PvP evolution in WotLK

[Malebrignon]

To keep the Naxx topic about raiding....

What are folks' preliminary thoughts on the evolution of PvP in WotLK?

More of the same grind? Same problems with idiots and AFKers?

Are there not enough folks at 80 yet to know about queue times for pre-mades?

Are new talents leaving a class build or two as unquestionable masters of PvP?

I spent over a year of my WoW time doing almost non-stop BGs with my hunter to the point where I was so burnt out when Arenas were finally implemented that I'd lost most of my desire to PvP. Add to that my computer wasn't quite up-to-snuff for TBC and I had all sorts of nasty lag and graphical issues that made me feel like I was gimping any arena team I joined. Maybe I just need to read the PvP forum a bit more, but I haven't heard much about PvP with the expansion and I'd like to know more.

[Swerto]

It'll be about a month brig before the real PvP starts. The next season is hitting, and at that time PvP will explode.

[Kaliera]

Wintergrasp brings about a whole different ballgame of AFKer issues. This time, AFK players aren't just not contributing, they're actively HELPING the other faction by not participating.

The tenacity buff in it's current state grants the faction with less players an HP, healing recieved, and damage done buff at a percentage based on how outnumbered the faction is. There have been reports of 60k HP ret paladins soloing 10-15 horde due to the immense amount of damage and healing recieved by Divine Storm. I'm willing to bet the buff will be toned down, but it's still disgusting that non-participating players not only bring their team down now, but they help the opposition. Brilliant.

[Qabian]

There are also new areas to do daily quests in where if there aren't any opposing faction players around you can still complete them, but if there are, you can use them for the killcounts. I love those places, I really do. Unlike the TBC world pvp dailies, these are actually possible to do every day. Not as fun without the people to fight, but hey, at least you can do them.

[Muatah]

I think it's too early to say(at least on our Server), but I suspect it will be more or less the same, Brig. Same good parts, same problems.

Defenses increase, then new Arena and Raiding gear gets released that chops/spells right through it.

In the final days of TBC(after the Ret nerf) it was Mages who were killing machines. Eventually they will get nerfed(or they already have been and I missed it), and something else will dominate. I'm sure there will be near unstoppable Team Compositions figured out sooner or later. That and the Rep Grind for gear are just part of the nature of the beast, as it were.

Wintergrasp I don't know much about. Haven't fought there yet.

[Sanrin]

Give it another month and a half, then judge. Its fine to speculate how things will go, but the game is still fresh and will need a lot of toning down. 'Release day' and 'Finalized game' are two very different things.

[Keraph]

People are pretty spot on with the "wait and see" attitude, as we really won't know until we get there, but it does seem like some of the problems PvPers had in BC were addressed to an extent in Wrath. Wintergrasp is extremely fun, I played with it extensively in the beta, but as stated it does have a few issues. Seeing as it's a completely new form of PvP in WoW, I imagine there is still a lot of tinkering to do.

What I like though is the fact that Lake Wintergrasp is the best palce in Northrend to farm mats. The elementals there drop crystalized elements like crazy, there's a ton of ore and herbs (including frost lotus as it's own herb), and blizzard did this for a reason. No matter what your role in WoW, be you a raider, PvPer, tradesman, whatever, you WANT your side to have control of Wintergrasp, because it makes it easier for you to get stuff. I think that will encourage regularly high numbers on both sides in the zone. Not enough to balance out the tenacity issues, but that problem is so obvious that there's no way it won't be addressed once more people have hit 80 and experienced it.

Overall I'm very excited for Wrath PvP, but we'll have to wait and see how things go.

[Sanrin]

I think if you're going to start looking for the signs to come you really need to look at a few of the things that broke Burning Crusade to an extent. Take a look at what really made a world pvp site successful, Nagrand is a prime example. Easy to access, in the center of a questing hub and surrounded by raw materials. That means in addition to the people who're going there to start a fight theres a very large chance that passerby might just join the fun as well, let alone when they added that dumb daily quest there. You cant just plop down a pvp zone and say 'there ya go, have fun'...people just wont do that. Take a key from Warhammer, and make those pvp zones almost mandatory to go through. Sure you can farm mats elsewhere, but maybe you'll go to the zone/area just because it looks nice. Or is easilly accessable.

