Ret Paladins

[Fhenrir]

Since it's bound to come up sooner or later.

Ret paladins are ridiculously unbalanced in PvP at the moment. Discuss.


Edit for clarity; constructive/informative posts only. This isn't a QQ about ret thread. QQ-only posts will be deleted.

[Moknim]

Are arenas still going to be running?

If so, wtb: 2 retadins for 3s.

[Chikt]

My point of view: As much as Ret Paladins are OP at the moment I suspect it's because, by and large, they got a lot more of their Wrath abilities at 70 than any other class. I think that Blizzard has balanced the game based on Level 80 instead.

Needless to say, however, being 3-shot by a Ret Paladin in RESTO SPEC of all things is frustrating to no end, and make deciding upon a spec hard - because I don't know if it's Resto sucking for PvP now (the healing it does seems so minimal compared to how it used to be) or if it's because the game is just unbalanced as it is right now.

Ret Paladins are more OP than I've ever seen any other class be OP, and it scares me that Blizzard can't seem to make up their mind as to wether or not they agree with that sentiment.

[Yatokth]

My point of view: As much as Ret Paladins are OP at the moment I suspect it's because, by and large, they got a lot more of their Wrath abilities at 70 than any other class. I think that Blizzard has balanced the game based on Level 80 instead.

Needless to say, however, being 3-shot by a Ret Paladin in RESTO SPEC of all things is frustrating to no end, and make deciding upon a spec hard - because I don't know if it's Resto sucking for PvP now (the healing it does seems so minimal compared to how it used to be) or if it's because the game is just unbalanced as it is right now.

Ret Paladins are more OP than I've ever seen any other class be OP, and it scares me that Blizzard can't seem to make up their mind as to wether or not they agree with that sentiment.

This.

I can get them a bit far down -

And in fact I have a strategy in mind when level 80 hits. If they have all their cooldowns (Bubble, Wings, Repentance, etc) you can bet your ass I'm popping mine.

Start of the fight - Disarm, get some damage in. When they bubble, I turtle up. Shield Wall > Enraged Regen. When bubble ends, switch back to my two hander, and throw up Retaliation. Save my trinket for HoJ (as repentance only gives one extra judgement) and if needbe after the bubble is down and Retal isn't killing them = Recklessness > Bladestorm.

I don't know if it will work - but once I have all those cooldowns at my disposal (I can do it now only Enraged Regen cannot be had) I'm pretty sure I could come fairly close to winning.

But 1v1 - I'll likely always lose to a good retadin, always have.

What I'm more worried about is arena. Yes, they are more unbalanced at 70 than 80... But 20 second 7 second stuns? And then a Repentance for 10 seconds, coupled with immunity, all that damage, and healing? I've been thinking up strategies on how to fight them in 2s and 3s.. And I really can't think of anything. 2 Retadins could just walk all over me and Dio. If Dio kites, they switch to me and chain repentance him. He had to trinket out of a HoJ to get away, and even if he doesn't, that's still 10 seconds (well maybe not, I don't remember what DR cuts it down to) where I'm stuck there getting assraped by TWO retadins who ignore my armor on most of their attacks. I can Shield Wall and all that, but I don't even know if I'd live then.

And by the time Dio can finally heal me, he might be able to for about 5 seconds before he's HoJ'd. AGAIN. I mean, if we survive the double bubble, then perhaps I could fear, he could hex, and we could take one down.. But I don't think we could survive that much burst + that much CC.

I have come to the conclusion that with this much damage and the ability to make themselves immune to everything and still DO damage, Retadins do NOT need, and in fact, are overpowered in an arena setting - with all that effin CC. 20 second HoJ? GTFO.

I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to find out that double ret is our counter comp (well I wouldn't, cause I'll wager we'll run into it way too much) and it's not that bad for other comps... But show me a team that could consistently beat double ret.

[Keraph]

As a note for your strategy, Yat, don't forget that Berzerker Rage breaks Repentance. We can get rid of that without wasting trinket.

[Yatokth]

As a note for your strategy, Yat, don't forget that Berzerker Rage breaks Repentance. We can get rid of that without wasting trinket.

Oh wow.

I COMPLETELY forgot about that. Forgive my nubbery.

Still, it doesn't help in arena that much - it DOES help in 1v1 though.

And honestly, it's the arena I'm worried about.

[Akuje]

Ret paladin lf 2v2 =0

As a former ret paladin, run holy because of the amazingly stupid nerfs Im glad we finallly have a moment. Come 80 there is balance, and that is what they where after.

My only concern, is pvp is only half of the game, but because of the current abilities of Ret, they are OP in PvP, which, depending on the outcry, will equal nerfs that affect our abilities PvE.

[Moknim]

From the reports I have read, there isn't balance at 80 either and ret is still terribly OP - maybe Fhen can give us some input if he experienced it in beta.

[Malakim]

I think what makes them fairly insane at the moment is they have fantastic offensive and defensive abilities. I often heal about the same, on my FoL when specced as ret as I did when I was holy, mixed with making them instant cast quite often and melee and spell crit being the same. I will often throw out a crit heal get a nice HoT ticking after to keep myself up.

Then I also haven't seen any of my attacks do below 1k damage, specials like crusader strike and divine storm being 2k usually. I am in terrible ret gear too, some honor blues and no purples above T4 quality. So I imagine anyone with actually good ret gear is doing far far more damage.

But wait it gets even better, I can't run out of mana with judgements giving me 33% of my mana back instantly and the replenishment buff I pretty much cannot run out of mana.

So I think what makes it very powerful is you get a lot of tools in just one tree, most people to have a chance at that kind of versatility requires deep action in two trees at least.

Like I remember saying to druids when BC came out and mangle was out of control, just enjoy it while you have it. I doubt it will last.

[Keraph]

The healing boost we got as a result of +healing merging with +spellpower makes it so ret paladins can heal for a LOT more without stacking +heal. I noticed this as my own heals as Holy are MUCH higher now with no change to gear or extra healing talents.

[Kaliera]

For what it's worth, Ret is still ridiculous at 80 too, so it's not just a "too many wrath abilities" syndrome. The crux of the issue is something I believe Malakim stated above: they have too many offensive capabilities to be paired with their new defensive capabilities. Hell, Zuffid is currently critting Holy Lights as Ret for higher than he could as Holy pre-3.0. When he can also pull 9k+ burst damage out of his ass, that's not right.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11228403882&sid=2000

On the plus side, it's being looked into.

[Yatokth]

For what it's worth, Ret is still ridiculous at 80 too, so it's not just a "too many wrath abilities" syndrome. The crux of the issue is something I believe Malakim stated above: they have too many offensive capabilities to be paired with their new defensive capabilities. Hell, Zuffid is currently critting Holy Lights as Ret for higher than he could as Holy pre-3.0. When he can also pull 9k+ burst damage out of his ass, that's not right.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11228403882&sid=2000

On the plus side, it's being looked into.

TO THE GROUND BABY.

[Cpike]

Not that I play, but uh..if it's true that at 80 Ret paladins are still beefed up, it won't last long. The two prime examples are Ret paladins right before Burning crusade when talents were released. It was said they were going to be the power house and Bzzzt, wrong! The other example being the 2.0 Holydins, which only lasted one season. (And even longer for others to realize how crap they were for people not playing as one or a rarely played alt.)

So unless that mutated cousin of E.T of a pvp lead dev has one as a main (Yes, he does have that influence because after all, it's just a game, not a congress to run a country) has a Ret as his main, it will get nerfed quick and hard. Then people can return to their 2 year untouched ruling of Resto druids or whichever class Blizzard decides with this upcoming expansion.

[Kaliera]

Then people can return to their 2 year untouched ruling of Resto druids or whichever class Blizzard decides with this upcoming expansion.

It definitely won't be restoration druids. Damn near every class got something to counter them, and they got their abilities toned down to the point of near uselessness even disregarding said counters. Watching a Death Knight mow over a restoration druid like a lawnmower fighting a scrap of paper is amusing, for a bit.

[Yatokth]

It definitely won't be restoration druids. Damn near every class got something to counter them, and they got their abilities toned down to the point of near uselessness even disregarding said counters. Watching a Death Knight mow over a restoration druid like a lawnmower fighting a scrap of paper is amusing, for a bit.

