Mana Burn in PvP

[Fhenrir]

Discuss!

[Taknar]

To be removed from the game IMO. It stopped being useful in vanilla WoW near the end-game, cast the spell about 3 times on PvE for TBC, and make all the mana users and their daddies cry in PvP.

[Yatokth]

To be removed from the game IMO. It stopped being useful in vanilla WoW near the end-game, cast the spell about 3 times on PvE for TBC, and make all the mana users and their daddies cry in PvP.

This would actually make alot of sense and go towards helping out PvP issues with some classes -

But it would severely nerf the Priest class in Arenas, that's one of its strongest suits, they'd need something new to compensate.

[Averilyna]

Much of what I wanted to say, I already said in my off-topicness in the Ret thread, however...

My biggest concern is that I really like Mana Burn, it's a cool ability. Changing it to a percentage of total mana (and possibly removing the mana-drain-reduction on resil) would help out the low-mana classes without hurting Priests' ability to combat healers/high-mana dps. As I said, the problem would be that, if they leave in the half-mana-burned-to-dmg part, you'll get ridiculous numbers against raid bosses. The elegant, simple solution is simply to remove the damage portion of the spell. Functionally speaking, it would probably work fine (maybe in combination with lowering the mana cost to compensate for the loss of damage).

However, like I said, I really like the spell as it stands, the thought of making your opponent's mana blow up in their face is cool. It's different from other mana drains because it does do damage. Removing the damage component feels like changing the spell entirely. The Mana isn't combusting anymore, just going away.

Other possibilities that come to mind might be limiting the amount of damage caused to not exceed *some static value*, similar to how Eye for an Eye damage cannot exceed a certain percentage of the pally's max health. Or even just make the damage caused static.

Side Note: I don't PvP as a Hunter or Lock, so I didn't really touch on them. Also, they don't have the same issue, as the only thing Viper Sting and Drain Mana do is remove mana (no damage).

[Fhenrir]

My personal opinion of mana burn in PvP in arenas is that it should be completely removed, along with Star's Tears and other forms of PvP water. Drinking and Mana Burns both in my eyes are an unejoyable mechanic, and without either you'd see considerably less 50 minute matches.

In all other venues I couldn't care less about mana burn. If it goes off enough to drain a healer in a BG, your team was doing something wrong anyway. And in the world, well... who cares.

[Yatokth]

My personal opinion of mana burn in PvP in arenas is that it should be completely removed, along with Star's Tears and other forms of PvP water. Drinking and Mana Burns both in my eyes are an unejoyable mechanic, and without either you'd see considerably less 50 minute matches.

In all other venues I couldn't care less about mana burn. If it goes off enough to drain a healer in a BG, your team was doing something wrong anyway. And in the world, well... who cares.

Agreed, screw burns and star's tears - drinking in arenas is fail.

[Alphaeus]

Pre 3.0, I was spec'd into mana burn.

I'd get into mana burn wars with the disc priests. It usually proved true that the priest who was out of mana first lost, and it usually wasn't me.

Also fun against healadins, and messed up ret-pallies too.

I kinda miss it, now it takes too long to cast. >:

[Rand_Shea]

PvP I used it, but even with improved talents it took too long to cast and didn't take enough to be effective. About the only good use from it was if a mana class was low, I could usually cast it once to keep them at 0 until other people managed to finally kill them.

In arenas... there was really only a couple of times I found it effective.

In PvE... I've used it on the blood knights on Quel'Danas to keep them from healing, because it's difficult to deal with if they manage to get one off.

Personally I think it would do better as a debuff... One that ups the cost of spells by an additional 100% and causes shadow damage equal to 25% of the spell's damage/healing that was cast. It would be dispellable, of course, and dispelling it wouldn't cause any problem.

Maybe then there would be more to priest activity in arenas than spamming it on another priest, healer or otherwise caster and hoping you're left alone long enough for it to be effective.

[Averilyna]

Warning: Rambling wall of text incoming.