Take a close look at item value jumps as well, Warcraft is an extremely gear centralized game. If you're going to be judging how the future will be, or the present will be effected its best not to look at things that'll change on a regular basis such as skills or damage numerics. Blizz will patch on a regular basis, most of the time not for the better. They do very little testing, we know that, so to look at patches and say 'this is the future' is a horrible way to do things Class imbalances due to their tweaks is going to happen no matter what. What will change things is the armor, how easy it is to get and how fast they're scaling it. Part of the reason why no one really noticed too much happening in BC pvp before it was too late was because we had JUST be introduced the idea of resil and extremely high hp. Most players in the game could barely fathom a 10k lifepool, let alone the idea that you could hit that number without ten different types of self and raid buffs. Thats standard now, but how high can or should it go? Damage scales with hp as well, almost pound for pound. A player with a ton more health generally does a ton more damage/healing...which as we all know will gradually give them an advantage to lesser equipped people. How much of an advantage is up in the air.

Warcraft is a pretty fantastic game in the fact that, while gear will make it easier to one shot others the mechanics are so simple that you can use multiple lower levels to take down a higher level. Some classes I never really got a handle on beating when their gear was on par with me 1v1, but playing on my alt with friends we were time and again able to overcome lv 70's with better equipment. As long as Warcraft allows you to play intelligently and overcome these massive numbers I feel the game will still be well balanced on the pvp front.

[Yatokth]

I'm optimistic about PvP, but I'm still going to wait and see.

I wager that arenas will be better than most people think, due to their new take on hybrids, and the number of tools they've given classes that previously did not have such things. One might look at this as homogenization, and in some cases it is, but it's a good thing, because it's keeping each class unique, yet competitive.

Now, I'm not stupid enough to say that top comps WON'T appear, but it was never impossible to go far with a less-played comp if you were good. I think WotLK PvP will be more dynamic simply because of the way they've changed classes, and also more skill-based. (As I've fortuitously seen throughout northrend)

[Styxen]

PvP in this game is mostly terrible, especially after playing other games that focus more on the PvP aspect. That's not to say oh it can't be fun, but you have to have gear to even have a remotely good time with it, as much fun as it is to get 2 shot before you even know what hit you.

On the plus side, at least most talents are moving away from RNG beat down. Though I am sure much of the "Serious PvP" of arenas will still be dominated by certain class compositions much as it has been. Where if you are the composition you will have an easy time getting a lot of points and easy access to gear. It's rather annoying to play a different composition and have to put in so much more effort and skill to get the same rating as the compositions that require very little effort to actually win. I would like most of that to just go.

BG's will always be grinding and always be boring just for the fact they are the same ones we have all had forever. It's the same map with the same objective, we get one new one with each expansion and that's it, and if that one sucks then oh well. Personally I hate EotS it's a terrible place to have to farm marks. Let's be honest that's all you do in BG's farm marks and honor, you don't do it for the greater good. There is no faction or personal reward for winning. No buff to the winner, no reduced prices for goods for winning, no incentive to do anything but show up.

Which brings up all the idiots in BG's, and yes I know right get a group and you don't have to worry about it. Well how often does it take you to find even 5 people to run an instance now I need 10-20 people to grind out the same place over and over and over again. It's very hard to do. There is always the idea you can just get a 'Pug' group for BG's but then it's the same damn thing as solo queing.

Overall I hate that PvP seems like a chore most of the time, it's still the same places which is probably my biggest gripe, I would hate to still be raiding MC so throw out some new BG's not that hard. Tokens for gear is awful because even if you don't hate EotS like I do I will care to bet you do hate at least one BG and don't want to run it very much, but most likely it's the token you need the most of for your pvp gears. It already costs like 30k honor for something don't tack on some other requirement with it, that's just dumb. The worst thing which won't show up till later is the gear requirements, it will be a little bit again before it starts happening but you will essentially need pvp gear to compete and not be blown out of the water. So if you start late you get to farm the same BG's getting slaughtered for a good couple months depending on how long you can stand being exploded in 3 hits to get gear where you can feel like you actually fight back in. Essentially I expect PvP in WotLK to pretty much be the same as it has always been.

