A rant about Season 5...

[Selash]

Alright, after reading the final announcement today by Blizzard (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13392255320&sid=1) on how purchasing the new Gladiator sets will work, I do have a few grievances I'd like to air about the game now;

Bad Idea #1: Forcing Arena participation for gear.
For what fun arenas can be, not all of us like to get our asses handed to us and watch our ratings crumble because we are seemingly paired with a 'losing' partner or partner(s). On top of that, the flavors arenas come in also force group participation for PvP, and it seems that a lot of people (myself included) have been having problems finding partners for teams, because a lot of people are holding over their previous partners from the BC arenas. This counters one of WoW's strongest sell points; you can do endgame PvP on your own if you really want to. Which leads to...

Bad Idea #2: Forced grouping for PvP.
Speaking as a seasoned MMO player, any game that forces you to group for essential progression is a bad idea. Final Fantasy XI is a great example of this by making you level up past Lv.10 (to a cap of 75) in groups by making mobs that are worth XP to you impossible to solo and mobs that are possible for you to solo worth no XP. It's one of the reasons why I quit XI, and I'd hate to see WoW go down the same path, especially with PvP being one of the things I enjoy a lot.

Now, with how the Season is shaping up and how the gear's been designed, I see some potentially easy fixes for this which I'm hoping Blizzard will see and implement;

Fix #1: Remove the arena point costs for Savage Gladiator sets and the rating requirements for the Hateful Gladiator sets/offset items.
This will allow players who can't get into ranked arena matches to obtain a decent set of PvP gear while still reserving the epic arena gear for that rabid hardcore crowd that they seemingly have been catering to more than I'd like them to. If balance is an issue, the honor cost of the Savage set can be doubled to compensate for the arena point cost removal.

Or...

Fix #2: Add a one on one bracket to the arenas.
This should speak for itself; it will allow arena participation for people unable to obtain partners and a means for people to raise their personal rating should it tank with a group rating.

[Keraph]

A few counterpoints I'm sure other's will be jumping on as well, starting from the bottom:

1: PvP is not, nor has ever been, balanced for 1v1. You'd see a very obvious class trend in 1v1 brackets that would have nothing to do with skill or gear, just counterclasses.

2: Hateful glad should keep it's low rating req, because I was phyiscally sickened back in the day when I would see people in a mix of quest greens and PvP epics, dual s2 weapons, in a team with a 1100 rating named "Will lose for points". Not only do those people not deserve gear, they don't deserve the oxygen levels required to sustain human life. Just sayin.

Arenas ARE a mix of personal ability, gear, and probably both the most important and preventative, composition. Even if you don't have all three, you should be able to maintain a good enough raiting to obtain at least partial Hateful. If you aren't able to keep your rating up that high, you may want to look at your personal performace, team performance, gear level, and composition.

3: You cannot do endgame PvP on your own, not even if you really want to. You can do a lot of PvP solo, but arenas are considered the "endgame" of PvP, and that seems to be the way Blizzard intends to keep it.

More to come, busy at work

Another!
WoW does not force you to group for essential progression. Leveling to 80 and getting decent gear is essential progression. Getting epics in PvP and PvE is not essential progression, it's endgame progression. WoW, as almost all MMOs, has always forced group play for endame progression

[Taknar]

I think they should just add a "PUG" bracket, similar to the skirmish, only you get automatically set up in a team of 2s, 3s, or 5s (your choice) and then a team is built around you and you fight another team constructed in the same way.

Assign arena points at the end of the week based on personal pug rating, if that is your highest rating.

I also would challenge the assertion that you could solo PvP endgame in TBC. Lagging two seasons behind was really noticeable, and everything else required arena points.

Although I have to be honest when I say that I have a lot of trouble believe a fellow member of Raven Cross can't find an arena buddy. I don't see a thread on the guild forums about seeking one out, for example.

[Leoren]

I do find it a little odd the base level PvP gear also required arena points. It certainly made it appear a whole lot less appealing a set to work up from. That said, I don't think it's exactly a secret what Blizz is trying to do here. While wanting PvP epics to have more meaning than they did in the last few seasons, they do want to give those who get their 10 arena games in a week something substantial for their efforts. By adding arena points to the price of the lowest set of PvP gear, otherwise modest efforts are rewarded with gear a fresh 80 upstart couldn't farm up in an AV weekend. Removing the hateful gladiator rating requirement really would defeat the purpose of even having the entry level PvP gear, because let's face it, for double the price? You can bet that the majority of players will save up for the epics instead.

