[DISCUSSION] Death mechanic

[Necroxis]

I've always been astounded at how many different ways people deal with the fact that, no matter how many times you die in WoW, you can always "run" to your body as a spirit and revive.

My question is: How do you IC explain this phenomenon?

Ok, so lets say, for example, that last night, you led a brave attack on Orgrimmar (because I'm alliance :P), and you managed to "kill" Thrall. However, if you go back there today, he is sitting on his throne perfectly alive.

Is he dead? Did he "run back to his corpse and rez" ?

The same thing goes for Raids, I don't know how many times I've talked with someone who has "killed" Onyxia but then I (Having not killed her on my paladin - who was made post-BC) can go and see her alive?

Personally, I normally just avoid the subject of including myself in events such as the killing of important characters based on raids on towns/ect. Raids are a little different because here is how I see it:

The events and storylines of WoW classic were 2 years ago

The events and storylines of Burning Crusade were 1 year ago

The events and storylines of WotLK (When it comes out), will be current.

Blizzard has even stated (I can't find it now but I'm 100% positive I read it) that WoW took place 1 year before BC, and then BC will be 1 year behind WotLK.

However, there are many people who don't Rp that way. Hell, just a few weeks ago I was RPing with a random person who stated he was going into the Temple of Ahn'Qiraj to stop the Qiraji and kill C'Thun (Who doesn't die when you "beat" his "eye," you merely kill the eye). Like I previously stated, I follow the Blizzard timeline for lore, so C'thun has been defeated for a year already.

This kind of situation quickly stop the RPing, because as I tried to explain to the person, OOC after he didn't believe me IC that C'thun was beaten, he stormed off.

[Taknar]

I've kinda given up trying to rationalize PvE raiding in an RP sense. I just roll with it. Someone wants to say that Kael is still alive, despite the fact I've got his vial and am petting his mini pheonix? That's cool! Someone else wants to say that he just got back up again, that's cool too.

As far as I'm concerned, first down is RP. The rest is going through the motions in exchange for treasure.

[Keraph]

Oh lordy, this is a conversation I've seen on TNG about....eighteen thousand four hundred and forty three times. BUT, not since we've had a lot of newer people, so I'm curious to see what other peoples views are.

To address your first point: Thrall is a shaman. He'll just get his ass back up. I do consider that since we have ressurection spells in game, I think a faction leader PROBABLY has someone to take care of that. Or like, 15.

Raid deaths are pretty much based on game lore. Onyxia and Nefarion are considered dead by Blizzard, as far as lore is concerned. Yes, you can still go do them, but as far as lore and history goes, they're dead. Ragnaros is defeated, C'thun has been beaten back, etc. There's at least some possibility with some bosses to explain fighting them again. Rag and C'thun could try to come back, Scourge bosses like Ras and Baron can be re-raised by the Lich King. So there is SOME room there for creativity, but as you said, the events that were 'threatening the world' in vanilla WoW happened two years ago. They're not really threats anymore.

As for player deaths, it's a lot more subjective here. I personally think that the idea of dying and running back to where you died as a spirit is a bit tacky, but is of course a necessary game mechanic. As an undead main it's a tad easier for me. I just get back up once I've regained enough strength to do so. Keraph has never died (well, except for that one time, when he did. And became undead), because I think that the idea of constantly dying IC cheapens the effect of death, and makes it seem less of a big deal. I haven't put much thought into it for my other characters (and that by itself makes the whoooole concept easier)

There might be more to this post, I'm still sorta thinkin on it.

[Taknar]

As for player deaths, it's a lot more subjective here. I personally think that the idea of dying and running back to where you died as a spirit is a bit tacky, but is of course a necessary game mechanic. As an undead main it's a tad easier for me. I just get back up once I've regained enough strength to do so. Keraph has never died (well, except for that one time, when he did. And became undead), because I think that the idea of constantly dying IC cheapens the effect of death, and makes it seem less of a big deal. I haven't put much thought into it for my other characters (and that by itself makes the whoooole concept easier)

See, my stance on this used to be that running your spirit back to your body was the spiritual act of returning conciousness. You didn't die, you just got knocked out! (I conviently forgot about the skeleton that gets left behind.)

However, with Death Knights being able to resurect dead bodies into ghouls and in some cases just blow them up (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51328, it's fun!) my case is blown out of the already shallow water is was sitting in.

[Necroxis]

Oh lordy, this is a conversation I've seen on TNG about....eighteen thousand four hundred and forty three times. BUT, not since we've had a lot of newer people, so I'm curious to see what other peoples views are.