[Yatokth]

PvP in this game is mostly terrible, especially after playing other games that focus more on the PvP aspect. That's not to say oh it can't be fun, but you have to have gear to even have a remotely good time with it, as much fun as it is to get 2 shot before you even know what hit you.

On the plus side, at least most talents are moving away from RNG beat down. Though I am sure much of the "Serious PvP" of arenas will still be dominated by certain class compositions much as it has been. Where if you are the composition you will have an easy time getting a lot of points and easy access to gear. It's rather annoying to play a different composition and have to put in so much more effort and skill to get the same rating as the compositions that require very little effort to actually win. I would like most of that to just go.

BG's will always be grinding and always be boring just for the fact they are the same ones we have all had forever. It's the same map with the same objective, we get one new one with each expansion and that's it, and if that one sucks then oh well. Personally I hate EotS it's a terrible place to have to farm marks. Let's be honest that's all you do in BG's farm marks and honor, you don't do it for the greater good. There is no faction or personal reward for winning. No buff to the winner, no reduced prices for goods for winning, no incentive to do anything but show up.

Which brings up all the idiots in BG's, and yes I know right get a group and you don't have to worry about it. Well how often does it take you to find even 5 people to run an instance now I need 10-20 people to grind out the same place over and over and over again. It's very hard to do. There is always the idea you can just get a 'Pug' group for BG's but then it's the same damn thing as solo queing.

Overall I hate that PvP seems like a chore most of the time, it's still the same places which is probably my biggest gripe, I would hate to still be raiding MC so throw out some new BG's not that hard. Tokens for gear is awful because even if you don't hate EotS like I do I will care to bet you do hate at least one BG and don't want to run it very much, but most likely it's the token you need the most of for your pvp gears. It already costs like 30k honor for something don't tack on some other requirement with it, that's just dumb. The worst thing which won't show up till later is the gear requirements, it will be a little bit again before it starts happening but you will essentially need pvp gear to compete and not be blown out of the water. So if you start late you get to farm the same BG's getting slaughtered for a good couple months depending on how long you can stand being exploded in 3 hits to get gear where you can feel like you actually fight back in. Essentially I expect PvP in WotLK to pretty much be the same as it has always been.

Gear is a factor in every aspect of any MMO, PvP or PvE, WoW or WAR, if you're not geared up as a tank, that boss is going to kick your ass harder than any player.

The grind sucks, yes, but you have to grind for PvE gear too, it's no different. You need PvP gear to PvP (SHOCK) and it's actually better in LK now that they have tiers of PvP gear in the same season, so you can get gear according to what you invest into the system, just as in PvE.

The reward for winning in BGs is more honor and marks, so that you can get your gear faster. There's lots of incentive, there just needs to be steeper penalties for /afking, such as simply booting people instead of giving them a debuff.

And yes, there are easier comps than others in arenas, that's simply unavoidable, and if you hate the system, that's your opinion, but some of us really enjoy the tactical aspects of it, and the challenge. Also, as I previously stated, I thnk it will be better this time around as Blizz knows what they're doing - remember in BC arena was a completely new experiment.

[Styxen]

The difference is that you can gear for PVE through lower levels raids at all times, once the population gets to the next few seasons that's what you will be fighting. You can't go back to basic starter low geared PVP where everyone is in similar gear.

It's like getting a fresh raid that just hit 70 and saying okay with your greens you can only gear up by doing BT and Sunwell you can't do Kara, Gruul, TK, anything lower than BT or Sunwell.

Call me jaded but Blizz had 2 years with their arenas they have been pretty well broken from day one until the end of BC I don't see it changing.