Caveat: I'm biased. Always will be. This post is mostly my opinions.

Ok, here's the flip-side to the "mana burns/drains are no fun, so let's get rid of them" opinion:

Yes, it would simplify the game. It would also basically destroy survival/drain teams (or at least greatly hinder them). Some people really like this idea. I would venture to say that the majority of players dislike the mana drain style of play, and would not mind it being removed. I admit, it can be frustrating to go up against a drain/survival type team. They don't go for a quick, efficient kill. They really don't go for the kill at all. It's a primarily defensive style of play. This is part of the reason Resto Druids were (are?) frustrating. They could run away, drink, and keep the fight going for a very very long time. Offensive teams felt like they just couldn't make any headway.

However, there are people (like me) who enjoy defensive play. I like wearing my opponents down. I like watching people break against a (hopefully) impenetrable wall until they simply run out of resources. I like the challenge inherent in trying to outlast an opponent rather than just nuking them in the face. This is why I play a Disc Priest, and not a Mage/Warrior/Shadow Priest/*insert dps class here*. Defensive strategies require a different kind of skill to play and to combat. I like the mana drain mechanic. (To be fair, I am usually on the giving end rather than the recieving end.) In the (admittedly limited) experiences I have had in arena, my favorite games have been ones that went fairly long. Games where ability to survive and be careful with your mana, not burst damage, decided the game.

To my thinking, the more ways to win a game there are, the more interesting the game is. I get very wary of the removal of any alternate way to win a game. Mana Drain teams are admittedly annoying, but the game would unquestionably be less varied without them. To me, that's very bad. Should MS effects be removed because they can be frustrating? Should CC be removed because it can be frustrating? Should Counterspell and Silence mechanics be removed because they're frustrating? That's the part I don't get. Mana Drains are frustrating, granted. They're supposed to be. Strong defense is inherently frustrating to an offensive strategy. You can even say that it is more frustrating than other mechanics. Fair enough, but it still shouldn't matter. The more viable styles of play there are, the more different kinds of comps are possible. The more viable styles of play there are, the more interesting the game becomes.

To wrap up, I've mostly stated my feelings about the issue. Mana Burn is my second favorite spell for both the mechanics and the flavor. (Mind Control is my favorite, for those curious.) I am going to get defensive when you talk about taking it away. That said, I do understand that the opinions expressed by other posters are *gasp* just opinions! No hard feelings or offense to you guys is intended. ;-P

[Rand_Shea]

I don't advocate getting rid of it, I just advocate changing it, because as a cast spell... it's extremely hard to use even with improved talents.

Maybe if shields provided a substantial resist to things like stuns and interrupts, it wouldn't be such an issue. But, they only protect against being damaged... which makes no sense. I'd be happier if my shield had a 40-50% chance to let me resist a warrior's charge or a rogue's sap, in exchange for using up 40-50% of the HP that it would be absorbing from physical or magical damage.

If it was a debuff, it could still be used with drain/survive teams, because it would force the other team's caster/healer either suffer huge losses when casting spells, or have to spend time dispelling it when they could have used it to throw a spell or heal a teammate.

Taking it out completely, though? You may as well remove the warlock, hunter, and shadowpriest talents that drain mana. Then, you may as well get rid of the drain life talents, too... Then get rid of bleeds and movement impairing effects, then stuns, poisons, And, to make things completely fair, get rid of all talents that restore mana, health, remove poisons or diseases, and give buffs.

Every class has something that gives them an edge. If you take one out, you may as well take them all out, and people can delete all their non-melee characters to roll nothing but rogues and warriors, who can do anything other than hit things and either have the HP to withstand hits or the dodge to avoid them.

[Thrysta]

((
During a fight, as a discipline priest I am patiently working to
bring about that one moment...

...that moment of clarity when you suddenly realize despite
all the damage you've done, all the dps you've put out...

...that you're not going to drop me.

Worse, you realize your mana is gone, your cooldowns are blown
and you've got nothing left up your sleeve.

Then the Shadow Word: Death hits and I feed on your corpse.