Yeah Resto got owned in the face.

However, they aren't done balancing.

It is inevitable that some classes will end up on the bottom rung-ish areas of PvP/Arenas, but what Blizz CAN control is the gap - and the smaller the gap, the more the likelihood of a certain class, while not being as good in as many comps as a class 'better' in arena, has its own comps it shines in.

I have faith that Blizz will balance druids (lol) into being viable in some aspects/comps.

But it's also 3.0 - AKA WotLK at 70. Imbalance inc.

[Kaliera]

I have faith that Blizz will balance druids (lol) into being viable in some aspects/comps.


I admire your faith. I lost mine years ago. :x

I do hope they learn from five years of mistakes. Even if they don't, Wrath has at least opened up a REALLY appealing PvE system that will wrap me up even if the PvP remains as awful as it is currently at 80. As much as I love PvP, I'm beginning to look far more towards crushing Icecrown Citadel than I am in crushing Wintergrasp. :<

[Yatokth]

I admire your faith. I lost mine years ago. :x

I do hope they learn from five years of mistakes. Even if they don't, Wrath has at least opened up a REALLY appealing PvE system that will wrap me up even if the PvP remains as awful as it is currently at 80. As much as I love PvP, I'm beginning to look far more towards crushing Icecrown Citadel than I am in crushing Wintergrasp. :<

I think it was once said very well -

"Warriors did well at the start of TBC in spite of their talents, instead of because of them."

While this was cited as a PROBLEM - I think it is a reason that people like me enjoy the game as much and actually think it's more balanced than most people do - and when we see something wrong we're pretty sure they'll fix it. Because we take what we have and run with it - I'm not saying you're bad, or other people that don't are, it's just easier to see how the whole thing works if you look at it through a positive frame of mind.

Of course, you can also close your ears, put on your rosey colored glasses and go LA LA LA IM NOT LISTENING.

I can still recognize problems (O HAI MACE STUN) I just know that they will get fixed, and since an MMO is always changing, rolling with the punches is the best way to both maximize your fun AND your skill.

And hell yeah man, do what you wanna do - if PvP in wrath is stale, go for PvE. I'll be doing both, but mostly focused on PvP (As I absolutely love wrath PvP - I haven't played at 80 but the new abilities look very enjoyable and it isn't as far off balance as many of the people on beta say it is - note that not all of those people are good, or used to their new shit yet.) and I'm looking forward to it.

[Kaliera]

You might be a bit more spiteful if the promise of "the expansion will fix everything" had been thrown at your class, dangled in front of it's face, then pulled away like some never ending carrot on a stick.

Balance and Feral sucked ass in Pre-BC, leaving Restoration as the only truly viable spec to work with. With the then upcoming BC expansion, the promise was that Balance and Feral would become viable specs, giving druids an option to excel with outside of restoration. What ended up happening? Balance remained awful all around, and feral managed to be crowned "off-tanks" in PvE while still blowing in PvP.

So, as we near the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, once more the general development outlook is "the expansion will fix everything." Forgive me if I don't look on with a cheery and positive outlook after having seen my favorite class dragged through the dirt for five years.


That said, I do have a very positive outlook on the upcoming Death Knight class, and I believe that the tools at it's disposal will be incredibly fun to toy around with. Even if the class turns out to be poor PvP dps (DKs are currently doing unbalanced damage at 80 considering their cooldowns, nerfs are expected), the class will still have plenty of utility to justify positions in arena teams. For the first time in years, I'm genuinely excited for an expansion, and the root (HARHAR!) cause of this is that I won't be playing my druid. :D

[Taknar]

So yeah, ret paladin thread.

I think the largest issue is that with two "stop doing stuff" buttons, crusader strike, divine storm and well timed judgements with seal of command they can easily take out half your health bar. Well, they take out half of mine anyways. The first time I fought one I was overwhelmed. The other times I had the right timing of my burst heals to keep myself up over the long run and managed to holy fire and mind blast him down.

My issue is that with this new burst, and their ability to remove all my dots, and their new ability to recover from mana burn (33&#37; mana on judgements? What were they thinking?!) I'm not sure how to handle them anymore. There is no longer any obvious recourse. When they start figuring out that Lightwell can be killed (You didn't get that from me) I don't know how I will handle it.

[Yatokth]

You might be a bit more spiteful if the promise of "the expansion will fix everything" had been thrown at your class, dangled in front of it's face, then pulled away like some never ending carrot on a stick.

Balance and Feral sucked ass in Pre-BC, leaving Restoration as the only truly viable spec to work with. With the then upcoming BC expansion, the promise was that Balance and Feral would become viable specs, giving druids an option to excel with outside of restoration. What ended up happening? Balance remained awful all around, and feral managed to be crowned "off-tanks" in PvE while still blowing in PvP.

So, as we near the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, once more the general development outlook is "the expansion will fix everything." Forgive me if I don't look on with a cheery and positive outlook after having seen my favorite class dragged through the dirt for five years.


That said, I do have a very positive outlook on the upcoming Death Knight class, and I believe that the tools at it's disposal will be incredibly fun to toy around with. Even if the class turns out to be poor PvP dps (DKs are currently doing unbalanced damage at 80 considering their cooldowns, nerfs are expected), the class will still have plenty of utility to justify positions in arena teams. For the first time in years, I'm genuinely excited for an expansion, and the root (HARHAR!) cause of this is that I won't be playing my druid. :D

Balance is getting buffed - Keep up to date on the drood beta forums. ;)

I dunno about feral though.

And as for Ret... Yeah, just a bit crazy. I don't think they need to be nerfed TO THE GROUND BABY, but just a bit.

[Kaliera]

Balance is getting buffed - Keep up to date on the drood beta forums. ;)

I dunno about feral though.

And as for Ret... Yeah, just a bit crazy. I don't think they need to be nerfed TO THE GROUND BABY, but just a bit.

*Facepalm*

I'm -in- the beta. Of course I'm keeping up to date with the changes. The issue isn't with the scaling or anything of the sort, it's how the class plays. Mana-reliant casters with no silence/interrupt nor 10 second CC are casters who get passed up for mages/spriests/locks. That's the issue. The buffs in store for balance are one's intended to fix the talent tree bloading, which will be amazing for PvE, but it still won't fix the PvP issues.

Feral is in a very similar boat. They're as squishy as rogues in their damage form, but they completely lack the control that allows rogues to exist while being squishy. Berserk used to be their answer to that, but it's been since nerfed.


On topic, I highly doubt that Retribution damage will get much of a nerf. I fully anticipate that the damage-while-stunned portion of judgements will be tweaked, and/or HoJ/Repentance will be looked at. If the damage gets tweaked too much, they'll be useless in PvE, and Blizzard has stated that they have no intentions on leaving any dps spec left in the dust in that department. Thankfully, PvE encounters aren't based around stunned targets, so that aspect can be freely tweaked without ruining Retribution in raids. :)

[Yatokth]

*Facepalm*

I'm -in- the beta. Of course I'm keeping up to date with the changes. The issue isn't with the scaling or anything of the sort, it's how the class plays. Mana-reliant casters with no silence/interrupt nor 10 second CC are casters who get passed up for mages/spriests/locks. That's the issue. The buffs in store for balance are one's intended to fix the talent tree bloading, which will be amazing for PvE, but it still won't fix the PvP issues.

Feral is in a very similar boat. They're as squishy as rogues in their damage form, but they completely lack the control that allows rogues to exist while being squishy. Berserk used to be their answer to that, but it's been since nerfed.


On topic, I highly doubt that Retribution damage will get much of a nerf. I fully anticipate that the damage-while-stunned portion of judgements will be tweaked, and/or HoJ/Repentance will be looked at. If the damage gets tweaked too much, they'll be useless in PvE, and Blizzard has stated that they have no intentions on leaving any dps spec left in the dust in that department. Thankfully, PvE encounters aren't based around stunned targets, so that aspect can be freely tweaked without ruining Retribution in raids. :)

Ah, my bad. Forgot.

I did notice that when I skimmed the balance changes. I was puzzled when Berserk was nerfed to only fear effects myself, was it too powerful? o.O

As for Ret, that's exactly what I was thinking. I foresee a bit of CC toning down, and the Crit-Bonus-While-Stunned toning down. Perhaps their damage as a whole a bit down, but doubtful. It's the burst + the immunity + CC that's killer.