[Xaraphyne]

The difference is that you can gear for PVE through lower levels raids at all times, once the population gets to the next few seasons that's what you will be fighting. You can't go back to basic starter low geared PVP where everyone is in similar gear.

It's like getting a fresh raid that just hit 70 and saying okay with your greens you can only gear up by doing BT and Sunwell you can't do Kara, Gruul, TK, anything lower than BT or Sunwell.

Call me jaded but Blizz had 2 years with their arenas they have been pretty well broken from day one until the end of BC I don't see it changing.

Luckily, you can suck, lose, and still get gear!

[Yatokth]

Luckily, you can suck, lose, and still get gear!

This. You can't do that in PvE.

Let's not mention that the arena system does in fact support this kind of progression now, let's see.

Three tiers of arena gear:

Blue PvP set, no arena requirements: If you suck at arena, here you go! Blue gear.

Frist tier purple set, rating requirements ranging from ~1600 - ~1800 - Mid-tier purples, if you're good enough to get up here with your crafted blues or your first tier blues, then here you go! You may get cockblocked by a few geared peeps up near 1800, but you're going to get this first tier of purples so you can punch up there.

Second tier purple set ~2000 - ~2400 - At this point, you'll need all the gear you can get, each purple you break the rating for will matter, but you'll have to be good to get up there, though it's definitely still possible.

Yes, it helps to get in on the ground level, just as it does on raiding, but that doesn't mean it isn't impossible to climb the ranks even if you come in late.

Also, if you simply don't think PvP is at least decently balanced, then either review your viewpoint, or don't play. I'm thinking you're going to do the latter from your posts.

[Dewce]

Anyone encounter any crafty NE Druids since Shadowmeld was messed with?

[Anthek]

I love Wintergrasp and Strand of the Ancients. Managed to get the ten minute achievement yesterday, although I think that was because of the tenacity buff. They need to tone it down a little.

[Kained]

The lack of resilence at the moment.

[Yatokth]

The lack of resilence at the moment.

Is interesting, but altogether unneccessary.

Once it comes in it'll be a buff to me (warriors = doing better in longer fights) but I'm not clamoring for it exactly, I'm still winnin'. ;)

[Okhu]

Wintergrasp brings about a whole different ballgame of AFKer issues. This time, AFK players aren't just not contributing, they're actively HELPING the other faction by not participating.

At least its not from other-servers, so if Horde are AFKing in Wintergrasp you can give them hell about it for hte rest of thier gaming life if you REALLY want to do that.

[Alphaeus]

I actually like PvP now.
It took me a while to get the hang of Strand of the Ancients, but now that I 'get' it, it's great. I LOVE the race against the clock.
Though I hate that Horde always defends first. That's bullshit.



What I like though is the fact that Lake Wintergrasp is the best palce in Northrend to farm mats. The elementals there drop crystalized elements like crazy, there's a ton of ore and herbs (including frost lotus as it's own herb), and blizzard did this for a reason. No matter what your role in WoW, be you a raider, PvPer, tradesman, whatever, you WANT your side to have control of Wintergrasp, because it makes it easier for you to get stuff.

Note about this: when your team controls Wintergrasp, you can see the Revenants. They have a 100% drop rate for crystallized elements. I watched one I was fighting go away, just vanish, gone, when the buff ran out. >:

[opalexian]

This. You can't do that in PvE.

Let's not mention that the arena system does in fact support this kind of progression now, let's see.

Three tiers of arena gear:

Blue PvP set, no arena requirements: If you suck at arena, here you go! Blue gear.

Frist tier purple set, rating requirements ranging from ~1600 - ~1800 - Mid-tier purples, if you're good enough to get up here with your crafted blues or your first tier blues, then here you go! You may get cockblocked by a few geared peeps up near 1800, but you're going to get this first tier of purples so you can punch up there.

Second tier purple set ~2000 - ~2400 - At this point, you'll need all the gear you can get, each purple you break the rating for will matter, but you'll have to be good to get up there, though it's definitely still possible.