Mana Burn helps me to accomplish this.
))

[Yatokth]

((
During a fight, as a discipline priest I am patiently working to
bring about that one moment...

...that moment of clarity when you suddenly realize despite
all the damage you've done, all the dps you've put out...

...that you're not going to drop me.

Worse, you realize your mana is gone, your cooldowns are blown
and you've got nothing left up your sleeve.

Then the Shadow Word: Death hits and I feed on your corpse.

Mana Burn helps me to accomplish this.
))

lolmana

Rage ftw.

[Chikt]

My name is Diomades Riverhorn and I'm a Manaburnaphobe.

[Taknar]

The thing I've always hated about Mana Burn (and to a lesser extent Mana Drain) is that it takes up too much time. Viper sting is shoot and forget, and cheap enough to reapply when it pops off for whatever reason. This is all while getting auto-shots and arcane shots and everything else in. THAT is a large problem. Sadly, the other mana drain effects kinda just get clumped in with it despite being an actual offensive/defensive choice. My opinion on the fact that 350 mana removed is useless for anything with a 5k mana pool just kinda colours the facts even worse.

Also, why is there no mechanic to make rage, energy, or runic power accumulate slower? 3 warrior, 3 rogue, 1 druid, and 3 death knight specs makes 10 out of 30 specs immune to resource control in PvP.

[Okhu]

Because Mana bars are big enough.

[Yatokth]

Also, why is there no mechanic to make rage, energy, or runic power accumulate slower? 3 warrior, 3 rogue, 1 druid, and 3 death knight specs makes 10 out of 30 specs immune to resource control in PvP.

Because those mechanics (excluding energy) start out with none, they have to build them up ("waaaaah they hit once and then they can use their abilities, that's not buildup!!!" But they have to manage it, and use it correctly on their abilities, or you fail.)

As for energy, it's used up -really- fast (also regenerates pretty quickly, but a rogue who does not use his energy right will suck and just blow off all his shit.) If there was a way to fuck with energy, the rogue class would become broken because used properly, you could render them entirely and utterly USELESS - it's an extremely delicate mechanic. If you play a rogue, you NEED to manage your energy precisely or you SUCK. If they fuck with the mechanic, it would just all go to hell. It's too precise, it works fine now, don't mess with it.

I can't say anything about Runic Power (not played a DK) but I know rage is in no way shape or form IMMUNE to resource control. There's a really easy way to control it. CC THEM. Don't hit them, and kite them. Or hell, throw up your little shield which for some reason doesn't make my character as fucking angry when he hits it as it does me. Rage is actually very easy to control. You can rage starve a warrior pretty easily. Not as easy now, because all arms warriors have (or should have) endless rage, but it's still very possible and viable.

Thinking about it, Runic Power is the same, only it's harder to stunt since DK's have runes as well.

[Fhenrir]

Ok, here's the flip-side to the "mana burns/drains are no fun, so let's get rid of them" opinion:

I'd like to respond to this and say that at least from my perspective, it isn't exclusive to mana burns and it doesn't have to do exclusively with them being no fun.

I'm strongly against any gameplay mechanic that makes arena fights drag onnnn and onnnn. I like a longer fight every here and there, but honestly every single match I play being 15 minutes long isn't an appealing idea in the least. When fights drag on for so long, it tends to end up being decided by who gets the most lucky procs (hunter teams are prime culprits of this) at the right times. For example, I cannot count the number of times I won a match thanks to a mace stun after like 10 minutes of fighting. I also cannot count the number of fights I lost due to an Imp Wing Clip, or a Mace Stun on my healer, or a Blackout proc, etc...

Dragging fights out tend to make them less skill-oriented and more proc-based, with some rare exceptions.

[Kaliera]

I'd like to respond to this and say that at least from my perspective, it isn't exclusive to mana burns and it doesn't have to do exclusively with them being no fun.