Throughout WoW's history, PvP Gear has been often branded as the red headed step children that are 'welfare epics', largely in part due to the far fewer amount of people required to be organized for arena games in comparison to raiding. Given that everything else seems to suggest that Blizzard is trying to move AWAY from PvP gear being deemed solely as welfare hand me downs by raising the requirements, the idea of Blizzard introducing a bracket of arena that would remove the team work and organisation element entirely is simply something I can't believe they'd ever consider. Not to mention the systemic imbalances that would plague those matches.

Blizzard's own rational for class balance revolves around group play. You need only wander outside of Orgrimmar for the constant reminder that certain classes enjoy blatant advantages over others. They've already said they would have redone the system without the 2s bracket if they could start over, as some of those imbalances are more pronounced with the fewer numbers than those of the 3v3 or 5v5 brackets. If Blizzard added a 1v1 bracket, in a world of ( post BC ) Ret Paladins, Mages and Death Knights, trust me when I say it would not go well for you Selash.

[Selash]

Alright, most of the points you all raise are valid and I'll accept them. And Tak, every single time I've mentioned I'm looking for an arena partner in RavenOOC, I've gotten the following responses:

1. Silence
2. "Oh, I'm paired with [insert another RC member here]."
3. "I'm not interested in 3s or 5s."

And while I did have Khojal as a planned partner, he's had to unexpectedly quit WoW for the time being because of RL concerns. Where does this leave me? Between a rock and a hard place, essentially. And while I do have a partner now, I know that a Hunter x Hunter combination generally will flop in the 2s bracket, especially against a group with a healer of some kind. (Not that I doubt Laras' ability at PvP, I just know from experience running 2s in BC that healer groups are difficult to kill.)

[NotMaithanet]

I think the biggest issue is that Arena has ALWAYS been horribly lopsided. S1 was Holy Paladin / Arms Warrior etc etc etc. Now we'll see RISE OF THE DEATH KNIGHTS and whatever healing class can hold up the best.

Personally, I'm thinking Ret Paladin / Unholy Death Knight / Resto Druid is going to own the threes. Maybe replace Ret Paladin with Arcane Mage. Good luck to the other specs.

As for the growing BG redundancy? I don't like it.

[Selash]

In all honesty, Maith, I'd rather be running BGs or doing world PvP than running Arenas. Although part of that might have been the fact that I ended S4 with a bad taste in my mouth and a rating of 1300-1400.

[Taknar]

And Tak, every single time I've mentioned I'm looking for an arena partner in RavenOOC, I've gotten the following responses:

I would never ever use a non-static (read as: goes away after logout) medium to plan something I intended to do for a few months. I leave in channel requests for small groups, maybe a pugged 10 man, and to fill in positions for a raid already semi-formed. There is a reason why raid signups are generally done through a forum.


Regarding the hunter/hunter pair, you should have a good headstart before the nerfs come in. Healers in early wrath arena aren't going to be as much of a problem as they were late BC arena because without the healer or their targets having substantial resiliance, the DPS scales much better than the heals. One of you take silencing shot, and I promise you will be able to take out a target in the 4 seconds that the healer can't cast. It seems to be the number one complaint on the healer forums right now.

[Naheal]

The issue that I have with requiring arena ratings for gear is the same issue that I had back during BC: You'll get people who rush themselves up to 2k+ and get their gear, then restart their teams and "help" their friends get geared up. That's a major hit to those of us who haven't managed to get up to the higher brackets yet (for whatever reason), but still have the skill required to get said gear. From then on, it's not a fair fight, nor will it ever be.

At this point, to say that gear isn't an issue, I'll point out one thing: Resil is low right now. Those of us who don't have the PvP gear don't have the resil to take too many hits ourselves. Especially against a fully PvP geared opponent.

[Resinous]

Finding a good partner can be hard but, its also a good part of the game if you look at it right. Instead of just asking people you know or people in your guild, go out and journey to different cities and search for a partner. I've seen lots of skilled pvper's that didn't have an arena team. Or find someone not skilled and train them up, you would be helping them and yourself at the same time. But yeah, if your impatient and want it now, like most things in life it may not be as good.