Yes, it helps to get in on the ground level, just as it does on raiding, but that doesn't mean it isn't impossible to climb the ranks even if you come in late.

Also, if you simply don't think PvP is at least decently balanced, then either review your viewpoint, or don't play. I'm thinking you're going to do the latter from your posts.


It annoys me when people say 'oh, you can suck and be 1600-1800' Well I suck, I can't find good partners/teams, and I can't break 1550. I think I saw 1600 once. Apparently I don't deserve good gear no matter how many BGs I do. Fuck arenas, it has pretty much trashed all other forms of PVP.

[Kaliera]

At least its not from other-servers, so if Horde are AFKing in Wintergrasp you can give them hell about it for hte rest of thier gaming life if you REALLY want to do that.


That is a huge plus, but the type of person to AFK in Wintergrasp tends to be the type of person who will brag about it in general chat the entire time they're doing it. Giving them hell will just be feeding their ego, sadly. I imagine Blizzard will put something in to combat it sooner or later, but I'm not entirely sure how it'd work.

[Swerto]

Auto AFK flag, you don't move for so so seconds or do any actions you don't "help" the other team with a buff.

You also get no honor.

[Ansha]

It annoys me when people say 'oh, you can suck and be 1600-1800' Well I suck, I can't find good partners/teams, and I can't break 1550. I think I saw 1600 once. Apparently I don't deserve good gear no matter how many BGs I do. Fuck arenas, it has pretty much trashed all other forms of PVP.

QFT.

This message is too short.

[nandien]

Anyone encounter any crafty NE Druids since Shadowmeld was messed with?

The new shadowmeld makes me happy... I shadowmelded, prowled and repounced a rogue who was trying to kill me... between ticks of deadly poison.

It was useful for running away before flying mounts too... get 15-20 yards away, shadowmeld, restealth ftw!


Edit: It's nice when someone tries to steal your node or something while you're fighting a mob as well...

[Yatokth]

The new shadowmeld makes me happy... I shadowmelded, prowled and repounced a rogue who was trying to kill me... between ticks of deadly poison.

It was useful for running away before flying mounts too... get 15-20 yards away, shadowmeld, restealth ftw!


Edit: It's nice when someone tries to steal your node or something while you're fighting a mob as well...

Shadowmeld > Flight Form.

Druids just reached a WHOLE NEW LEVEL of pussy.

[nandien]

Shadowmeld > Flight Form.

Druids just reached a WHOLE NEW LEVEL of pussy.

I did that once in Outlands... looking forward to more of the same in another 100k xp...

[Ansha]

Yeah, giving a whole race Vanish isn't OP at all.

[Ryoku]

Ah! That pleases me to hear that theres reason to have shadowmeld on my actionbar without being right next to the food/drink buttons.

However, it's not REALLY giving the entire RACE a vanish from what it seems. More like giving two CLASSES in the entire race a vanish. Really, the stealth level of shadowmeld is not very high at all (unless you're a druid/rogue, apparently. Wow), and due to the remaining inability to move while shadowmelded, I'm pretty sure a four year old could be able to find any shadowmelded Night Elf Priest/Warrior/Hunter without much trouble.

It seems a wee fishy that they still let us keep ultra-stealth, though. You'd think they'd cut that out since they made shadowmeld actually useful... Though I'd have a fit if they removed it.

[Kaliera]

Ah! That pleases me to hear that theres reason to have shadowmeld on my actionbar without being right next to the food/drink buttons.

However, it's not REALLY giving the entire RACE a vanish from what it seems. More like giving two CLASSES in the entire race a vanish. Really, the stealth level of shadowmeld is not very high at all (unless you're a druid/rogue, apparently. Wow), and due to the remaining inability to move while shadowmelded, I'm pretty sure a four year old could be able to find any shadowmelded Night Elf Priest/Warrior/Hunter without much trouble.

It seems a wee fishy that they still let us keep ultra-stealth, though. You'd think they'd cut that out since they made shadowmeld actually useful... Though I'd have a fit if they removed it.

