely untouchable pew pewing death from above, or healing your raid members and so on. Wintergrasp and Strand ain't your things? I'm sorry. Maybe blizz will make a mistake that makes s5 caster gear purchasable for nothing from a vendor like they did for some odd reason with s2 for a while.

They made it so you can pve your way into pvp gear now though. So I don't really get what the complaining is about. I'm just looking back to vanilla and thinkin... ya know, I've never seen a GM or HW ranked priest... So all in all... life ain't so bad.

Please also consider that it isn't just resil that melee burst classes contend with, they gave green armor to a lot of pvp gear later in bc, and even if clothies don't realize it, it does make a big difference in their survival. Have faith, and some day you just may be able to torment some pitiful undeargeared rogue by running around for hours with him stabbing at you uselessly, and on that day your sacred pilgrimage will be complete.

[Roth'rili]

Lail your story...makes me feel bad for how many times a undergeared melee as wailed away at me for 5 minutes or more, and I don't even PvP in PvP gear, t6 is just to nice.

Pretty much I got to say what Yat said, keep on trucking through it. When I respeced Ret before the "Ret was god" patch it was insanely tough to pvp for the gear. I had mediocre gear and hell no Ret dps trinkets or rings or necklace. I couldn't kill shiz unless it was near my gear level or I had help. I also went from being top healer to bottom of the barrel dmg done on BG stats which was a little demoralizing. I PvPed it out to get most of S2, S4 gloves from left over points in my arena good time days and a few accessories (never got a dps trinket though). My hard work payed off and I ran competitive on the charts once again (ok it helped getting epic t6 quality dps PvE plate gear sew me >.> ) so I think it as to do a lot with having some patience.

Heck if PvP is so demoralizing PvE for awhile and get decent gear there. Then go PvP, you will hit like a truck still but...well be rather squishie but makes it better off then sitting through the grind with mediocre gear. Though from what it sounds I am not to sure if thats as doable as it was in BC

[Advurb]

BGs are not PvP, they're a means to get gear to PvP. Arena is all that matters. A good player can get gladiator title with any class.

[Lailinarel]

BGs are not PvP, they're a means to get gear to PvP. Arena is all that matters. A good player can get gladiator title with any class.

I won't derail this with an off topic debate, but I think that's an off topic opinion and hardly relevant to a discussion on resil and burst dps.

[Taknar]

In terms of what Blizzard is balancing, arena is the only PvP. Maybe wintergrasp. However, Blizzard has also stated that they would like to take action to add a system to measure skill in BGs and be able to give away epic gear through that activity as well.

On topic: Bumping the resil cap? I have heard people talking about it, but not seen a post regarding it anywhere. Can people confirm this?

[Kained]

BOP ME BRO BOP ME

stupid burst and thier 2 shotting of my shaman...

[Chikt]

BOP ME BRO BOP ME

stupid burst and thier 2 shotting of my shaman...

"Okay man. New strategy. The moment we see anything that moves, you bop me."

That's the strat I'd be running had I a Ret Pally. T_T

[Advurb]

It's hop now

[Lailinarel]

Slightly off topic, but fun fighting you below SW earlier Kained. It's nice to fight a ret pally who I don't just rape and shake my head at after the fight. That was a damn good one. Sadly when I hearthed I forgot to buy my new pvp belt which was the entire reason I went to SW in the first place.

[Skaadvik]

I just topped 200 resil, and it's already making a huge difference. I still get owned quickly when I have 3-4+ guys on me, but who doesn't?

[Selash]

I have to echo my concern though about burst damage being too high in PvP, particularly with mages and rogues. Ret paladins strangely I haven't been having too much trouble with, whereas BC they were the bane of my existance.

But still, two arcane mages should not be able to burst down a healer in about three seconds with a pyroblast crit and mirror images. That shit is broken to all hell; especially since each mirror image gets their own polymorph.

[Korangar]

Did I hear that right? Those mirror images do damage or just polymorph? At 76 I was fighting and beating two different 80 mages on two occasions. Both used that mirror image thing and I didn't see a huge change in damage or I would have noticed it.