I'm strongly against any gameplay mechanic that makes arena fights drag onnnn and onnnn. I like a longer fight every here and there, but honestly every single match I play being 15 minutes long isn't an appealing idea in the least. When fights drag on for so long, it tends to end up being decided by who gets the most lucky procs (hunter teams are prime culprits of this) at the right times. For example, I cannot count the number of times I won a match thanks to a mace stun after like 10 minutes of fighting. I also cannot count the number of fights I lost due to an Imp Wing Clip, or a Mace Stun on my healer, or a Blackout proc, etc...

Dragging fights out tend to make them less skill-oriented and more proc-based, with some rare exceptions.

And this, ladies and gents, is my opinion on the matter, even if it's stated by a bad cow.

What some people don't remember is that a far more irritating concept was introduced due to the fact that mana drains were too effective with no counter: drinking. Raise your hand if you find running away behind a pillar or to another corner to snag a refreshing swig to be enjoyable PvP. Damn near every healer/X match pre 3.0 consisted of exactly that. Healers would keep their mana bars nice and full until the match was decided based on which team got the most lucky procs. No longer was healing about efficiency, it was about spamming heals and drinking that blue bar back up.

I'd have loved to see both burn mechanics and drinks eliminated entirely to put some thought behind PvP healing again. If 80 ends up exactly like 70 as far as the arena goes, I'll definitely be pressing for that change in the suggestion forum, as little as it'd do. :/

[Taknar]

I'd have loved to see both burn mechanics and drinks eliminated entirely to put some thought behind PvP healing again. If 80 ends up exactly like 70 as far as the arena goes, I'll definitely be pressing for that change in the suggestion forum, as little as it'd do. :/

Healer role forum I think it the best bet.

[Kaliera]

Healer role forum I think it the best bet.

Perhaps, but the issue affects pretty much every class with a mana bar. Healers just tend to be the most vocal about it.

[Taknar]

On topic, I agree that it may not be a healer only discussion, and that perhaps damage dealing would be a better one. It seems to have turned into a bit of a "catch-all" for issues that people want devs to maybe see, since each class has a damage dealing spec.


I still maintain that there could be mechanics for hindering other resources in a small way that would allow unique abilities to shine. Such as increasing all rage costs by 5, and energy and RP by 10. There is now instantly more strain on your resources, and (balance permitting) it would be an equivalant move to mana drain/burn.

I'm really curious about people's opinions regarding what an ideal AFTER resil amount drained should be. Where is the line between underwhelming and overpowered?

[Yatokth]

I still maintain that there could be mechanics for hindering other resources in a small way that would allow unique abilities to shine. Such as increasing all rage costs by 5, and energy and RP by 10. There is now instantly more strain on your resources, and (balance permitting) it would be an equivalant move to mana drain/burn.

As I stated, there are ALREADY abilities to starve runic power and rage (don't get hit, and for rage, don't hit them) and as for energy, the amount increased would fall between either too much, thus absolutely crippling the class, or too little, having no effect and being a useless cast. There isn't a modicum where it would just make it 'more difficult' - the mechanic is too precise, as I mentioned.

[Kaliera]

It's rather sad that the official PvP forum has become such a cesspool, as that's the first place I'd lean towards posting such a suggestion in.

If that forum gets any blue attention at all, I'd guess that it gets very little. I certainly wouldn't expend many resources digging through the heap of crap posts in search of diamonds either, were I in Blizzard's shoes.

[Taknar]

When warriors couldn't cut through my shield in one hit and still deal damage to give me a healing debuff, I might have bought the line about already having ways to rage starve a warrior. It's just my experience that I don't see that being the case anymore. Granted, I for some retarded reason decided to play the healer with no PvP defences or CC, but even if I did have those things or other people to put those things on, they are gone within seconds.

Also, my second question was my lame attempt to get the thread focused on mana drains again. lol

[Fhenrir]

Still maintaining the opinion that mana drains should be removed from arenas, I'll be content if it's anywhere between 6-9ish percent (this is assuming it's unaffected by resilience).