I personally believe that shadowmeld in it's current state is pretty damn overpowered in the right hands. Even avoiding the disgustingly huge advantage is gives to the two stealth-capable races, the ability can be used to render entire casts useless. With proper timing and the ability to read one's opponent, shadowmeld can even render things like Death Coil useless, as bolt spells do not land on vanished targets.

The issue really isn't with the shadowmeld stealth effect, but rather the implications of being able to get out of combat at will and/or force a target drop. There lies the true value of the skill. You're right in stating that anyone having issues finding a shadowmelded hunter/priest/warrior must be pretty damn inept, but a skilled Night Elf has already done the damage - being invisible at the time is just icing on the cake.

[Catilyn]

Heh, funny. I remember back in the day where lots of Alliance Druids QQ'ed about Taurens getting Warstomp while Nightelves were stuck with something useless.

Interesting how things turned out, no; Mr. Moonkin?

[Shalis]

Yeah, giving a whole race Vanish isn't OP at all.

Whoa, whoa whoa.

You're implying that Vanish works as well as Shadowmeld.

To stay on topic. . .how are healing classes dealing with 80? I haven't gotten my healer to 80 eight, so this is purely anecdotal evidence, but it seems that DPS classes are just so, so much more effective. Just the lack of proper resilience, is it?

[Kaliera]

Heh, funny. I remember back in the day where lots of Alliance Druids QQ'ed about Taurens getting Warstomp while Nightelves were stuck with something useless.

Interesting how things turned out, no; Mr. Moonkin?

<- DK now. I couldn't care less about which druid race has the better racial.

Even back before the buff, the general consensus among arena druids was that Night Elves had the more beneficial racial. The ability to drink immediately upon dropping combat and having said drink unable to be interrupted via ranged attacks made NE druids damn near impossible to keep from snagging a full blue bar at whim. What did Tauren have? A resistible melee-range stun with a cast time. Woo?

To answer your question, yes, I do think it's interesting that despite most druids with a clue preferring Night Elf, their racials got buffed through the roof while Tauren racials got nerfed into the dirt. I sure do love having a racial slot that gives me 300-ish HP at 80 while Night Elves get 2% flat chance to be missed. Their 3% chance to resist nature compared to Tauren 2% is pretty delicious irony as well.

Lots of people used to "QQ", as you so eloquently put it, about hunters as well - despite the fact that the entire class can be countered by hugging their melee zone. Lots of people who play this game are terrible.

[Okhu]

Lots of people who play this game are terrible.

Move along. Nothing to see here...cept some quoted for truth. :>

[Ryoku]

Heh, funny. I remember back in the day where lots of Alliance Druids QQ'ed about Taurens getting Warstomp while Nightelves were stuck with something useless.

You mean all the way back to a few months ago? But really, it wasn't all useless! When I went to becoming a boomkin I found myself drink>shadowmelding all the time in pvp and such.

[Ryoku]

Responding to Keliara's points:

You actually make a very valid point, and upon looking again at the racials page on the website, I'm almost disgusted upon seeing that my race gets a 2-3&#37; nature resist, 2% chance to be missed by range/melee, shadowmeld that can work as a feign and vanish for stealth classes, 1 stealth level (<==MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE), and a faster corpse-run to boot.

I honestly didn't mind it the old way, it didn't really phase me much that I got to eat while invisible, and Tauren got a .5sec cast time interrupt. It wasn't THAT big of a difference but now it is so balanced in our favor... And that's all I want is more Night Elf Druids on this server...

Also, as starting as a tauren, I feel (felt? What race is your DK?) your pain for the hp buff nerf. It is complete bullshit.

[Kaliera]

Also, as starting as a tauren, I feel (felt? What race is your DK?) your pain for the hp buff nerf. It is complete bullshit.

Yar, the DK is a tauren by the same name. Honestly, I saw the nerf coming. With HP pools as huge as they are now, Tauren would be seeing increases up to 2k. While that's a drop in the bucket compared to the 40k HP you'd need to obtain that, it's still several hundred gold worth of solid gems in comparison.