Fighting a third 80 mage, I won't say who because they frequent here, was much tougher though; but I wouldn't credit his beating me to the mirror image ability.

[Fhenrir]

But still, two arcane mages should not be able to burst down a healer in about three seconds with a pyroblast crit and mirror images. That shit is broken to all hell; especially since each mirror image gets their own polymorph.

To put it bluntly, if two arcane mages are taking 3 seconds to burst someone down they're doing it wrong. PoM Pyro hit me for 11k yesterday by itself, from one mage. That said, the only healer that should be able to do anything about 2 arcane mages unhindered is a paladin that prebubbles it.


Burst is a tad stupid right now, but most people don't have resilience even up to the numbers people had in BC yet, no less the intended caps for level 80. Give it time (and likely some resilience buffs from Blizzard) and things should level off a little more.

Or not. Rogues were consistently bursting people through most of level 70, so who's to say?

[Selash]

Did I hear that right? Those mirror images do damage or just polymorph? At 76 I was fighting and beating two different 80 mages on two occasions. Both used that mirror image thing and I didn't see a huge change in damage or I would have noticed it.

Fighting a third 80 mage, I won't say who because they frequent here, was much tougher though; but I wouldn't credit his beating me to the mirror image ability.

They do both, believe it or not. In a similar instance, I got polymorphed by the main mage, only to trinket out of it and be caught with a polymorph again by one of the mirror images. And it's not the damage from the mirror images I'm too worried about as it is the fact that one mage can effectively chain polymorph with it, and if I recall, there was a rule set by Blizzard that bans giving your pet the same name in order to create targeting issues. What I think Blizzard needs to do with the ability is set it so that the mirror images all have 'Image of [Player name]' as a name instead of just their name.

[Skaadvik]

I have to echo my concern though about burst damage being too high in PvP, particularly with mages and rogues. Ret paladins strangely I haven't been having too much trouble with, whereas BC they were the bane of my existance.

But still, two arcane mages should not be able to burst down a healer in about three seconds with a pyroblast crit and mirror images. That shit is broken to all hell; especially since each mirror image gets their own polymorph.

Yeah, I have been having tremendous problems with mages.

[Tsu]

To put it bluntly, if two arcane mages are taking 3 seconds to burst someone down they're doing it wrong. PoM Pyro hit me for 11k yesterday by itself, from one mage. That said, the only healer that should be able to do anything about 2 arcane mages unhindered is a paladin that prebubbles it.


Burst is a tad stupid right now, but most people don't have resilience even up to the numbers people had in BC yet, no less the intended caps for level 80. Give it time (and likely some resilience buffs from Blizzard) and things should level off a little more.

Or not. Rogues were consistently bursting people through most of level 70, so who's to say?

yeah but even t6/glaive rogues took a lot more than 2 globals to kill someone

disgusting damage sure, but not even close to on the same level of retarded

[Chikt]

Getting three-shot in the course of a single stun when approaching 600 resilience is simply ridiculous I think. I'm getting killed so fast by Rogues that I don't even have time to pop my trinket and get off an instant-cast heal on myself they kill me that fast. It's insane.

[Advurb]

Er.. that shouldn't happen. You're doing something wrong.

[Yatokth]

I would call it being hit by multiple people.

[Chikt]

I would call it being hit by multiple people.

One Rogue. In raid gear.

He knows who he is. XD

I'm sure he can vouch for it as well, there's little I could have done in that situation, and he was the only one on me. I dropped like a brick.

[Fhenrir]

Raid gear is incredibly easy to get right now, and people wearing a good quantity of the 25-man stuff are going to far outscale what is generally available to PvP healers right now.

What are you using to get to 600 resilience right now? I'm willing to bet your healing and/or hit points have taken a hit to the point where you're probably easier to burst down and have weaker earth shields.

Healers in general aren't going to do well by themselves either, and I don't imagine that changing much with high resilience. Get Yat off his ass and putting his sword to use!