To address your first point: Thrall is a shaman. He'll just get his ass back up. I do consider that since we have ressurection spells in game, I think a faction leader PROBABLY has someone to take care of that. Or like, 15.

Raid deaths are pretty much based on game lore. Onyxia and Nefarion are considered dead by Blizzard, as far as lore is concerned. Yes, you can still go do them, but as far as lore and history goes, they're dead. Ragnaros is defeated, C'thun has been beaten back, etc. There's at least some possibility with some bosses to explain fighting them again. Rag and C'thun could try to come back, Scourge bosses like Ras and Baron can be re-raised by the Lich King. So there is SOME room there for creativity, but as you said, the events that were 'threatening the world' in vanilla WoW happened two years ago. They're not really threats anymore.

As for player deaths, it's a lot more subjective here. I personally think that the idea of dying and running back to where you died as a spirit is a bit tacky, but is of course a necessary game mechanic. As an undead main it's a tad easier for me. I just get back up once I've regained enough strength to do so. Keraph has never died (well, except for that one time, when he did. And became undead), because I think that the idea of constantly dying IC cheapens the effect of death, and makes it seem less of a big deal. I haven't put much thought into it for my other characters (and that by itself makes the whoooole concept easier)

There might be more to this post, I'm still sorta thinkin on it.

Heh...I figured it probably has been. However, as I looked through 1-2 pages in the different lore sections, I could not find one. And yes, I am...fairly new... to the forums ( I've been here a few months).

Ok, Thrall might have been a bad example, lets say, for instance, Magni or Tyrande were killed, yes I know that resurrection spells are part of the game, but are those not only game mechanics as well?

Frankly if I had to accept the fact that Tyrande was killed on a regular basis but then one of her advisors or w/e came and resurrected her, I would lose a lot of love that I have for her. I think that can be said for most people about some of their favorite lore characters.

I guess like you said, ignoring it somewhat seems the best path to take. Perhaps the Forsaken have relatively free-range on dying seeing as they are already undead, but what about everyone else?


As far as I'm concerned, first down is RP. The rest is going through the motions in exchange for treasure.

Understandable, but how do you react when you begin RPing with someone who thinks the opposite as you? Say you are talking with someone who just failed in an attempt to kill Kael'thas, while you have the phoenix pet?

This has happened to me a few times, and I change what I do each time, mainly because I'm not sure what to do.

Basically I'm trying to see what everyone else thinks so I can finally make a stand on which way I am going to RP in regards to this aspect of the game.

[Keraph]

See, my stance on this used to be that running your spirit back to your body was the spiritual act of returning conciousness. You didn't die, you just got knocked out! (I conviently forgot about the skeleton that gets left behind.)

However, with Death Knights being able to resurect dead bodies into ghouls and in some cases just blow them up (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51328, it's fun!) my case is blown out of the already shallow water is was sitting in.

I like your original concept of player death, it's one I've seen a lot of people use, and I find it to be the most amiable for RP purposes. Why do we keep getting lucky though, and just getting knocked out instead of killed? Why is it that not once has something I was fighting managed to finish the job and take my head off or something? Hell, I don't know. but getting up after you're dead (mechanically speaking), you're still pretty damn battered and beaten until you're healed up.

The DK think is an interesting twist to this theory yes, but at the same time not entirely impossible to work around. I'll thin of somethin XD

[Yatokth]

Oh lordy, this is a conversation I've seen on TNG about....eighteen thousand four hundred and forty three times. BUT, not since we've had a lot of newer people, so I'm curious to see what other peoples views are.

To address your first point: Thrall is a shaman. He'll just get his ass back up. I do consider that since we have ressurection spells in game, I think a faction leader PROBABLY has someone to take care of that. Or like, 15.

Raid deaths are pretty much based on game lore. Onyxia and Nefarion are considered dead by Blizzard, as far as lore is concerned. Yes, you can still go do them, but as far as lore and history goes, they're dead. Ragnaros is defeated, C'thun has been beaten back, etc. There's at least some possibility with some bosses to explain fighting them again. Rag and C'thun could try to come back, Scourge bosses like Ras and Baron can be re-raised by the Lich King. So there is SOME room there for creativity, but as you said, the events that were 'threatening the world' in vanilla WoW happened two years ago. They're not really threats anymore.

As for player deaths, it's a lot more subjective here. I personally think that the idea of dying and running back to where you died as a spirit is a bit tacky, but is of course a necessary game mechanic. As an undead main it's a tad easier for me. I just get back up once I've regained enough strength to do so. Keraph has never died (well, except for that one time, when he did. And became undead), because I think that the idea of constantly dying IC cheapens the effect of death, and makes it seem less of a big deal. I haven't put much thought into it for my other characters (and that by itself makes the whoooole concept easier)

There might be more to this post, I'm still sorta thinkin on it.