<puts on mod hat> Also, let's let the grammar thing go before it gets really draining and I have to deal with it. Get it? Draining?

[Kaliera]

<puts on mod hat> Also, let's let the grammar thing go before it gets really draining and I have to deal with it. Get it? Draining?

I'm calling you "Faldane" for the rest of the evening. Get on Brawl, you silly bastard.


On topic, I think it'd be safe to say that we'd need to see how things pan out at 80. I do recall hearing many caster DPS classes complaining about having issues with expending mana too quickly in PvP without even taking mana burn into consideration, but I believe that Blizzard has taken actions to correct that issue. Hopefully they did their job correctly!

[Yatokth]

When warriors couldn't cut through my shield in one hit and still deal damage to give me a healing debuff, I might have bought the line about already having ways to rage starve a warrior. It's just my experience that I don't see that being the case anymore. Granted, I for some retarded reason decided to play the healer with no PvP defences or CC, but even if I did have those things or other people to put those things on, they are gone within seconds.

Also, my second question was my lame attempt to get the thread focused on mana drains again. lol

You're holy.

Spec Disc, try again. It's definitely more than one hit (especially if you have resilience) to punch through that shield, and still, absorption shields aside, you can just ignore him (which isn't as effective as it used to be, but still there) and also have your partner/friend CC him/snare him.

What Fhen said about mana drains. They don't NEED to be removed, but if they aren't, I'd rather see them nerfed and drinking taken out, because that's just straight up stupid that pvp is about how full the other guy's blue bar is and not about healing done, damage done, or CC used. Just the blue bar. Screw that.

[Averilyna]

I'm really curious about people's opinions regarding what an ideal AFTER resil amount drained should be. Where is the line between underwhelming and overpowered?

I'm not sure, exactly. I do know that using mana burn against a target with no resil puts them oom way too fast. I also know that using Mana Burn against a target with very high or capped resil is not really underwhelming. My thought is that, as long as they don't make it worse than it is now vs capped (high mana) targets, it shouldn't be underpowered.

Also, as Disc, it usually takes more than one swing for a Warrior to cut through my bubble. (It's roughly 2500 absorption I believe) Secondly, a Holy Spec is trying to cast a 3 second spell, while mine is only 2 sec. Any 3 sec cast is practically unusable in PvP if you're taking hits.

Thirdly (looking even further back), you have managed to point out the primary difference between Mana Burn and Viper Sting. I can't Burn and heal simultaneously (not as well, anyway). A hunter just throws Viper Sting in instead of Scorpid/Serpent Sting and continues dpsing/kiting/whatever. I actually like the way Burn works much better. It forces a balancing act. It forces the player to understand when they can afford to cast a burn spell and when they can't. (There are times when it's ok to throw a mana burn while getting dps'd.) I'm not sure I'm happy with the way Viper Sting works (especially in combination with Aimed Shot), but I honestly don't know how else to implement it for a hunter.


I'm strongly against any gameplay mechanic that makes arena fights drag onnnn and onnnn. I like a longer fight every here and there, but honestly every single match I play being 15 minutes long isn't an appealing idea in the least. When fights drag on for so long, it tends to end up being decided by who gets the most lucky procs (hunter teams are prime culprits of this) at the right times. For example, I cannot count the number of times I won a match thanks to a mace stun after like 10 minutes of fighting. I also cannot count the number of fights I lost due to an Imp Wing Clip, or a Mace Stun on my healer, or a Blackout proc, etc...

Dragging fights out tend to make them less skill-oriented and more proc-based, with some rare exceptions.

Fair enough. I personally don't mind extremely long matches, despite the increased chance of RNG dramatically shifting the scale. I do, however, understand that most people really dislike long fights. However, keep in mind that not every team you fight will be a defensive burn type team. In fact, given the way things are going, it's entirely possible those kind of comps will be less used in comparison to more burst-damage/insta-gib or damage/control-oriented teams. This will largely be dependent on how the game balances out at 80, so there's no way to be sure yet.