[Fynne]

To be fair, I had Tenacity. Otherwise it's 4 shot or so. ;)

[Chikt]

To be fair, I had Tenacity. Otherwise it's 4 shot or so. ;)

Yeah, it's not unusual at all for Rogues to just eat me alive. I forgot about the tenacity, but to be fair, it was no different looking from a rogue fight for me.


Raid gear is incredibly easy to get right now, and people wearing a good quantity of the 25-man stuff are going to far outscale what is generally available to PvP healers right now.

What are you using to get to 600 resilience right now? I'm willing to bet your healing and/or hit points have taken a hit to the point where you're probably easier to burst down and have weaker earth shields.

Healers in general aren't going to do well by themselves either, and I don't imagine that changing much with high resilience. Get Yat off his ass and putting his sword to use!

Crafted PvP gear and some Hateful Glad from BG's, one piece of Savage Glad. I have around 15,000HP and 13,000 mana in my PvP gear (higher HP and DRASTICALLY lower mana pool than my raid gear).

If high resilience isn't going to fix the problem, it worries me what exactly is required TO fix it. At the best of times my earth shield crit heals for 2K, normal heals for 1.2K. It doesn't do nearly as much as it did in Wrath, even with a whole bunch of talents into it. But I don't see them buffing Earth Shield.

[Fhenrir]

Yeah, the HP total is a bit low. Same thing happens to me on my paladin.

Honestly I imagine that there'll be a content patch at some point to make resilience scale better, or reduce default damage, or something (since it's already a PvP exclusive mechanic).

Blizzard has said that they're trying to avoid the hour long arenas of BC, so damage and DPSers have been scaled upward, but I get the feeling this is more than they were looking for. I can't imagine things staying how they are.


Also, crafted/Savage stuff probably isn't worth using over PvE epics if you have them for the respective slots.

[Advurb]

Crafted PvP gear is garbage. That's your problem. If you have the rating, save for deadly off-set.

[Chikt]

Crafted PvP gear is garbage. That's your problem. If you have the rating, save for deadly off-set.

Getting rating isn't so easy for some classes. It's not so clear-cut simple. Right now I'm doing my best to get the Savage stuff, but the only way I'm going to do that is with SOME kind of resilience gear (I drop WAY too fast in PvE gear to bother, I tried) which means putting up with crafted crap.

Don't you think if it were so simple as "save for the deadly off-set" I'd be doing that?

[Yatokth]

Yeah, the HP total is a bit low. Same thing happens to me on my paladin.

Honestly I imagine that there'll be a content patch at some point to make resilience scale better, or reduce default damage, or something (since it's already a PvP exclusive mechanic).

Blizzard has said that they're trying to avoid the hour long arenas of BC, so damage and DPSers have been scaled upward, but I get the feeling this is more than they were looking for. I can't imagine things staying how they are.


Also, crafted/Savage stuff probably isn't worth using over PvE epics if you have them for the respective slots.

This is only true for DPS.

And tbh, 'burst damage' itself is not so high that it is unhealable by any class.

It is the burst damage, coupled with the CC and DEFENSES of the fab four. Who are the fab four?

Death Knights
Paladins
Rogues (Mutilate)
Mages (Arcane)

In that order. They all have high damage (or healing, in case of holy paladins) and either easy ways to CC other people or easy ways to BREAK CC (or BOTH, see: rogues/DKs) and high survivability if played properly.

Most arena matches that don't involve one of these four classes (Rare, I know) are pretty balanced and not so bad for most healers, though damage is still noticeably better. Which is a good thing in my opinion, it should be.

Riding on the coattails of the fab four are BM Hunters, nerfs inc next patch so they aren't so bad then. Some complain about feral druids as well, but I think since they're so vulnerable to CC it's not a big issue.

But really, those four classes are just retardedly unbalanced at the moment. It will be better next patch with the DK/Pally nerfs, but they still need to handle mut rogues and arcane mages.