These summate most of my thoughts on the subject.

I usually RP that Yat was "beaten back" or "severely injured" IF I have to. Often, I just RP that he was smart and got out of there before it REALLY got nasty - still a defeat.

I did flirt with the idea of the whole "spirit world" deal a bit on my shaman... But that's cause he's a shaman. ;)

The raids are another matter. As Taknar said, I think for BC raids, we can say "We went to do battle in Tempest Keep" or something. But once LK is out, I think BC and Classic WoW bosses will be considered "defeated" - but as Keraph noted, you can be creative for a reason to go back.

It's best, in my opinion, not to worry too much or take too seriously the death mechanic.

[Moknim]

I saw someone do a pretty interesting RP of the spirit healer. She was not good/evil, she just was and her job was to bring people back to life. I will try to dig it up.

Basic take was, you do die, but (just as it happens in game) your spirit pops up next to the spirit healer. Her job in the realm of spirits is to keep resurrecting both sides to provide a good/evil balance in the world. It was actually a really interesting/fun read. If I can't find it, I may have to write one myself.

Of course that makes death meaningless in WoW, but it kinda is anyway.

[Keraph]

Ok, Thrall might have been a bad example, lets say, for instance, Magni or Tyrande were killed, yes I know that resurrection spells are part of the game, but are those not only game mechanics as well?

-----

Understandable, but how do you react when you begin RPing with someone who thinks the opposite as you? Say you are talking with someone who just failed in an attempt to kill Kael'thas, while you have the phoenix pet?

This has happened to me a few times, and I change what I do each time, mainly because I'm not sure what to do.

First point, while I consider spirit ressing and all that to be mechanics only (from my perspective), I think that spells that restore the spirit to the body, bring someone back from the edge of death, etc. are still viable RP things. I just don't like the idea that anyone can get back up at any time with no help from anyone else. Even so, it's hard if you're killing off a character if you're quitting the game or something, cause someone will always be like "...so, why don't we just rez them?" Thats another reason I don't like death to be considered a minor thing. It detracts from the seriousness of it.

Second point, um....that's a toughy, actually. I tend to just be very vague in that sort of RP, not lean one way or the other unless it's solidified in the lore. Kael'thas may or may not be dead, but the 'threat' of the fallen prince still remains, as there are still loyalists to his cause, so I tend not to go into specifics and use sweeping answers like that.

Edit for Mokim's response: OH MY GOD I know what you're talking about, and it's like, one of the funniest reads ever. Didn't someone post a story like that here? Feels like it was a while ago, either way.

But still, I just don't like the idea of a bunch of (or a single one, that just appears wherever she's needed) spirit healers just randomly bringing people back to life left and right. Why does anyone bother with anything if they know that if they get killed or if they kill anyone, everyone's gonna be just fine in a few minutes?

[Necroxis]

Why does anyone bother with anything if they know that if they get killed or if they kill anyone, everyone's gonna be just fine in a few minutes?

Exactly, exactly!

This is my biggest....confusion I guess you could say...on the subject.

"Hell, Kil'Jaeden might take over the world if we don't stop him, but wait, if we die we can come back to life and fight him until he is beaten. But lets hope that he can do the same!"

[Taknar]

The way I handle the disconnect is simple: Taknar is three times older than any Troll has any right to be. He's growing senile. He will either call you a liar, or give in and say he was remembering something faulty, depending on how much he trusts your judgement.

With the exception of Lady Vashj. Taknar is convinced that the Vashj lineage is long and strong, and she has many identical sisters ready to take her place.

[Agnarr]

I feel a happy medium needs to be met, from both parties.
You didn't get that Phoenix off of Kael. You acquired it in Magister's Terrace. Because if you got it off of Kael, then he'd be dead. Which he obviously isn't, as someone else has yet to kill him. It lessens your accomplishments in a public RP way. You still know you killed him. The other person still knows he killed him. NPCs don't "die" until Blizzard releases an expansion or content patch and writes it into the lore of it. After they're officially dead, fine, brag away how you killed him along with 12,852 other people. Grats.

WoW is too static to have personal accomplishments. Hell, Thrall called me the Champion of the Horde back when I got the Winterfall furbies to like me. Where's my title "Champion of the Horde"?