Personally, I believe the scaling would have been fine if it had been cut down from 5% to 2.5, or something along those lines. Having such a pathetically small HP buffer might as well not even be a racial in it's current state though.







...And I'm still crossing my fingers for Warstomp to ditch it's cast time to put it on par with other active racials, but I won't hold my breath for that. :s

[nandien]

Shadowmeld is pretty overpowered in its current state, especially for druids. Though it's worth pointing out that Tauren can eat/drink in stealth now... cat form ftw.

[Ryoku]

Personally, I believe the scaling would have been fine if it had been cut down from 5&#37; to 2.5, or something along those lines. Having such a pathetically small HP buffer might as well not even be a racial in it's current state though.


I completely agree, and have thought up simular ideas for reasonable fixes.

I mean, this throws tanking completely off. The 5% total health buff made Taurens arguably the best theoretical tanks on the Horde, and now I'd go so far to say that they now make the worst theoretical tanks of all the Horde. (Even trolls)

On another note, didn't Blizzard once say the reason taunts don't work in PvP is because they absolutely did NOT want to force players to drop target? Yet what does feign death, and now shadowmeld do?

[Yatokth]

I completely agree, and have thought up simular ideas for reasonable fixes.

I mean, this throws tanking completely off. The 5&#37; total health buff made Taurens arguably the best theoretical tanks on the Horde, and now I'd go so far to say that they now make the worst theoretical tanks of all the Horde. (Even trolls)

On another note, didn't Blizzard once say the reason taunts don't work in PvP is because they absolutely did NOT want to force players to drop target? Yet what does feign death, and now shadowmeld do?

I think the distinction is drop target and CHANGE target. What's the difference? Stupid people won't notice, and be like "OMG THAT MAGE JUST NUKED ME FOR 5K AND I DID NO DAMAGE" when he was targeting the warrior behind him.

It'd be a pain in the ass admittedly, and the cooldown would be too short.

[Ryoku]

I think the distinction is drop target and CHANGE target. What's the difference? Stupid people won't notice, and be like "OMG THAT MAGE JUST NUKED ME FOR 5K AND I DID NO DAMAGE" when he was targeting the warrior behind him.

It'd be a pain in the ass admittedly, and the cooldown would be too short.

Actually what I think they said was more along the lines of "we don't want to have any skills that f*ck with peoples targetting." I'm not really saying "make taunt pvp!" I'm more just whining because I'm starting to realize more and more how much I don't want Blizzard to encourage people to roll Night Elf... Theres enough already.

[Agnarr]

Whoa, whoa whoa.

You're implying that Vanish works as well as Shadowmeld.

I was about to object here, after going through 70 levels of roguedom and getting frustrated with how broken Vanish was, then I realized you didn't mean that Vanish actually worked well, and my ire was sated.

[Advurb]

Vanish doesn't bug too much for me. I get more frustrated when people dodge 5pt KS when I'm clearly standing right behind them. Especially if it follows a shadowstep.

[Kaliera]

Vanish doesn't bug too much for me. I get more frustrated when people dodge 5pt KS when I'm clearly standing right behind them. Especially if it follows a shadowstep.

That shit is infuriating. I can't count the number of times a rogue has dodged a disarm of mine while running in the opposite direction. Server latency for the fucking lose. >_<

[Yatokth]

That shit is infuriating. I can't count the number of times a rogue has dodged a disarm of mine while running in the opposite direction. Server latency for the fucking lose. >_<

OR WHEN I'M RUNNING RIGHT THE FUCK NEXT TO THAT HUNTER AND IM OUT OF MELEE RANGE.

RGRRRRRGGHAGWRAFDSFA

[Gorymoru]

What are everyone's thought on Warlock PvP in Wrath? I mean, I know there sould be plenty of 80s now grinding gear, but I'm just curious. As of now, does Wrath look like it will be the bane of our existance, everyone's head on a silver platter, or will Blizzard have finally achieved PvP nirvana ((in our area at least)) and actually have balanced us out?