Note that I speak in an entirely arena environment perspective (as this is an arena thread) I'm not QQing that DKs can 1v1 me all day (though most of them can't. :D) or that rogues are OP cause of dismantle (hardly, look at deadly brew and mut/prep first) this is from a purely arena perspective, I honestly trash rogues when it's me vs. them, but they're unbalanced in arena.

[Fhenrir]

This is only true for DPS.

Debatable! I'm playing a healer right now, and I think my results are certainly comparable to if I were stacked in resil/stam. There are some matches that would obviously go better, but in other matches I dig the extra spellpower for better healing/burst.

Then again, I'm probably gonna go ret for my 2v2 soon to ride the srs bidness double DPS train in PvE gear to success.

[Agnarr]

I honestly trash rogues when it's me vs. them, but they're unbalanced in arena.
But also, rogues are the paper to our (warriors') scissors.

[Yatokth]

Debatable! I'm playing a healer right now, and I think my results are certainly comparable to if I were stacked in resil/stam. There are some matches that would obviously go better, but in other matches I dig the extra spellpower for better healing/burst.

Then again, I'm probably gonna go ret for my 2v2 soon to ride the srs bidness double DPS train in PvE gear to success.

Well I can see that, but once they mellow out the fab four I think resil will be mandatory - if my opposing healer is wearing PvE gear, I rip them up, even if they're a paladin.

[Chikt]

Resilience DOES make a difference to my survivability, it's just that to be as survivable as you used to be in the Burning Crusade you've got to have that much more of it. I've tried healing in PvE gear and all that does is make me that much easier to kill by classes that usually have a bit more trouble killing me in my PvP gear, like Warriors and Ret Paladins. The only time I wear my raid gear to a PvP fight is Wintergrasp when I'm with a big raid group.

Rogues are my biggest issue right now because they are plentiful and they tear through everything I've got, resilience or no. It's not so much their burst DPS so much as all the new tools they have to stop me from healing (like the debuff that seemingly doubles the cast time on my spells) that is problematic. And with no way to prevent it from happening even briefly (like a Priest, Paladin or Druid healer can) I'm pretty much royally screwed.

[Yatokth]

Resilience DOES make a difference to my survivability, it's just that to be as survivable as you used to be in the Burning Crusade you've got to have that much more of it. I've tried healing in PvE gear and all that does is make me that much easier to kill by classes that usually have a bit more trouble killing me in my PvP gear, like Warriors and Ret Paladins. The only time I wear my raid gear to a PvP fight is Wintergrasp when I'm with a big raid group.

Rogues are my biggest issue right now because they are plentiful and they tear through everything I've got, resilience or no. It's not so much their burst DPS so much as all the new tools they have to stop me from healing (like the debuff that seemingly doubles the cast time on my spells) that is problematic. And with no way to prevent it from happening even briefly (like a Priest, Paladin or Druid healer can) I'm pretty much royally screwed.

This will likely never happen.

[Advurb]

Remember again that the resil cap is over 1000. Also keep in mind that resil works in such a way that having 400 instead of 300 will make a much bigger difference than having 300 instead of 200. The closer you get to that cap, the more each point affects you.

Pretty much unrelated: WTB more arms warrior teams (read: free wins)

[Chikt]

Remember again that the resil cap is over 1000. Also keep in mind that resil works in such a way that having 400 instead of 300 will make a much bigger difference than having 300 instead of 200. The closer you get to that cap, the more each point affects you.

Pretty much unrelated: WTB more arms warrior teams (read: free wins)

I have 598 resilience now, 703 when my new Beserker Deck gets 3 stacks, and I am noticing a pretty substantial difference in my survivability.

That is, against everything but Rogues. Rogues still eat me for breakfast.

[Advurb]

Exactly, and even with those procs you're still 500 away from cap. Also, Yat, direct me to the magical death knights that can break cc and do more damage than any other class.

[Yatokth]

Exactly, and even with those procs you're still 500 away from cap. Also, Yat, direct me to the magical death knights that can break cc and do more damage than any other class.