On the issue of drinking: I'm honestly not sure where I stand on this. As a Priest, I benefit from it almost as much as I could lose from it, so It's hard to say how I feel about it. Again, I personally don't mind extremely long matches, though I understand why a lot of people hate them. Mana Burns exacerbate the problem by causing drinking to no longer provide any real advantage, since the fight gets shortly reset to the "no mana for anyone" state. However, if drinking gets taken out (perhaps in combination with drain/burn getting toned down a bit?), you shouldn't run into the never-ending match problem as much. Also, it forces a survival/drain team to conserve their own resources while trying to destroy their opponent's so that they have something left to finish people off, not just destroy everyone's resources and rely on RNG to win.

Looking at the post Yat made while I was typing, the above paragraph is a long-winded way of saying mostly what he said. >.>

[Taknar]

Thirdly (looking even further back), you have managed to point out the primary difference between Mana Burn and Viper Sting. I can't Burn and heal simultaneously (not as well, anyway). A hunter just throws Viper Sting in instead of Scorpid/Serpent Sting and continues dpsing/kiting/whatever. I actually like the way Burn works much better. It forces a balancing act. It forces the player to understand when they can afford to cast a burn spell and when they can't. (There are times when it's ok to throw a mana burn while getting dps'd.) I'm not sure I'm happy with the way Viper Sting works (especially in combination with Aimed Shot), but I honestly don't know how else to implement it for a hunter.

I don't understand why this is a preferrable method. Especially with mana draining being a mechanic that is somewhat all or nothing. Burning 2k mana in 4 seconds isn't worth not having healed the damage that was caused during those 4 seconds. You can make the pitch that it's more for shadow priests, but then why is it even still in the discipline tree?

Honestly the only way I could see myself casting this spell in PvP at all is if I'm trying to sink a counterspell out of someone. Even then, if someone counters a healer when their hands are all BLACK I will most likely win regardless of the effect of the spell.

Perhaps a better question I should be asking is how much mana drained on a class means that you have noticably crippled them? When they are down to 2k? 3k? If a mage or shaman still has 4,000 mana I know they can still kill me. Unless of course the whole point is to rapid drain a healer and then die so that it is a 5 on 4 at which point paladins will gain a PvP tool out of Divine plea. (Druids never ever leaving PvP arenas and Shaman being there for bloodlust and soon to be hex)

[Yatokth]

I don't understand why this is a preferrable method. Especially with mana draining being a mechanic that is somewhat all or nothing. Burning 2k mana in 4 seconds isn't worth not having healed the damage that was caused during those 4 seconds. You can make the pitch that it's more for shadow priests, but then why is it even still in the discipline tree?

Wrong. Burning that mana puts them out of the fight that much faster, and if you can afford to do so and keep your partner up, DO IT.


Honestly the only way I could see myself casting this spell in PvP at all is if I'm trying to sink a counterspell out of someone. Even then, if someone counters a healer when their hands are all BLACK I will most likely win regardless of the effect of the spell.

I pummel mana burns. (back when i played paladin/warr, and sometimes in shaman/warr) Because the mechanic is THAT POWERFUL. Use it while they're feared, use it during your bubble (which would be sick if you were disc - get some gear and go disc and see how sexy that thing is) use it after you LoS their damage. Priests using mana burn properly destroy other healers.


Perhaps a better question I should be asking is how much mana drained on a class means that you have noticably crippled them? When they are down to 2k? 3k? If a mage or shaman still has 4,000 mana I know they can still kill me. Unless of course the whole point is to rapid drain a healer and then die so that it is a 5 on 4 at which point paladins will gain a PvP tool out of Divine plea. (Druids never ever leaving PvP arenas and Shaman being there for bloodlust and soon to be hex)

When they're manaless, you have crippled them, and you keep getting closer and closer with each burn, also causing damage in order to keep their healer (if the person you're targeting is for some reason, not the healer) on their toes. It takes a LONG TIME which is why it sucks so much.