[Resinous]

I was smacking ret paladins around last night. Maybe I was just dueling bad ones I guess.

[Kaliera]

Mages actually have a solid shot against them. Blink has a shorter cooldown than HoJ, which then saves the PvP trinket for Repentance. From there, it's just a matter of abusing instants, spellstealing Hand of Freedom, and saving Iceblock for the bubble. Ret may be a beast, but it can't hurt what it can't touch, and Mages excel at not being touched. :D

[Yatokth]

Mages actually have a solid shot against them. Blink has a shorter cooldown than HoJ, which then saves the PvP trinket for Repentance. From there, it's just a matter of abusing instants, spellstealing Hand of Freedom, and saving Iceblock for the bubble. Ret may be a beast, but it can't hurt what it can't touch, and Mages excel at not being touched. :D

Pretty much this.

Anyone who can kite can beat a retadin 1v1.

It's the arena issue.

[Lelenia]

I grouped with a 65 ret paladin to run Shadow Labs...he managed to kill a dungeon-3 geared 70 shaman, beat our 69 rogue in a duel, and out DPSed the rogue and our 68 fury warrior through the entire run....

I'm freaking scared of them...even moreso than I was of rogues. <.<

[Sanrin]

Why is this even a discussion? Did everyone forget the LAST time this happened, when everyone was given their talents and abilities premature to the expansion? We were absurd back then too, in fact everyone was a little crazy. Ret has always been an exceptional talent tree, though mostly made fun of because a lot of people like to joke that paladins are the same as when 1.1 was released. Its just now they've been given a few more tools to make their job easier! Wait till 80, then see how things pan out. I'm sure a lot of changes are going to take place from now till then regardless.

[NotMaithanet]

Why is this even a discussion? Did everyone forget the LAST time this happened, when everyone was given their talents and abilities premature to the expansion? We were absurd back then too, in fact everyone was a little crazy. Ret has always been an exceptional talent tree, though mostly made fun of because a lot of people like to joke that paladins are the same as when 1.1 was released. Its just now they've been given a few more tools to make their job easier! Wait till 80, then see how things pan out. I'm sure a lot of changes are going to take place from now till then regardless.


Try more "Experiences with Paladins" as opposed to discussion.

[Yatokth]

Try more "Experiences with Paladins" as opposed to discussion.

I HATE PALADINS QQ

Appropriate thread title.

[Muatah]

First nerf took less than 48 hours. "Divine" Storm is now doing Physical damage, instead of Holy damage.

No post by Blizzard saying they were doing it, of course. It was noticed by Players.

Let the whiners rejoice.

.

[Taknar]

First nerf took less than 48 hours. "Divine" Storm is now doing Physical damage, instead of Holy damage.

No post by Blizzard saying they were doing it, of course. It was noticed by Players.

Let the whiners rejoice.

.

Why do you feel that this change was not called for? I feel that having so many powerful burst abilities with no way to mitigate them is a large issue.

Oh the post for the announcement is here: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/5/11296670044-retribution-paladin-changes.html

[Muatah]

Because everyone has insane burst damage right now. Have you seen what a geared Shaman can do in the blink of an eye? It's crazy. I can get killed in 3 seconds too, and thats with 10.5k health and 345 Resilience.

People fight someone geared when they have garbage stats, get wrecked in a blink, and then go whine about it on the Forums. Sad thing is, the Devs listen, and implement hotfixes/nerfs without even telling anyone about it.

[Muatah]

Meh. So they finally post about it, and it's worse than I thought.

"Back off the changes."............. my ass. How stupid does he think people are.

[Yatokth]

First nerf took less than 48 hours. "Divine" Storm is now doing Physical damage, instead of Holy damage.

No post by Blizzard saying they were doing it, of course. It was noticed by Players.

Let the whiners rejoice.

.

http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/10/16/divine-storm-now-less-divine/

Hotfix nerfed second day.

Owned.

[Muatah]

Owned.

Remind me to laugh in your face the next time you get nerfed.

Jackass.

[Keraph]

We get nerfed all the time. But to be constructive, come on. Everybody DID see something to this effect coming. Even Ret paladins new they'd be getting nerfed. It was legitimately imbalanced, and a large amount of people did agree with this. I think these changes are overall pretty fair (Far as judgement of Light goes....dear god, as a holy pally I'll say it definately won't hurt from the cut. I was healing far too much for not having to actually cast any spells X.x)

[Yatokth]

Remind me to laugh in your face the next time you get nerfed.

Jackass.


We get nerfed all the time. But to be constructive, come on. Everybody DID see something to this effect coming. Even Ret paladins new they'd be getting nerfed. It was legitimately imbalanced, and a large amount of people did agree with this. I think these changes are overall pretty fair (Far as judgement of Light goes....dear god, as a holy pally I'll say it definately won't hurt from the cut. I was healing far too much for not having to actually cast any spells X.x)

Yeah, see Keraph's post man.

Retadins were imbalanced. Were I playing a Retadin, or if Warriors were imbalanced, I would laugh in my OWN face when I got freaking smacked down (deservedly) with nerfs.

No one -likes- nerfs, but please, we all saw this coming.

Chill.

[Raziel]

2 Retribution Paladins killed a 6-man Assault team in AB without dying.

Then they stole my 401(k) and used Avenging Wrath on the Dow with a 4000 Point hit in the NYSE.

[Naheal]

We get nerfed all the time. But to be constructive, come on. Everybody DID see something to this effect coming. Even Ret paladins new they'd be getting nerfed. It was legitimately imbalanced, and a large amount of people did agree with this. I think these changes are overall pretty fair (Far as judgement of Light goes....dear god, as a holy pally I'll say it definately won't hurt from the cut. I was healing far too much for not having to actually cast any spells X.x)

Read as "functional, therefore, bad."

This isn't a stab at you Ker. Hell, I know you've got a pally of your own, so you should know what I'm refering to with this, though. I would have appreciated a slight decrease in the DS raw damage and keep it holy damage. Why? Please explain to me why physical hits are healing you. Also, I rather like the feel of ret with a higher amount of spell-based damage.

In fact, I've got an idea with this: Make Divine storm both based on SP (less so) and AP (more so). Have the SP effect the amount of holy damage put out while having the AP effect the amount of physical damage put out.

[Keraph]

I would admit it if I felt that Divine Storm could be considered 'functioning properly'. It just did too much too fast. If they cut the damage but kept it Holy, sure, I could be happy with that too. They just went a different direction with it. And your suggestion also sounds pretty valid. All I'm saying is that in the state it previously was, it was just a tad silly.

[Resinous]

I really didn't notice this issue. Maybe my Ice barrier was absorbing enough to make me not notice. Now that my Ice barrier freezes people when it breaks and my fingers of frost seems to procc alot off of melee hits to my ice armor, I really don't care what they give melee classes. The tougher they make you guys the more fun you are to fight.

[Taknar]

Cutting the damage in half and making it holy again is a larger nerf to damage than just making it physical.

[Yatokth]

Read as "functional, therefore, bad."

If you don't think you were ridiculous and imbalanced...

Don't know what to say man.

Yeah, you were gimped more than some others for TBC. Not a justification for being OP now.

[Fhenrir]

Remember to keep it civil please.

That being said, my paladin (Zuffid) has topped both damage and healing meters (at the same time) in multiple Warsongs by over 50k. Kali can attest to this.

Granted this was also with DS still doing holy damage, and pre-hidden SoC nerf. Today, I've been just as fine in PvP, though feeling ever-so-slightly less godlike.

[Naheal]

If you don't think you were ridiculous and imbalanced...

Don't know what to say man.

Yeah, you were gimped more than some others for TBC. Not a justification for being OP now.

I was refering to how pallies have been "fixed" in the past. I'm forseeing another nerf like that, so, call me cynical. Half the time when we'd get something that would be functional, it would be removed or nerfed into the ground.

[Yatokth]

Remember to keep it civil please.

That being said, my paladin (Zuffid) has topped both damage and healing meters (at the same time) in multiple Warsongs by over 50k. Kali can attest to this.

Granted this was also with DS still doing holy damage, and pre-hidden SoC nerf. Today, I've been just as fine in PvP, though feeling ever-so-slightly less godlike.