They don't outright break it, but they get around it. See:

A. Chains of Ice > Other snares
B. AMS / AMZ destroys magical snares or CC easy
C. Death Grip can get people back to you when you are kited.

Their damage certainly isn't quite as impressive as a rogue or a mage or a retadin, or even a warrior, but their burst is still very powerful, especially when gargoyle is up. I also didn't SAY "do more damage than any other class" I said high BURST DAMAGE.

It's these things combined with the fact that their survivability is fucking insane, with self-healing and all their shield walls, that makes them quite overpowered atm.

[Advurb]

They don't outright break it, but they get around it. See:

A. Chains of Ice > Other snares
B. AMS / AMZ destroys magical snares or CC easy
C. Death Grip can get people back to you when you are kited.


I'll give you that CoI needs a DR badly.

AMS -prevents- MAGICAL cc, but it only lasts 5 seconds and any smart player will try to get them to waste it. It's basically an inferior clos. AMZ only stops damage, not debuffs, and it restricts you to a pretty small raidus. Great for survivability, but say goodbye to being able to do damage while inside it.

At least in my team, I find DG to be more valuable for keeping enemies off my teammate (rogue). Viiper's good enough so that I can rely on him to win rogue vs. rogue 90% of the time, but if the other rogue is human or he has some bad luck (tab target sometimes has downs) I'm able to negate the opener completely. I rarely use DG when being kited; I'd much rather just hide behind the nearest pillar and reset the fight.

[Yatokth]

I'll give you that CoI needs a DR badly.

AMS -prevents- MAGICAL cc, but it only lasts 5 seconds and any smart player will try to get them to waste it. It's basically an inferior clos. AMZ only stops damage, not debuffs, and it restricts you to a pretty small raidus. Great for survivability, but say goodbye to being able to do damage while inside it.

At least in my team, I find DG to be more valuable for keeping enemies off my teammate (rogue). Viiper's good enough so that I can rely on him to win rogue vs. rogue 90% of the time, but if the other rogue is human or he has some bad luck (tab target sometimes has downs) I'm able to negate the opener completely. I rarely use DG when being kited; I'd much rather just hide behind the nearest pillar and reset the fight.

This is what CC is often used for. ;)

And keep in mind an inferior clos is better than no clos.

[Tsu]

I'll give you that CoI needs a DR badly.

AMS -prevents- MAGICAL cc, but it only lasts 5 seconds and any smart player will try to get them to waste it. It's basically an inferior clos. AMZ only stops damage, not debuffs, and it restricts you to a pretty small raidus. Great for survivability, but say goodbye to being able to do damage while inside it.

At least in my team, I find DG to be more valuable for keeping enemies off my teammate (rogue). Viiper's good enough so that I can rely on him to win rogue vs. rogue 90% of the time, but if the other rogue is human or he has some bad luck (tab target sometimes has downs) I'm able to negate the opener completely. I rarely use DG when being kited; I'd much rather just hide behind the nearest pillar and reset the fight.

anyone halfway decent will have AMS glyphed for 10 sec of blissfully free beatdown on anything they choose. And I think it's much better than CloS for the fact that it makes you *immune* as opposed to 90% resist. I've seen all sorts of magic effects go through cloak before, it's not as reliable sadly. AMZ isn't for you, it's for your team, and it absolutely rapes any sort of magical burst that can be thrown out which is a lifesaver.

And lastly, rogues tear through anything and everything right now, so it's not just shaman.

I've seen my 500+ resil pally (this is a PLATE wearer with a SHIELD mind you) go from 100-10 in a cheap shot from a single mut rogue.

[Catilyn]

No. Anti-Magic Shell does NOT work like Cloak of Shadows.

Anti-Magic Shell (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48707)
= 1min Base Cooldown. (45sec in the patch)
= 75% Decreases Damage from magical attacks (100% if talented)
= Does not dispell any current debuffs on use.
= Is not affected by Spell Penetration.
= Does not remove any spells on use. Makes you immune to any for the duration.