As for a one vs one bracket, I'd like to see this too. I would want it to be broken down though like, 1v1 mage bracket and 1v1 shaman bracket. Wouldn't care if it gave points, I just think it would be cool to find out who the best of each class in on the battlegroup. Thats really the only way to avoid the counter class issue though in 1v1.

[Agnarr]

I personally don't have the desire to do arenas. I PVP recreationally (BGs every now and then).
So now I'm guessing in a few weeks I won't want to do BGs either, as I won't get any reward from it (as you need arena points for every piece of PVP gear now? - can't read the Blizz post as the page isn't coming up) and the people I'm going against will just get stronger.

Edit:
Okay, finally got the page to load and could read.
Um, sounds the same as it's always been. You get your welfare PVP gear (blues for now) from BGs and you get your shiny epix in arenas.

Edit pt. 2:
I just re-read it. Yay, arena points for blues. Effing weak. I rescind my original edit and return to my original post.

[Leoren]

Alright, most of the points you all raise are valid and I'll accept them. And Tak, every single time I've mentioned I'm looking for an arena partner in RavenOOC, I've gotten the following responses:

1. Silence
2. "Oh, I'm paired with [insert another RC member here]."
3. "I'm not interested in 3s or 5s."

There was a time where that was my response. BC Ret Paladin. I'm not trying to be unsympathetic, but getting frustrated and angry about it won't do you any good. My honest advice is if your current circle of friends doesn't present an optimal setup, look outside aggressively for those who'd be interested. That's the -only- way I got good games back in the day.

Yes it's hard, yes it's frustrating. But when it comes to Arena, sure you'll find folks who'll help you get games in and try to push your rank up ( Many in the RC know I practically devoted my 2v2 slot for this very purpose for guildies in the past ), but don't expect anyone to be dragged along in a serious competitive team unless A). You're good at what you do and B). You fill the team composition your team's aiming for. I already know that you're promising at what you play Selash, and with 80 Arenas only JUST coming out? Who knows what team composition will really excel with a hunter. So all I can say at this point is man and chin up. Work with what you've got and don't limit your options.

The fact I've solid plans for arena with guildies, let alone friends I hold dearly? That would have been unheard of for me a year ago. But after much perseverance I lucked out with Anorah for my 2s, an amazing PvPer who I work really well with. There is no list of people I'd rather work with now. I'm sure you'll find your team(s) eventually.

[NotMaithanet]

I think Leoren wants Anorah to have his babies. I approve.

[Leoren]

I think Leoren wants Anorah to have his babies. I approve.

As do I.

We'll call them, 'Reck 'Bomber' Jr.' and 'Hojetta'.

[NotMaithanet]

See, if we were basing kids off of Arena partners does that mean Evanthe and I would have a kid nicknamed Smitestrike? I'm not really sure where you can go with kid names for a Priest and Paladin.

I imagine I'm missing the glaringly obvious.,

[Emmons]

Holy frackin' crap, heaven forbid we should have to rely on others in a multiplayer game.

[Anorah]

As do I.

We'll call them, 'Reck 'Bomber' Jr.' and 'Hojetta'.

No to Hojetta. If it's a girl, it will be Wrathalica, hammer of.

[Gorymoru]

Blimey...I be feelin' a lot of hatred comin' my way. >.> Not sayin I don't deserve...but I wasn't aware that it bothered you that much mate.

[Leyujin]

I'm not particularly worried about this, because if this implementation is a total flop, then it will be reversed. But I do think it's a bad idea. There's really no reason why a blue set should require arena points... except for the one that's been pointed out on the forums.

Blizzard needs fodder teams to keep the system working. Whether this is true or not, I don't have the experience to know. But Naheal said Gladiator teams reformed and romped their way back up through the 1500s. I've heard that on the forums as well. So by word of mouth, it seems that a lot of the people last season at the 1500 rankings didn't think it was worth their time, and dropped out.

If that's the case, and all the 1500s drop out, that means the 1600s become the 1500s. The 1700s become the 1600s. So on until everything's dropped a rank down. This is a perfect way to get people to pad the bottom, actually, to force them to if they want the gear. That's the primary reason I disagree with it. I've had the same problems as Selash, although I might have a RL friend to arena with this season should I want to. And I think it's stupid for composition to be necessary to PvP. I think it's obvious that gear can vastly overpower skill... so can spec. Two mages with epic gear specced properly will instagib an offspec in blues, and there is absolutely no skill in that. And if you had to deal with that in every arena, I don't see the point in playing it at all.