I feel once the other three changes go through you'll be totally balanced. I could be wrong, but just seeing how it is now and what those changes will do... Yeah.


I was refering to how pallies have been "fixed" in the past. I'm forseeing another nerf like that, so, call me cynical. Half the time when we'd get something that would be functional, it would be removed or nerfed into the ground.

I can understand that pallies sucked in TBC. I really do - I arena'd with one. But this whole thread is about Ret - they haven't done a thing to your bacon, bro. :P

[Lisbet]

In the word of TN's ret god " We are OP, but not terribly so. They are going to do more tweaking and such because it's stupid in PvP, but if they do it'll be in ways that it won't be a nerf in pve, where the damage increase is supposed to be most beneficial. Changing divine storm to physical damage makes it able to be mitigated, which is a GOOD FIX. Its not that it does "OP damage", its that it does(did) damage that cannot be resisted."

[Sanrin]

I really didn't notice this issue. Maybe my Ice barrier was absorbing enough to make me not notice. Now that my Ice barrier freezes people when it breaks and my fingers of frost seems to procc alot off of melee hits to my ice armor, I really don't care what they give melee classes. The tougher they make you guys the more fun you are to fight.

I like the way you think. I do feel you should win the gold star of the thread.

[Yatokth]

I really didn't notice this issue. Maybe my Ice barrier was absorbing enough to make me not notice. Now that my Ice barrier freezes people when it breaks and my fingers of frost seems to procc alot off of melee hits to my ice armor, I really don't care what they give melee classes. The tougher they make you guys the more fun you are to fight.

Actually, this is kind of how I feel about retadins at the moment.

They're a tough fight for me, but I HAVE beat them (mostly since the hotfixes) and it's very fun to try strategies and see how close I can get.

As opposed to curb stomping some priest. Gets a tad old.

[Averilyna]

Actually, this is kind of how I feel about retadins at the moment.

They're a tough fight for me, but I HAVE beat them (mostly since the hotfixes) and it's very fun to try strategies and see how close I can get.

As opposed to curb stomping some priest. Gets a tad old.

*cries after being curb stomped in the face multiple times.*

Yeah, as has probably been mentioned already, I'm finding that what's making Ret so OP right now is the combination of good cc/cc resistance and burst damage. TBH, as far as I can tell, Ret Pallys aren't bursting much harder than some other classes (Shamans, Warriors, good Rogues, possibly Mages/Locks). The difference is, they have Repentance and HoJ, and the ability to break any and all cc put on them (bubble). This allows them to interrupt heals and make sure you can't recover from the damage they're doing, which they really couldn't do before (not terribly well anyway).

[Leoren]

In the word of TN's ret god " We are OP, but not terribly so. They are going to do more tweaking and such because it's stupid in PvP, but if they do it'll be in ways that it won't be a nerf in pve, where the damage increase is supposed to be most beneficial. Changing divine storm to physical damage makes it able to be mitigated, which is a GOOD FIX. Its not that it does "OP damage", its that it does(did) damage that cannot be resisted."

Huh. When did Anorah say that? Ret gods don't tend to get three shot by their own kind ;).

[Chikt]

Huh. When d--

Less posting more writing! *Whips*

I have to admit, I am disappointed about the change to Repentance in PvP, but then the stuns that Paladins get seem to be all the more effective now and I can KINDA understand why it would be removed (Ret Paladins have a lot more burst than rogues, which is more situational). In any case, I AM happy that they at least toned down that DPS a tad. Paladins WEREN'T massively OP, they were OP enough to really stand out as THE new class to play in WoW. But I honestly expect a far more balanced game going into Wrath, and we're certainly closer to it now than we were before.

Particularly with shaman. But that's another story.

[Lisbet]

You know who I ment!

[Kaliera]

You know who I ment!

Zuffid.

[Skaadvik]

Cavanaugh told me that one huge difference he's noticed is that Seal of Command now procs off of CS and DS. That's got to have a lot to do with the rediculous damage they've been doing.

[Naheal]

Cavanaugh told me that one huge difference he's noticed is that Seal of Command now procs off of CS and DS. That's got to have a lot to do with the rediculous damage they've been doing.

Actually, all of ours are at the moment.

I'm also glad that they fixed SoV before they decided to give Vengance and Blood to both factions.

[Anorah]

You know who I ment!

XD ME!!!

[Leoren]

You know who I ment!

Chuck Norris!

[Heidenreich]

Fynne said it right the other night in Sunwell . . .

I'm the muthaf'n ASHBRINGER!!!

Ok those weren't Fynne's words, but he did call me the Ashbringer. ;)

Everything I said from the moment PTR went live has happened so far to Paladins. They are lowering the Ret Paladins game with a RNG and giving them more sustained damage.

Divine Storm going to Physical Damage and no longer proccing Seal of Command...was a change that was more then needed.

Art of War's change very welcomed.

Righteous Vengeance....you are going to give me a Holy Version of Deep Wounds, that I can Repent a person in and /lol at them before they die.....YES PLEASE!

Now this will make the people who want to be OP and roll their face on their keyboard cry. BUT F**K them. 95% of Ret Paladins are still crap. Pathetic when I can queue a BG and 1v2 Ret Paladins still (and of course I'm purely in PvE Gear ;) ) and I don't really PvP, when I do I use Seal of the Martyr now cause I'm to cheap to respec to have Command.

The changes will once again define the Heidenreich's from the good; good from the bad; bad to the people who need to just reroll.

Remember to bow down next time you see me!

[Anorah]

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s27/Hshafruddin/WoWScrnShot_101808_003424.jpg


The changes will once again define the Heidenreich's from the good; good from the bad; bad to the people who need to just reroll.

Remember to bow down next time you see me!

/bow?

XD That was a fun encounter all in all. A Ret Paladin with heals backing them up is hell to fight, that's for sure.

All that aside, I'm with Heid on the changes. Much as I prefer burst.. It's pretty ridiculous. I think they're really moving the Ret tree in the right direction. For the first time in three Ret Paladins I really feel like I expected to when I first envisioned the class. And now with a dot, STILL impressive burst/dps and all my utility, I'll be going into Wrath charging.

I'm for the 'nerfs' as people call them, so long as it doesn't turn into another Pre-BC fiasco where they take away the shiny new car they just gave us, I'll be fine.

Let's duel again Heid ^^ we'll always have the Silvermoon Ruins :P

[Heidenreich]

HEY NOW!!! You guys only killed me after I had 65 kills and at least 30 Killing Blows. My screen just kept lighting up with the word Killing Blow! Then all of a sudden I saw my raid group start to pull back, then was dead. :( I got lite up by like seven people at once (I saw a Frostbolt & Shadowbolt flying at me and people rushing towards me :( )...it hurt bad!



/bow?

XD That was a fun encounter all in all. A Ret Paladin with heals backing them up is hell to fight, that's for sure.

AND YES!!! THAT WAS A HELL OF A LOT OF FUN!!! I kept getting told to get out of the hallway, but I kept charging in and killing people regardless!!!

Do Screen Shots of my corpse like get collected and put in the Raven Cross HoF section? Just curious on why I AM THE ONE SINGLED OUT THERE!!!

NOW BOW TO THE KING!!! THE KING OF KINGS!!! ON YOUR KNEES DOGS!!!

[Anorah]

Chaotic for sure :D I saw you in the raid and couldn't resist. Jumped in and started poundin away, have to toss a kudos to your healers. Were you guys going after Thrall?

Heh, I know how you feel.. Last AB I was in, I topped KB's, Damage, HK's AND caps. It's utterly ridiculous what a skilled player can do with this class now. The potential just shot up. And the crappy ones.. well, they still do crappy. Balance is good, hopefully it'll get better. It still is a bit tipped in our favor.

[Leoren]

Do Screen Shots of my corpse like get collected and put in the Raven Cross HoF section?

Only the pretentious ones ;).

[Anorah]

AND YES!!! THAT WAS A HELL OF A LOT OF FUN!!! I kept getting told to get out of the hallway, but I kept charging in and killing people regardless!!!

Do Screen Shots of my corpse like get collected and put in the Raven Cross HoF section? Just curious on why I AM THE ONE SINGLED OUT THERE!!!