Cloak of Shadows (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31224)
= 1Min 30sec Base Cooldown.
= 90% Increase to resist debuffs and magical damage. (This is why if say, Curse of Agony was cast and failed it would say it was "Resisted")
= Dispells all current magic debuffs on use.
= Chance to resist can be deceased depending on the enemies Spell Penetration.

Both abilities are to vulnerable to spells like Chaos Bolt (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=59172).


The Anti-Magic Shell Glyph (Link to current (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43533)) is being changed in the patch to just +2 second duration, no longer affects cooldown.
(In other words, debatably worse compared to some of the other Glyphs available)

I should also note, Tsu, that Anti-Magic Shell only makes you immune to all spell damage if you took 5/5 Magic Suppression (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49614) in the Unholy tree.
Without the talent, it decreses magical damage by 75%

[Yichimet]

I find that instead of resilience, my biggest savior is making sure I'm on my wyvern and flying up FAST when a DK jumps me. (*waves at Catilyn*)

[Catilyn]

Ahahaha! xD
That was you? ^^;;;

[Advurb]

= Makes you immune to any for the duration.

= 90% Increase to resist debuffs and magical damage.


I repeat: AMS is inferior clos.

[Catilyn]

Actually, I was responding to Tsu's post.

[Tylorvias]

Likely they'll either buff resilience or nerf damage.

Nerfing damage would affect PvE and cause scaling issues in both aspects of the game later on down the line, and it would additionally be ALOT harder to balance to nerf everyone's damage.

So if they end up doing anything, it will be buffing resilience.

Gotta honestly say I would rather they just nerf damage. I actively PvP as well as raid. Raiding is too easy anymore as cc just means dmg now with no polymorphing or trapping. In nerfing dmg just a tad I think they could fix two issues at the same time.

[Chikt]

I'm sitting at around 888 resilience now (with the buff from my trinket) and still pretty much get insta-gibbed by Rogues in the span of a single stun. If I need to reach the resilience cap to mitigate their damage this early then I think there's a pretty massive problem. Mages are much the same.

[Advurb]

I'm sitting at around 888 resilience now (with the buff from my trinket) and still pretty much get insta-gibbed by Rogues in the span of a single stun.

I have no idea how this happens, Viiper and I have trouble with resto shaman teams fairly often because they just don't die.

[Yatokth]

I have no idea how this happens, Viiper and I have trouble with resto shaman teams fairly often because they just don't die.

They likely have more healing than Dio does.

[Kaliera]

Actually, I was responding to Tsu's post.

If you were responding to Tsu, you missed the point of his message. I quote both posts for the sake of my own ease in swapping pages:



anyone halfway decent will have AMS glyphed for 10 sec of blissfully free beatdown on anything they choose. And I think it's much better than CloS for the fact that it makes you *immune* as opposed to 90% resist. I've seen all sorts of magic effects go through cloak before, it's not as reliable sadly. AMZ isn't for you, it's for your team, and it absolutely rapes any sort of magical burst that can be thrown out which is a lifesaver.

And lastly, rogues tear through anything and everything right now, so it's not just shaman.

I've seen my 500+ resil pally (this is a PLATE wearer with a SHIELD mind you) go from 100-10 in a cheap shot from a single mut rogue.



No. Anti-Magic Shell does NOT work like Cloak of Shadows.

Anti-Magic Shell (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48707)
= 1min Base Cooldown. (45sec in the patch)
= 75% Decreases Damage from magical attacks (100% if talented)
= Does not dispell any current debuffs on use.
= Is not affected by Spell Penetration.
= Does not remove any spells on use. Makes you immune to any for the duration.

Cloak of Shadows (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31224)
= 1Min 30sec Base Cooldown.
= 90% Increase to resist debuffs and magical damage. (This is why if say, Curse of Agony was cast and failed it would say it was "Resisted")
= Dispells all current magic debuffs on use.
= Chance to resist can be deceased depending on the enemies Spell Penetration.

Both abilities are to vulnerable to spells like Chaos Bolt (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=59172).