My final opposition is to the idea of arenas in general, more because of ideological reasons, I suppose. This is WARcraft. You can say the name doesn't have anything to do with the game, but I wasn't aware that fighting in an arena as gladiators was the be all end all of a game about war between factions. Why is my fighting against another Horde group going to get me the best armor for fighting other players, especially when I should be fighting Alliance? Wintergrasp was a great development in advancing world pvp, and honestly that's what the model should be for pvp, although obviously it needs improvement. But this system makes it so someone who only spends time in Arenas will have better PVP gear than someone actually fighting the opposite faction in the world. Then, should those Arena people decide to actually go to a BG, Wintergrasp, etc, they will be vastly superior in gear to anyone fighting there. Arenas seems more like an attempt to make WoW a profitable E-sport, which is a noble financial effort (hahaha), but stupid in all other categories. If you really want to fight against your own faction, the arena in STV has been there for ages. It allows for 2v2s, 3v3s, 5v5s, and even 4v4s.

There's nearly 40 pages on the main WoW forums about this, and I've read most of them. The majority is people saying they dislike this development. So do I. There's no way I'll quit this game over it, as I enjoy the RP aspects, as well as PvE. It's also churlish to get worked up over it too much. But I think the people responding in this thread should realize there are many people out there who disagree with them, for a variety of reasons. I don't mind if you enjoy arenas, but I think your opinions that the rest of us need to learn how to adapt to them in order to *properly* pvp are wrong. Hopefully I've voiced my opinion respectfully.

All that aside, Blizzard needs to make it possible to kill your own faction if they're afking in a battleground. That kill will subtract honor points and marks from the AFKer. I jest, because I have no idea how you would implement this, but it would be OH SO GOOD.

[NotMaithanet]

This just in. Arena Points requirement removed from Season 5 blue set.

[Taknar]

Buar? Not that I'm complaining but where you seein' that information?

[NotMaithanet]

I'm seeing it in game. 60,000 for every piece ecept shoulders at 50,000 if memory serves me right. Prices are pretty steep.

Last minute maintenance my ass.

[Taknar]

I'm seeing it in game. 60,000 for every piece ecept shoulders at 50,000 if memory serves me right. Prices are pretty steep.

Last minute maintenance my ass.

Oh my. I'd rather have the arena points required, thanks.

Not that I have any idea which character I want to PvP on, if any at all. Shaman, priest or DK people?

[NotMaithanet]

You can still get them that way, it seems. We're just learning this as we all look around. So there is two ways to get the blue set.

Doesnt yet look like the Wintergrasp Marks stuff is in yet.

[Okhu]

Waaah. amirite.

[Advurb]

Fix #2: Add a one on one bracket to the arenas.
This should speak for itself; it will allow arena participation for people unable to obtain partners and a means for people to raise their personal rating should it tank with a group rating.

I don't think you understand how it works. Personal rating is a rating you have personally. Each team you're a part of gives you a different personal rating. This is in place to stop people from selling a 2k team spot to some 1300r so he can buy all of his epics and leave.

[Advurb]

Oh my. I'd rather have the arena points required, thanks.

Not that I have any idea which character I want to PvP on, if any at all. Shaman, priest or DK people?

DK definitely, if not that then shaman

[Yatokth]

The only beef I have with season 5 is that there's no Savage or Hateful (blue or ten man epic) WEAPONS.

Raiding weapons were already BETTER, now you HAVE to raid to get a decent weapon... fail.

[Korangar]

Yes, I don't want to have to raid to get the weapons.

I have faith though that Blizzard will hear that cry and add something pretty quick.

[Swerto]

I honestly like the fact that they force us to group up with GOOD players and achieve goals. It's like...-gasp- HOW YOU GET RAIDING GEAR!

[Okhu]

Playing with people on an MMO?... WHAT IS THIS BLASPHEMY.

[Tillna]

If it makes you feel any better...I have no teams..*Eyes Keraph*

Looking for frost DK for 2's..><

[Keraph]

You can buy the season 5 blue set in two ways. One, with pure honor, at what, 60,000h a piece? And two, with a mixture of honor and arena points, 400-600 points per piece (ish), and like, 9,000-12,000 honor points.

[Advurb]

DK/rogue/mage in 3s, hope it works.

[Ryoku]

I honestly like the fact that they force us to group up with GOOD players and achieve goals. It's like...-gasp- HOW YOU GET RAIDING GEAR!