NOW BOW TO THE KING!!! THE KING OF KINGS!!! ON YOUR KNEES DOGS!!!

Haha, nah. I've been away for a fairly long time. Saw you in there and gunned for you, then took an SS when the wreckage cleared. I don't really do it that typically.

[Chikt]

Do Screen Shots of my corpse like get collected and put in the Raven Cross HoF section? Just curious on why I AM THE ONE SINGLED OUT THERE!!!

We have a screenshot gallery called "Heidenreich's Corpse", but it got filled so quickly that the server crashed and all our pictures were wiped.

It was a sad, sad day for the Raven Cross.

But THIS makes me happy! :D

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r217/DMDyet/Pallypunting.jpg

[Heidenreich]

I had both of my pocket Druids with me. Both of the guys are monsters at PvE and PvP Healing. One of them and Myself on Monday night kept 10 Horde locked down inside the starting area in AB for almost an entire game. I think they were both killed before me, cause honestly the two of them healing me at the same time makes me pretty close to having a permanent Divine Shield on. >.>

Speaking of Divine Shield!!! I was 7 seconds shy of using it when I died! It made me a sad panda bear.

But no we weren't after Thrall....not just yet! ;) We just wanted to get the kills we needed inside of Org for the one Achievement. Then I kinda got carried away and went on a murder spre

[Rand_Shea]

Do Screen Shots of my corpse like get collected and put in the Raven Cross HoF section? Just curious on why I AM THE ONE SINGLED OUT THERE!!!


Sorry... all my gold goes towards the Fynne trading card game.

Currently I only have the "Legendary Swashbuckler" deck. I'm working on getting the "Half naked Demon Hunter" one. It gives a +10 bonus against anything female that isn't a man-hating feminist. I hope to have it by the time Darkmoon Faire returns to Mulgore.

[Heidenreich]

We have a screenshot gallery called "Heidenreich's Corpse", but it got filled so quickly that the server crashed and all our pictures were wiped.

It was a sad, sad day for the Raven Cross.

THIS SIR IS A LIE!!!

I honestly don't even think I have had more then two or three actual encounters with you guys. I can think of Hillsbrad and Arathi and this one time near Silvermoon, where I left my Vashj Mace equipped and got roflpwned for it.

BUT DON'T WORRY!!! I'm gonna start being less of a care bear and more of my old self again. So I'm sure you will get plenty of SS of my corpse, but it will be your skeletons surrounding it!!!

MUHAHAHAHA!!!

[Skaadvik]

In related news, Holy is also pretty insane now. I can effortlessly have 50% more healing than the next guy, and my Holy Light crits are like 10k with a trinket and AW going, and they tend to crit a lot. I think healing is easier for me to be good at because I spent so long as shock trying to balance healing with my burst... but now I can just heal people's faces off.

I guess all I'm saying is I feel like Holy has also gotten an enormous buff. You just don't notice it so much because Holy Paladins aren't running around cutting people in half.

[Bir]

I dueled a well geared ret paladin on my crummy human affliction warlock and I must say that I could only win when his bubble was down.

Otherwise, he owned my face but he blamed it on gear.
Skill>Gear

Don't care what anyone says.

[Moknim]

My main problem with Ret has not really been the burst damage (although it is insane), but the mana issues they don't have.

As an example, on my Shaman (lvl 66) a retadin (lvl 67) came and ganked me when I was at about 1/2 health and full mana. I got him down to about 3/4 health before dying. When I found my body, healed/drank and then found him - He was at about 1/2 health and pretty full mana. The "duel" ensued, I tore him down to about 10&#37; health, he bubbled, healed to full and went back at me - I expected it and healed during his bubble. But now, I am OOM and he is at about 60% mana. I have had water shield up the whole time to try to get mana back, but it doesn't do much. He then smashed my face in since I could just do white damage to him and he could stun and smash my face.

Basically, I went from full mana => none doing healing/damage while he went from Full mana => 50% while still retaining invulnerability and stuns. I have no invulnerability and no stuns...but that gets into LOLEnhancementPvP which this isn't about.

[Yatokth]

I dueled a well geared ret paladin on my crummy human affliction warlock and I must say that I could only win when his bubble was down.

Otherwise, he owned my face but he blamed it on gear.
Skill>Gear

Don't care what anyone says.

I pop Retaliation on Retadins and watch them kill themselves.

It's glorious.

[Tirralys]

Yesterday, a call went out for help in Hellfire penn. while I was there farming herbs for inscription. I answered the call, and me and an elemental shaman, along with the 58 hunter who was getting camped, answered the call.

All three of us got wtfpwned by the 70 ret paladin, and a 58 accomplice (we killed him first though). In the end, it was just me and the shaman, versus a single ret pally.

Now, I know I haven't played in a while, and I was protection, but even through healing and stunning him, he was taking little damage, and was dealing much much more to the both of us, and the fact that one heal fully healed him -kind- of made it look more like Ret paladins are overly unbalanced.

Hell, the fact that I, as a prot paladin, can heal half my health in one holy light is a bit absurd as well.

Paladins need an overhaul.

[Shalis]

I'm certainly glad that average ret paladins are taking this time to boast incessantly. Good lord that's obnoxious.

I would level a warrior just to see Retaliation against one of them, heh. It's fun to try to match cooldowns with them, but until I get my Glyph of Preparation for a second Dismantle I still don't stand a chance >.>

[Heidenreich]

In related news, Holy is also pretty insane now. I can effortlessly have 50% more healing than the next guy, and my Holy Light crits are like 10k with a trinket and AW going, and they tend to crit a lot. I think healing is easier for me to be good at because I spent so long as shock trying to balance healing with my burst... but now I can just heal people's faces off.

I guess all I'm saying is I feel like Holy has also gotten an enormous buff. You just don't notice it so much because Holy Paladins aren't running around cutting people in half.

IT'S BECAUSE OF BACON OF LIGHT!!!!

[Advurb]

nerf em

[Yatokth]

I'm certainly glad that average ret paladins are taking this time to boast incessantly. Good lord that's obnoxious.

I would level a warrior just to see Retaliation against one of them, heh. It's fun to try to match cooldowns with them, but until I get my Glyph of Preparation for a second Dismantle I still don't stand a chance >.>

Yeah I can't beat a GOOD retadin (I think I'll have a shot once the +crit damage nerfs go through) but all those mediocre-to-terribad ones I just curb stomp cause they're so busy loling at big numbers that they don't realize that every time they hit me with em I'm smacking them back for weapon damage, PLUS the attacks I'm smashing them with.

Then they lose and shut the fuck up.

It's great.

EDIT: Fuck dismantle. >.> WTB Weapon Mastery back in Arms.


IT'S BECAUSE OF BACON OF LIGHT!!!!

OMNOMNOMNOM

[Thrysta]

((
Did my first post-patch playing today, with mods back up and re-spec'd.
Ran into a paladin in WSG in essentially a 1v1 situation.

Got my ass tore up within about 4 seconds, on 3-4 hits.

Definitely a bit shocking, but I looked at my combat log and adjusted.
Anticpating the massive burst damage and accurately dispelling helped
me adjust to the post-patch ret pally and put me back into a comfort
zone.

Without a doubt, after an afternoon of constant PvP, the changes in
the paladin class were the most pronounced to me, of any opponent.
))

[Keraph]

In related news, Holy is also pretty insane now. I can effortlessly have 50% more healing than the next guy, and my Holy Light crits are like 10k with a trinket and AW going, and they tend to crit a lot. I think healing is easier for me to be good at because I spent so long as shock trying to balance healing with my burst... but now I can just heal people's faces off.

I guess all I'm saying is I feel like Holy has also gotten an enormous buff. You just don't notice it so much because Holy Paladins aren't running around cutting people in half.

As another paladin who chose to stay Holy, I've been extremely happy with my numbers. The reason I think Ret healing is a bit much is because due to the gear changes, more of our healing power is just base, so they're healing like we USED to, which is still a lot.

I am loving the Holy additions though. Waited out my alar trinket proc (+290), popped my trinket (+150) and Avenging Wrath (+20%), and hit my proc-a-crit, tossed a 15k Holy Light. Yum. And the Holy Light glyph is so sick that I can't even talk about it <3

[Naheal]

I'm certainly glad that average ret paladins are taking this time to boast incessantly. Good lord that's obnoxious.