The Anti-Magic Shell Glyph (Link to current (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43533)) is being changed in the patch to just +2 second duration, no longer affects cooldown.
(In other words, debatably worse compared to some of the other Glyphs available)

I should also note, Tsu, that Anti-Magic Shell only makes you immune to all spell damage if you took 5/5 Magic Suppression (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49614) in the Unholy tree.
Without the talent, it decreses magical damage by 75%


He wasn't insinuating that the mechanics of AMS are like CloS, his statement was that AMS is superior, and to an extent I would agree.

When Tsu makes the comment that magic will occasionally slip through CloS but not AMS, he's refering to magical debuffs, not damage. Talented or not, a DK with AMS running is flat out immune to magical debuffs for the entire duration. There's no praying for the 10% chance to not hit when chasing the frost mage with shattered barrier talented and frost armor running. There's no hoping that the priest's fear doesn't slip through. With AMS, it flat out doesn't slip through. That's incredibly potent.

To add icing to the cake, it innately lasts as long as cloak, and has a 1 minute cooldown, all with the potential to be glyphed for even greater use.

On the subject of resil, I'm starting to see it becoming rather potent with certain classes. Shamans and Priests are the most noticeable, as they have passive healing options to compliment their increased crit resistance. Granted, they also need to have pretty hefty spell power to tie in with the resilience, but the effectiveness is glimmering through, kind of.

[Chikt]

They likely have more healing than Dio does.

It's not Spelldamage that is the problem I don't think, it's the way that Shaman can be locked down. Smart stuns can keep us totally locked up, and we have three ways out - a lucky resist, using a trinket, or being an Orc.

You've seen that I've been able to keep myself up fairly well against the slower-DPS rogues, but there are still some that just rip me up when they use EVERYTHING the moment they get out of stealth. I trinket out of their first kidney shot and somehow I'm stunned again and absolutely fucked.

All extra healing would do is make the heals I actually got off in the time that a rogue was attacking me heal me for more. But getting the heals actually OFF is an issue in and of itself because if we're not stunned then we're locked down with kicks or blinds until the Rogue sees fit to attack us again.

Of course, this is just my experience. How exactly do they survive Advurb? Maybe one of us is doing something wrong.

[Advurb]

How exactly do they survive Advurb? Maybe one of us is doing something wrong.

Well I think most Shamans know they will be targeted, so they probably riptide before they get opened on. Faking heals is a must, it takes practice to be able to do without getting killed, but it will solve a lot of problems. Also, obviously, Earth Shield is huge. If you run with a ret paladin, shadow priest, etc, have them assist in heals if things get dicey. Beyond that I'm not totally sure, but I will start paying more attention. My role vs healer teams is usually just keeping people off Viiper so he can rape the healer, or keeping the healer off the target so Viiper can rape the other guy. :P

[Kredorian]

Lail your story...makes me feel bad for how many times a undergeared melee as wailed away at me for 5 minutes or more, and I don't even PvP in PvP gear, t6 is just to nice.

Pretty much I got to say what Yat said, keep on trucking through it. When I respeced Ret before the "Ret was god" patch it was insanely tough to pvp for the gear. I had mediocre gear and hell no Ret dps trinkets or rings or necklace. I couldn't kill shiz unless it was near my gear level or I had help. I also went from being top healer to bottom of the barrel dmg done on BG stats which was a little demoralizing. I PvPed it out to get most of S2, S4 gloves from left over points in my arena good time days and a few accessories (never got a dps trinket though). My hard work payed off and I ran competitive on the charts once again (ok it helped getting epic t6 quality dps PvE plate gear sew me >.> ) so I think it as to do a lot with having some patience.

Heck if PvP is so demoralizing PvE for awhile and get decent gear there. Then go PvP, you will hit like a truck still but...well be rather squishie but makes it better off then sitting through the grind with mediocre gear. Though from what it sounds I am not to sure if thats as doable as it was in BC




/agree 100 percent with this entire statement... although I had fun as ret when it wasnt god... just because it was tough made it enjoyable... and prob helped me get better... :-)