Regarding player death...I feel the interpretation is totally up to how you want to RP it in the specific situation. I've used the spirit rez game mechanics in RP (once), but I've died many many many times. I figure when you run back to your corpse, you're essentially "waking up", defeated and weak.

LOTRO does it a sort of neat way (and sort of cheesy, too), in that instead of health/life you have morale. When your morale drops to 0, you must retreat (ie, you die and wind up at the nearest safe/spawn point).

When it comes to killing people? Sure, you killed Blades of Lordaeron Random Person #352. You didn't kill Kurohane (unless the RP means for it to happen, and you're not RPing at someone, you're RPing with someone).

[Resinous]

Blizzard kinda did the same thing once. I was pretty sure Illidan looked dead when Arthas cut him down at the end of the Frozen Throne expansion. As far as player death goes, Ive seen a few people I killed IC get into it and do a name change. I guess it depends on what you want to do and if you feel like spending ten bucks to make things more RP.

[Grayslin]

Perhaps some insights into how it works amongst the RP community in some other games might give us some ideas on ways to handle it without cheapening death...


LOTRO does it a sort of neat way (and sort of cheesy, too), in that instead of health/life you have morale. When your morale drops to 0, you must retreat (ie, you die and wind up at the nearest safe/spawn point).
I was going to mention this one, but you beat me to it.

Another example is the way EVE does it. The capsule pilots benefit from the ability to have their consciousness transmitted at the time of death to the medical facility that stores their clones and they wake up in a fresh new body. This keeps from cheapening death too much in that the service is considered to be ludicrously expensive and basically financially off-limits to the general population. Only the ultra-rich capsule pilots (all the PC's) can afford it, and if you want the character to die permanantly, all you have to do is kill him off and then RP that the transmission was interrupted.

[Abric]

It's a giant comic book. Nobody ever dies - they just get defeated to come back another day. Kael'thas is a perfect example of it. Thought you killed him? Looted his corpse? NOPE! You just kicked the shit out of him, stole his Jordan's, and he crawled out of the trash can you threw him in to put a giant fel crystal in his chest.

When somebody truly *does* die, that is important stuff. While this is hard to grasp when you've cut the head off a dragon or stole some dudes tentacle or all in all see seven different copies of a Legendary item - it's fantasy and that's the way it is. Anybody remember Last Action Hero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Action_Hero)? Our characters are in that world, and we're just the kid who got sucked into it all.

[Lisbet]

My characters are raiders, its what they do, because its what -I- do. Not only are they heroes, but they're epic heroes who's job it is specificly save the world from the big bads.

Thats how Mae is, thats how Lisbet is.. and should I ever raid with Ali, that's how she'll be too.

Now, in game mechanics drop you off at the spirit healer with 1 health. It can be explained two ways.

1.Its not yet your time to go - you died and have enough strength of will not to cross over, and there is a written date and time when you will actually die and today isn't that day

2. You got the living shit kicked out of you and you're hallucinating and once you "spirit walk" back to your body your consciousness will return and you'll feel like shit.

I go with option one ;p

[Visca]

I saw someone do a pretty interesting RP of the spirit healer. She was not good/evil, she just was and her job was to bring people back to life. I will try to dig it up.

Basic take was, you do die, but (just as it happens in game) your spirit pops up next to the spirit healer. Her job in the realm of spirits is to keep resurrecting both sides to provide a good/evil balance in the world. It was actually a really interesting/fun read. If I can't find it, I may have to write one myself.


That was Xenorin! I loved it. Here it is for people to enjoy. Thank you Brox!

http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=8800

[Visca]

Now, that I found that... Time to give you my thoughts?


I do go with if I'm killing alliance players, I'm killing Random <insert player's race>...

Raiders? Well, I don't have to worry about that... I don't raid, sadly. As such, I rp that the faction and raiders that I don't know. An army to take down certain people perhaps? The Final Crusade is my first time exploring this icly. Draco will not go on the "Strike force", he will be in the army against their forces to help the strike force. Still herioc, but not glory hog, right?

As for Faction leaders? Either their healed, or it doesn't actually happen in my opinion.

If I die, then it's a defeat somehow... Knockout, retreat, hiding out of combat... you know, the usual...

[Naheal]

Ok. How I do this is a little dependant on the situation.

For the most part, Naheal's attitude and disposition makes him a pally, and, given his background as both a warlock and a blood knight, will rarely strike to kill. Alliance that he "kills"? They should be able to get back up eventually.

For him, G'eras (his patron Naaru) will not let him die. He usually just comes back with a mental message of "You still have a duty to perform." So, he gets up and continues on with what he was doing.