I would level a warrior just to see Retaliation against one of them, heh. It's fun to try to match cooldowns with them, but until I get my Glyph of Preparation for a second Dismantle I still don't stand a chance >.>

A good ret pally was a pain to deal with before. They're downright frightening now.

[Moknim]

I haven't been PvP'ing on my druid since the patch. I did run some BGs today on my shaman, and all I have to say is: Fuck Ret.

I have no shot against a retadin even 7 levels below me. The increased crit chance on hammer of wrath is ridiculous, even if I live through the first stun, they have JoJ on me and I can't get out of melee. Oh, and they have a second stun. Oh, and they have invulnerability.

It is unreal. Which side had a retadin determined who won the game and how fast.

[Cpike]

Reminds me when WSG depended on who got their Resto druid across the field first with the flag. :p

Seriously, paladins have the SHORTEST life spans of OP. If main paladin players had to put up for a long time where warlocks ruled, then the fotm switched to rogues, and resto druids. People can put up with paladins for a month.

[Anorah]

Reminds me when WSG depended on who got their Resto druid across the field first with the flag. :p

Seriously, paladins have the SHORTEST life spans of OP. If main paladin players had to put up for a long time where warlocks ruled, then the fotm switched to rogues, and resto druids. People can put up with paladins for a month.

QFT
I've played Ret since bloody release, about time I actually had something in my favor for once. I also don't believe that we're OMG OP. I think we have an edge, yeah. But the biggest problem is that a majority people are still fighting me like I'm a pre-patch Paladin. When someone smartens up and kite's, or plays more defensively, it works. Against a good player, I don't have an I win button, I still have to work for it. Which is what I like. Just now they don't have that I win button because I don't expend all my damage potential in 15 seconds. Aww, you can't cut through waves of ret paladins anymore?

Least we don't do over 11k damage in under 3 seconds, like that warrior in AV who literally Mortal Strike , Execute killed me. I'm in full plate with 400 resil. Mind you I'm not complaining. I think it's kinda cool that Warriors have that potential. And I'm happy that Paladins are actually something to fear for once.

And hearing a Resto druid tell us "fuck paladins", Priceless.

[Errigal]

If I time my fears just right and drain just enough--

and live through the initial burst...


...I can kite a terrible paladin to death.

[Yatokth]

QFT
I've played Ret since bloody release, about time I actually had something in my favor for once. I also don't believe that we're OMG OP. I think we have an edge, yeah. But the biggest problem is that a majority people are still fighting me like I'm a pre-patch Paladin. When someone smartens up and kite's, or plays more defensively, it works. Against a good player, I don't have an I win button, I still have to work for it. Which is what I like. Just now they don't have that I win button because I don't expend all my damage potential in 15 seconds. Aww, you can't cut through waves of ret paladins anymore?

Least we don't do over 11k damage in under 3 seconds, like that warrior in AV who literally Mortal Strike , Execute killed me. I'm in full plate with 400 resil. Mind you I'm not complaining. I think it's kinda cool that Warriors have that potential. And I'm happy that Paladins are actually something to fear for once.

And hearing a Resto druid tell us "fuck paladins", Priceless.

Clearly this dude was from the future - a level 80 Warrior with full Season 8 and a weapon with 1337.0 DPS.

Seriously though, 11k hp, 400 res, on PLATE? Assuming he crits you for 2K with Mortal Strike (Which is GENEROUS - More around 1200-1500 in my experience.) then he'd have to have around 3000 Attack Power (To give perspective, I consider myself in quite good gear, and I have ~2100 attack power buffed) in order to do an execute crit big enough to chunk off the rest of your health. BEFORE Armor or Resilience.

Unless this guy was stacking damage multipliers out the ass (I don't think berserking exists in AV) from some nebulous source, or OMGHAXING -

That is impossible.

Or you weren't at full health. I've done that. :P

EDIT:

And let me note, most of the people who cry about not beating retadins 1v1 need to l2p. In fact, most of the people crying about retadins in general need to l2p.

BUT

There is a very real reason that your burst is being toned down - Stacking retadins in arena is ungodly powerful, because you can just pump out that burst, CC other targets, and be completely immune to CC or damage whilst doing so.

It's nearly impossible to heal through that amount of burst coupled with the CC timing a skilled retadin will bring to the table. They simply do too much UNCOUNTERABLE (key word here - arcane mages, warriors, and rogues do plenty of burst - but it is COUNTERABLE) burst in arena. Long and short of it.

It's getting turned into more long-term damage, so your burst goes down (note: ITS STILL BADASS - just not as massively overwhelming when stacking retadins) but your damage output remains largely the same. All the bads you are currently curb stomping, you will still curb stomp, you will just do it slightly differently.

Oh, and as a side note, I have ALWAYS feared a paladin - skilled players made that class a beast BEFORE this patch. They're just a bit easier to handle this time, and the skilled players are soaring. (Sort of the opposite of Warriors in that respect - all the terrible warriors are being revealed now, whereas the skilled ones (I'm not going to say I'm amazing warr god, but I consider myself skilled) are loving it.)

[Kaliera]

And hearing a Resto druid tell us "fuck paladins", Priceless.

Good retribution paladins were always one of the two main fuck-alls of restoration druids. Stuns are bad enough, JoJ is the icing on the cake. 3.0 just made the gap unbearable, and added 8 other classes to the "Ret destroys ___" phrase.

[Moknim]

Good retribution paladins were always one of the two main fuck-alls of restoration druids. Stuns are bad enough, JoJ is the icing on the cake. 3.0 just made the gap unbearable, and added 8 other classes to the "Ret destroys ___" phrase.

Kaliera said it better than I could, and has the "I pwn" credentials to go with it (I don't). BoF and JoJ combined with stuns sucked for druids.

What I wrote was caveated - it wasn't at 70, there was no resil involved, etc. The fact of the matter is, you are nearly unkiteable for a lot of classes, have 2 stuns (I know they are on CD, but few make it that far) and can put out a crapload of intentional burst. I can put out a lot of burst right now, but it depends on a bunch of things, like a lucky WF proc, critting with Stormstrike, or getting extra lucky with both and getting a five stack of maelstrom built up (which is a random PPM). Ret can do more burst, and it is totally controlled - you get to chose when you burst.

I was seriously pissed after WSG today because of how it played. The game depended on how many retadins you had, not on any persons skill. Because even a very BAD retadin can pretty much crush anyone 1v1 and will win most battles 2v1. It was so frustrating because I got 3-shotted by level 61 retadins at level 68 before I ever got to turn to see who was attacking me because of the stun.

[Chikt]

When someone smartens up and kite's, or plays more defensively, it works.

I've ALWAYS been good at kiting other classes, I had to be - I was a Resto Shaman. But I cannot kite Paladins. You have everything to prevent kiting. I can MAYBE kite you for the first part of a fight until you get smart, pop a bubble, slow my ghost wolf to normal run speed and throw a stun on me. Then what do I do? I never live through the damage laid on me in that one stun.

Lets say I DO live through that stun. You still have an effect to remove any slowing effects from you. I can purge it, but you can just refresh it. If I stop to throw a cast at you, you get into melee range with me and can either stop the cast with your second stun or just out DPS me. Even if I get the cast off? Hooray, there goes maybe 10&#37; of your HP if I am lucky, on top of all the frost shocks I've been throwing at you to try and keep you at a distance. You are still going to lay the beat down on me the moment I stop to cast at you, and best case scenario, I get you down low enough that you need to stop to heal, throw an earthshock at you (if you haven't popped your shield to protect yourself while you do it) and maybe get a cast in before you come after me again.

You have a LOT of defensive and offensive capabilities. If I actually had hex at 70 (and BTW, I think it is STUPID that we don't get a CC until 80 after all the instances we want to do while leveling are said and done) it might be a different fight. Or if Toughness effected Stuns. Even with Astral Shift (30% reduced damage while stunned) you still eat me alive in that stun period. For me, at least, as a Shaman? I can't beat you, no matter what I do.

Unless you're standing next to a cliff. Then I can guarantee you're fucked.

[Anorah]

For me, at least, as a Shaman? I can't beat you, no matter what I do.


I'm sorry Dio. But that statement is false. If that were the case I would beat every shaman, every time unless they were near a cliff. And that hasn't happened.