You don't "rapid drain" ANYTHING. The drain/burn mechanic by its nature is an outlasting strategy. "Rapid" should not be used at any time when describing burn/drain teams, because they are not rapid anything except rapidly annoying as FUCK.

As for Divine Plea, it's dispellable. Druids are still powerful, but not nearly as with all the new sexy damage floating around, the nerf to lifebloom, and the upcoming fuck-HoTs-class, Death Knights. And Hex sucks. Better than nothing, but it still sucks.

[Fhenrir]

Mind the tone remains that of a friendly discussion. As annoying as many of us may find mana burn (or as much as we may love it), keep a cool head. <nods>

[Taknar]

I have no intention of grabbing disc gear (although the way Holy likes crit, it really is the same gear) and checking it out, but I will have to keep a better eye on it.

If the entire reason that the spell has been useless to me in both PvP and PvE because of it being 3 seconds instead of 2, I'll freak. 3 seconds is enough time to get more than 30 yards away from me, making it useless after a fear.

Also doing some quick math, against a frost mage getting rid of 1400 mana stops about 5 frostbolts from going off. I can see that being useful in a fight where mana can't be regained, but in a short duration battle? Need 3.0.3 Arena videos...

[e]Fhen: Please openly berate me if it seems my tone is becoming too heated or emotional. I feel it's very important to make sure I am looking at things objectively.

[Yatokth]

Mind the tone remains that of a friendly discussion. As annoying as many of us may find mana burn (or as much as we may love it), keep a cool head. <nods>

Yeah, I know, I'm just a sarcastic dick about everything, not really angry. Nothing personal to anyone! :3


I have no intention of grabbing disc gear (although the way Holy likes crit, it really is the same gear) and checking it out, but I will have to keep a better eye on it.

If the entire reason that the spell has been useless to me in both PvP and PvE because of it being 3 seconds instead of 2, I'll freak. 3 seconds is enough time to get more than 30 yards away from me, making it useless after a fear.

Also doing some quick math, against a frost mage getting rid of 1400 mana stops about 5 frostbolts from going off. I can see that being useful in a fight where mana can't be regained, but in a short duration battle? Need 3.0.3 Arena videos...

[e]Fhen: Please openly berate me if it seems my tone is becoming too heated or emotional. I feel it's very important to make sure I am looking at things objectively.

The cast reduction IS really nice, and yes, the drain team isn't quite as dominant now that damage got buffed, especially at 70, but I imagine it will make a pretty decent comeback at 80 with the defensive stats scaling.

It's used more on healers than caster DPS, because you take out the healer, you take out the team.

[Taknar]

Since when have 3 people doing a DPS swap onto a healer not been able to take them down within 5 seconds? (excluding pally bubble) That's a serious question by the way.

[Fhenrir]

I'll agree that if you haven't tried Disc for mana burning, you probably won't have the best perspective on it's usefulness. I don't know precisely what the talent is, but I know there's something in Disc PvP builds that also cuts casting time of spells in half after some sort of proc. Thus, 1 second mana burns.

It's pretty gross when played carefully.

[Yatokth]

Since when have 3 people doing a DPS swap onto a healer not been able to take them down within 5 seconds? (excluding pally bubble) That's a serious question by the way.

Since... forever.

Because the healer either:

A. Doesn't stand there and take it (see: druid)

B. Has enough armor/other heals to stand there and take it (see: shamans)

C. Doesn't get in that situation (see: druid)

D. Dies (see: paladin)

I'm not sure how to explain it, you'd probably have a better perspective if you weren't holy, but before 3.0 (mostly before crazy OP rets) healers could survive triple DPS if their team was on the ball and they knew what to do.

[Taknar]

I've been doing all the math with a 2 second cast, but I don't know of any talent that procs haste in the Disc tree.

At best you have power infusion and borrowing time, bringing the total haste to (20&#37; x 25% = 50% haste).... well hot damn. That could shave a good deal of a fight if spam cast, but the borrowing time only affects one spell.

My mind is being turned about the spell, even if I think that the mechanic is a bit outdated.