Yes.

However, Blizzard's descision here really does tweak me, if only because my lack of Wrath is causing me to be a good bit behind in the race.

at 80 I can either.

1. Try to form up an arena team with no viable arena gear (I'm not one of them lucky kids who gets to start PvPing in his brutal), and suck my way to blue gear, then proceed to anti-suck my way to epix.

OR

2. Play boring, repetitive BGs non-stop for about 4 months until I aquire enough pieces of the same blue gear to be competitive in arenas.

No thanks, I'll just raid.

EDIT: I have no clue how much honor/arena points are accumilated on average anymore, though. My opinion changes drastically if they changed this from TBC.

[Agnarr]

EDIT: I have no clue how much honor/arena points are accumilated on average anymore, though. My opinion changes drastically if they changed this from TBC.

I've done wintergrasp several times, and AV a couple of times since the expansion came out. I bought a PVP necklace yesterday for 38k honor and still have 20kish left over.
Honor comes pretty quick.
Can't comment on arenas nor their points.

[Keraph]

Keep in mind also that there is are crafted, Superior quality PvP armor sets for all armor types and specs. I'm not sure how well the others are itemized, but the Savage Saronite gear (not to be confused with savage glad gear) is chock full of strength, stamina, crit, and of course resilience. It's not ultraleet, but it's still very solid starting gear

[Taknar]

They also artificially raised the honour cap by allowing you to get these tokens that contain 2k honour.

Now that I'm 80, I'm looking forward to some Wintergrasp, personally.

[Fhenrir]

I'm of the opinion that the first arena season in any new expansion that raises the level cap and resets the gear will always be a joke.

Good example: 10 man Kel'thuzad drops an axe that is just as good (arguably better) than the new top tier arena weapons requiring over 2k personal rating. We've played 11 games and Kali has been using an axe he prefers to the arena ones the whole time already.


I personally am going to treat S1 like the joke it is, and be distraught if it doesn't start to get a little more balanced and/or entertaining come S2.

[Taknar]

Hey, I'm relying on that joke to get up to 1800 rating! That, and a ret paladin. (Bring the flames Leoren, it's cold here in Canada xD )

To be serious though, is this the kind of environment that I want to be learning to PvP in, or should I sit off to the side a bit and let all the whackos get their kicks for a bit?

[Advurb]

I'd go ahead and start learning. If you don't know other classes' spells, arena behavior, etc.. you should really start learning. Just because it's low-resil/pve gear season doesn't mean principles like line of sight, knowing what class to target, etc are void. You'd be surprised how much you can learn about other classes just by doing arena for a month or two.

[Taknar]

My brother Gandrin taught me how to pillar hump about a month before wrath came out. This was on my priest. It is such a pain in the ass.

I guess I have to start building up my PvE focus and my PvP focus. Damn, I want dual specs. (Although then I have to make the choice between PvE DPS, PvE Tanking and PvP. All in the Frost tree! I love death knights XD )

[Daly]

You'd be surprised how much you can learn about other classes just by doing arena for a month or two.

I learned that "Target the Shadowpriest first" is a viable strategy ever since S2. Hell, even I did it, and I was one.

WHAT MORE CAN YOU TEACH ME CODE-EYO?!?!

On topic, I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I expect S5 to be all about DPS/Melee teams. DKs have insane interrupts, Warriors have Execute-spam (90% health? LOL Sudden death!), rogues never had much problem with casters, Ret is bursting like mad at the moment, etc. I know mages can burst, but once a melee gets on top of them, things seem to go bad quickly.

I suspect changes will be made, but healing currently seems marginal and slow-developing DPS (ala DOts) just can't survive burst trains. To be fair, I hated playing 3 hour games against warlock/druids too, but Blizzard, in my ever so humble opinion just turned the needle to far the other way.

[Advurb]

Melee looks pretty ridiculous, I agree. Priests and Warlocks in particular are almost worthless.

Although S1 was also dps-dominated.

[drippygoo]

Arena in all its messed up glory ruined WoW pvp.

[Advurb]

Arena in all its messed up glory ruined WoW pvp.

Incorrect. Cross-realm BGs ruined WoW PvP but luckily Blizzard fixed it with Arena.

[Fhenrir]

Since I have a large piece to say on that shortly, I've made a new topic for just such a thing here (http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?p=252996#post252996).