[Chikt]

I'm sorry Dio. But that statement is false. If that were the case I would beat every shaman, every time unless they were near a cliff. And that hasn't happened.

Then tell me what it is they do, 1v1, that manages to take you down. Because I'm absolutely baffled as to how they do it.

EDIT: This is not to say that ret pallies are amazingly OP right now either, I'm playing just one class. But I really don't understand how an elemental shaman could beat a ret paladin on an even playing field.

[Moknim]

Then tell me what it is they do, 1v1, that manages to take you down. Because I'm absolutely baffled as to how they do it.

EDIT: This is not to say that ret pallies are amazingly OP right now either, I'm playing just one class. But I really don't understand how an elemental shaman could beat a ret paladin on an even playing field.

From what I have seen playing a shaman (although enhance) we have everything against us: we are pretty squishy, have no anti-CC, and have no CC.

My problem with Ret as it stands isn't that its ridiculous amounts of damage (it is, but all classes can put out ridiculous amounts of damage), but that it is ridiculous amounts of damage, on demand, instant cast, all while CC'ing the other player in a way that has no counter beyond your 2min. trinket. The only other CC I can think of that is only counterable by trinket is Cyclone/Blind, and you can't damage a player that is cycloned and damage breaks blind.

This makes Ret damage pretty much impervious - sure a mage can pull off ridiculous damage with a shatter combo, but if I earth shock the frostbolt? A warrior can be rooted and gotten away from (although hamstring is annoying), rogues...well, if you live through the stun lock you are fine and blind breaks on damage, Druids? loldamage - they used to be good at keeping people alive.

Ret right now is what made druids OP but the other direction - druids were good at keeping others and themselves alive on the run. Ret can do insane damage and CC on the run (no cast times) and has anti-CC capabilities (BoF). Druids were really good at living a long time in BGs, Ret is really good at demolishing every other class in BGs.

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot invulnerability and the huge healing buff they got.

[Keraph]

The healing thing is what gets me the most, I think. As a Holy paladin, seeing a ret heal for a sizeable amount in comparison to my own heals sorta makes me go "Eh?". Granted they don't have all the extra Holy stuff that I do (as I'm geared for raid healing), but they can heal up FAST in a pinch in the arenas, much easier than before. I can pummel a flash of light (provided the paladin dindn't just bubble to heal), but the next one will come before my cooldown is back up, and those flashes hit much harder than they used to, so keeping a pally low is tough business.

[Sanrin]

Good retribution paladins were always one of the two main fuck-alls of restoration druids. Stuns are bad enough, JoJ is the icing on the cake. 3.0 just made the gap unbearable, and added 8 other classes to the "Ret destroys ___" phrase.

This. All of this has happened before...

People just forget.

[Shalis]

You know, I don't think ret damage is all that overpowering. Maybe it's because I'm a rogue, one of the few classes that can stand toe-to-toe with an equally-geared retribution paladin. But the extra burst damage came along with several important changes, and that is what makes them so difficult to deal with.

Avenging Wrath no longer causing Forbearance is huge. Couple that with the fact that it now ignores 50% of armor and--I believe--resilience's critical strike damage reduction.

Critical strike rating counting for both attacks and spells, plus Blessing of Light being folded into Holy Light and Flash of Light makes for some massive healing potential. Divine Shield paired with Judgement of Justice makes for two instant-cast attacks with just enough time to heal, likely to full health.

Hammer of Wrath. Instant cast, useable at any point under 35% health. Six second cooldown. Holy damage. Scales with attack power. For retribution, 50% increased critical strike chance. Do I really need to explain this one?

Yes, it's quite true that their burst damage is high. But not overly so. Arcane and frost mages are enjoying a massive burst damage capacity. Subt dagger rogues are seeing strings of crits we haven't seen since 60. This is precisely what happened with 2.0 at 60, when mutilate rogues could take down players before they could dismount. Personally, I hope retadins don't get nerfed, because they're going to need everything they have to keep up at 80.

However, retadins. . .shut the hell up. Stop telling people that you're still on par with other classes, that we can still kite you without a problem. Don't tell anyone that this is justified because restoration druids have been overpowered for so long. Stop implying that you're not overpowered at all, and people simply aren't used to fighting you. It's not wrong to enjoy the next few weeks of play, not at all. You guys deserve some fun, especially those of you who've been putting up with so much from blizzard and fellow PvPers alike since day one. But don't lie to yourselves. How many of you obtained your s4 shoulders within a week after months of sitting pretty at 1530?

[Sanrin]

Again Shalis, give it some time. Right now everything is unbalanced because you have talents and skills meant for an expansion not yet implemented. Endgame gear is still a little off beat as well, everyones stats just got tossed around and the WNBA is getting higher viewship ratings. The world might be turning upside down, but I dont think that nows the time to be worried about it. Every other class in this game has been given amazing skills and new abilities to play with, everyones just making a big deal over paladins because their dps has been (for no particular reason) the -inside joke- of WoW for years now. Its one of the reasons I absolutely loved playing the class, no one likes losing to it...it just kinda feels stupid.

Couple that with the fact that Blizzard has openly stated that Paladin is the easiest class in the game to play and was meant to be a guiding point for every other player to learn the swing of things, its easy to see why paladin players are their core are tired of a lot of comments regarding their class. This (just like the release of BC) is just a nice chance for them to say LOL at every single player whos ever made fun of their shitty recolored lightforge armor, or whos questioned the justification of them rolling on a Cats edge. Just like how when we got Crusader Strike for the first time. Maybe its hard to remember since now around 80&#37; of all paladins seem to be blood elves...but back when only the alliance had em and this patch hit it was hysterical. Damage was off the charts with the itemization tweaks, moves weren't scaling right, and the beta was still in full swing as they made their fine tunings.

I wouldnt worry about it. Even when WoTLK is released there will be fixes to the class, and no doubt every other class as well. No biggie.

[Kaliera]

I wouldnt worry about it. Even when WoTLK is released there will be fixes to the class, and no doubt every other class as well. No biggie.

After all is said and done, this.

I think what gets most people riled up though is the fact that these patches are more or less a colorful way of getting blizzard to beta test their stuff and pay them at the same time. As far as PvP is concerned, if you aren't a(n) frost/arcane mage, ret paladin, or moonkin druid, you might as well sit on the corner until things get balanced out. For damn near every other class, all they can really do is flail around while the more broken class/specs enjoy the imbalance.

It'll definitely get fixed in Wrath, and I'm sure once everything is tweaked, things might even be balanced at 80. The biggest issue is that there are still at least 3 weeks until the level cap that content is "balanced" around even becomes available. When balance is centered around inaccessible content, that tends to put a little spite in most people who actively pay to play said imbalanced game, and understandably so.

I really wish Blizzard would either implement temporary balance changes to adjust around level cap content with these patches, or just remove them all-together. It would go a long way to stop all the forum flooding that's currently going on.

[Yatokth]

After all is said and done, this.

I think what gets most people riled up though is the fact that these patches are more or less a colorful way of getting blizzard to beta test their stuff and pay them at the same time. As far as PvP is concerned, if you aren't a(n) frost/arcane mage, ret paladin, or moonkin druid, you might as well sit on the corner until things get balanced out. For damn near every other class, all they can really do is flail around while the more broken class/specs enjoy the imbalance.

It'll definitely get fixed in Wrath, and I'm sure once everything is tweaked, things might even be balanced at 80. The biggest issue is that there are still at least 3 weeks until the level cap that content is "balanced" around even becomes available. When balance is centered around inaccessible content, that tends to put a little spite in most people who actively pay to play said imbalanced game, and understandably so.

I really wish Blizzard would either implement temporary balance changes to adjust around level cap content with these patches, or just remove them all-together. It would go a long way to stop all the forum flooding that's currently going on.

I really do not feel that way -

Warriors, when used properly (yes we require SKILL now, imagine that?) are absolute wrecking balls now. I find myself nearly beating retadins (I curb stomp bad ones, good ones i get close) and holding my own against almost every class (Demonology Warlocks and Mages give me the most troubles, but it's fun to fight uphill battles sometimes) and most of all - it's FUN.

I love this patch - Things will be more balanced at 80 for sure, there won't be some of the glaring weaknesses that some classes have (hai shaman with no CC) against certain others - or at least they'll be less pronounced.