[Taknar]

I'm not sure how to explain it, you'd probably have a better perspective if you weren't holy, but before 3.0 (mostly before crazy OP rets) healers could survive triple DPS if their team was on the ball and they knew what to do.

How did they cast a spell with three melee on them? This is the crucial part I'm missing here, and I've PvPed with Martyrdom and know it doesn't help as much as I thought it would.

Fhen, feel free to change the name of the thread to "Taknar can't PvP, let's teach him." I'm getting more PvP advice here than all the other requests I've put in this forum together =D

[Muatah]

I can see that being useful in a fight where mana can't be regained, but in a short duration battle?

When fighting a high Hit Point, high Resilience Discipline Priest there is only very rarely such a thing as a "short duration battle." With their Shields and Fears they will survive to get away unless you can time your interrupts properly/focus fire them down/get lucky with a crit string. It is their survivability that makes their Mana Draining/Burning so crippling to enemy casters.

Also not to be discounted is the effect it has on the enemy players morale. If you get an opponent off-balance/annoyed/thinking "What the hell??" you are a huge step towards beating them. PvP battles are often won or lost largely on the mental attitude of the participants.

As for whether it should be removed.....eh, I guess I think it should stay. I hatehatehate it on my Paladin, but on the other hand it's just another tactic that creates diverse situations on the battlefield, which makes the game more enjoyable.

[Muatah]

How did they cast a spell with three melee on them?

Priests I have a hard time killing Fear constantly.

[Yatokth]

How did they cast a spell with three melee on them? This is the crucial part I'm missing here, and I've PvPed with Martyrdom and know it doesn't help as much as I thought it would.

Fhen, feel free to change the name of the thread to "Taknar can't PvP, let's teach him." I'm getting more PvP advice here than all the other requests I've put in this forum together =D

They bubbled/pain suppresion'd and started healing themselves. You obviously don't mana burn while you're getting gibbed, it's something you do when you get your opponents away from you (which is fairly doable solo with scream, but much better in a team where your teammates can peel people with snares/roots/fear/other CC) and then when you're at full, you slowly plunk away at their mana and keep yours up.

[Skaadvik]

I'd like to see mana burn changed. It dominated me when I was Shockadin disgustingly. I'd consistently lose duels to Disc Priests in worse gear than me just because they'd do nothing but Mana Burn me. The best I could hope for was to "juke" their cast and jump behind them, but that doesn't do anything but make it take longer in a dueling situation. It helps when I can pull it off in BGs/Arenas where I ideally have teammates wailing on said Priest while I jump behind and LoS said Priest like a madman, but it still rails me.

[Thrysta]

((
A discussion about Disc Priest Mana Burn mechanics that does not include a Disc Priest.
How about we change that.

The key items that affect Mana Burn's 3 second cast are:

Improved Mana Burn: 2pt Tier 4 Talent, at 2/2 shave 1 sec off cast time.
Power Infusion: Increases casting speed by 20&#37;, reduces mana cost of spells.
Borrowed Time: +25% Spell Haste to next spell after casting PW:Shield
Aspiration: Reduces cooldown on a number of spells, including Power Infusion.

Now, these talents require a deep Discipline build, so they won't help a Holy Priest.
I will leave it to you folks to crunch the numbers.
I'm results-driven.

In addition, for the sake of the discussion, let's recap what PW:Shield is like for
a Disc Priest:

Silent Resolve talent: Decreases the likelihood of your spells being dispelled by 30%
Improved PW:Shield: Increases damaged absorbed by the shield by 10%
Reflective shield: 45% of damage absorbed by shield is reflected back at the source.
Rapture: A percentage of your max mana is regained by damage absorbed by the shield.
Borrowed Time: Increases the amount absorbed by PW:S by 40% of your spell power.

You get the idea.
))

[Swerto]

I never had a problem with mana burn, then again I am a warrior and never really got bothered by it.

I did see some people come up with impressive numbers because of it though...

I can see some nerfbat going to it, but complete removal? Naaaah.