[Sanrin]

This would all be fixed if they just...didn't implement these talent points earlier and worked further on refining them in the beta. Its an open beta after all, only the people that care to help things change and not just say 'OH GOD THIS IS UNFAIR' are going to be playing. Or at least, mostly. if they just kicked out a bit of endgame content and pushed the testing there these issues would be solved.

But again, that would boil down to them having an actual team test endgame content...which we all know they dont do. All they'd need is two groups of 25 paid a very horrible amount of money to sit around and push boss encounters...as opposed to begging endgame guilds to test things for them last minute. Ah well.

[Kaliera]

Warriors, when used properly (yes we require SKILL now, imagine that?)

Fury and Arms warriors gained like, one ability each with the talents. Bladestorm is countered entirely by moving slightly to the right, and Heroic Fury simply requires one to fight said warrior as if it were a shadowstep rogue ('cept much, much squishier).

The bigger issue with warriors is that most classes got some form of defensive toys, meanwhile non-prot warriors didn't. I now get absolutely giddy when I see a warrior in the arena, as it just means one of the other team's members is going to get melted in seconds. Don't get me wrong, warriors are still "good", but when put on the same pedestal as mages, paladins, and balance druids, it's like sticking a firefly next to a stage light and comparing their luminescence.



Edit: For clarification, I'm basing these statements off arena play rather than BG play. Charging into a swarm of baddies and hitting Bladestorm is amazingly fun, I can't deny that.

[Yatokth]

Fury and Arms warriors gained like, one ability each with the talents. Bladestorm is countered entirely by moving slightly to the right, and Heroic Fury simply requires one to fight said warrior as if it were a shadowstep rogue ('cept much, much squishier).

The bigger issue with warriors is that most classes got some form of defensive toys, meanwhile non-prot warriors didn't. I now get absolutely giddy when I see a warrior in the arena, as it just means one of the other team's members is going to get melted in seconds. Don't get me wrong, warriors are still "good", but when put on the same pedestal as mages, paladins, and balance druids, it's like sticking a firefly next to a stage light and comparing their luminescence.



Edit: For clarification, I'm basing these statements off arena play rather than BG play. Charging into a swarm of baddies and hitting Bladestorm is amazingly fun, I can't deny that.

One new ability? Yes, from talents. Let's start there. Bladestorm requires a BRAIN to use - I know, novel concept, but stick with me. Here's some general guidelines for the layman to use bladestorm:

1. Snared and crawling towards your target? Oh, look, DON'T USE IT. It doesn't break snares yet. Don't be stupid.

2. You have a target you wanna use Bladestorm on? Whoa there, jimmy! Not quite ready yet. First you gotta find that button that you bound "hamstring" too, push that first. Generally helps.

3. "Help Yat! My target is running away from me while I bladestorm!" Really? Well, if you've followed steps 1 and 2 (I've done it by only applying one of these steps before, but usually both is best) - MOVE WITH THEM. Combat movement = essential.

4. "Yat, I'm in arena, how do I use bladestorm!" Well hopefully you can wait for your partner to stun your target, or if that's impossible, follow the previous steps - hopefully with the other target(s) CC'd.

Follow these four simple rules and you'll be well on your way to melting faces with Bladestorm against people who ARE paying attention to you!

After that, let's get into what ELSE warriors got:

1. Arms. More damage. Sudden Death is amazing. Hot burst. When the next changes go through, we'll also have some decent unmitigated bleed damage.

2. 30 minute cooldowns into 5 minute cooldowns. This is HUGE. Warriors have always needed more CDs/tools that they could use reliably, Intimidating Shout was basically our only one. Now we have a melee bubble/blender, another S+B defensive ability (will be VERY awesome when enraged regen hits) and a way to MAKE bladestorm crit for the first three shots (Admitedly, Reck is pretty useless otherwise.)

You have new abilities, and if you're specced arms, LOTS of options - between Executes, Overpowers, and if you're smart and have the hamstring glyph, a very high chance to hamstring root people and slam the shit out of them.

I'll admit it - I haven't done much arena.

Until the lag (big hitter here, the matches i've lost in 2s we would have won most assuredly had there been no bloody lag) goes away and the 3 promised ret changes go through, there's no point to it.

When THOSE go through, I'll get back to you. I'm pretty sure we'll be doing just fine. ;)

[Chikt]

I also have to disagree with the sentiment that PvPing as any class besides those listed is pointless. I have NEVER had so much fun PvPing on my shaman than before this patch. That could be partly because I was Resto for the longest time, but to quite an extent I put it down to the fact that the game IS just that more fun to play, and if this is the way a Wrath PATCH plays, I can only start to imagine how the EXPANSION is going to be. My god.

WoW is headed in the direction of far better balance. At level 80 with all our abilities I fully expect that the game will just feel that much more balanced than it does now. And then, even now, it's not like this is really any different - tables have turned, resto druids have been exchanged for ret paladins, so on and so fourth.

[Kaliera]

One new ability? Yes, from talents. Let's start there. Bladestorm requires a BRAIN to use - I know, novel concept, but stick with me. Here's some general guidelines for the layman to use bladestorm:

1. Snared and crawling towards your target? Oh, look, DON'T USE IT. It doesn't break snares yet. Don't be stupid.

2. You have a target you wanna use Bladestorm on? Whoa there, jimmy! Not quite ready yet. First you gotta find that button that you bound "hamstring" too, push that first. Generally helps.

3. "Help Yat! My target is running away from me while I bladestorm!" Really? Well, if you've followed steps 1 and 2 (I've done it by only applying one of these steps before, but usually both is best) - MOVE WITH THEM. Combat movement = essential.

4. "Yat, I'm in arena, how do I use bladestorm!" Well hopefully you can wait for your partner to stun your target, or if that's impossible, follow the previous steps - hopefully with the other target(s) CC'd.

Follow these four simple rules and you'll be well on your way to melting faces with Bladestorm against people who ARE paying attention to you!

...

When THOSE go through, I'll get back to you. I'm pretty sure we'll be doing just fine. ;)

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&n=Raina

For the sake of my sanity, I'm going to assume the condescending tone that insinuates the reader has no clue about warriors isn't directed at me, but instead a general audience.

To put my opinions on warriors simply outside of what I've already stated:

1) Warriors are reliant on healers to perform at their peak.
2) Healers are lasting about 3 seconds with the DPS perks other classes got.

If people are having issues killing warriors without healers, said people are doing it wrong. One of the few exceptions to this would be shamans who are in a far tighter situation as far as PvP is concerned, and the rogues who now eat overpowers like it's some kind of crack-laced breakfast cereal.

[Yatokth]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&n=Raina

For the sake of my sanity, I'm going to assume the condescending tone that insinuates the reader has no clue about warriors isn't directed at me, but instead a general audience.

To put my opinions on warriors simply outside of what I've already stated:

1) Warriors are reliant on healers to perform at their peak.
2) Healers are lasting about 3 seconds with the DPS perks other classes got.

If people are having issues killing warriors without healers, said people are doing it wrong. One of the few exceptions to this would be shamans who are in a far tighter situation as far as PvP is concerned, and the rogues who now eat overpowers like it's some kind of crack-laced breakfast cereal.

Let me get this out of the way - Disclaimer: Any condescending or perhaps malicious tone taken by forum avatars known as Yatokth stems from being a sarcastic dick, he has nothing against you. Don't take it personally. :P

I also find myself annoyed at all the Warrior QQ going on lately (not specifically from any person) because we're sitting quite pretty, especially compared to some other classes. (shamans?) Sorry if I insulted your skill - I've never even fought you.

To counter your points: (Keep in mind, we are now discussing arena, which I agree is grossly imbalanced at the moment.)

1 - Granted, we're still not amazingly solo viable, but we're way better off than we used to be.

2 - Retadins. This is the source of I'd say around 90&#37; of your problems. Retadins, and lag. When Retadin burst is nerfed, this won't be as much of a problem, and it will ALSO be not as much of a problem at 80, as Sanrin said, and yourself agreed.

lol @ rogues comment.

And yeah, I'm not saying Warriors are amazingly omg-crazy atm, once the lag and nerfs go through, I don't expect to dominate, I expect to be viable, and I really haven't seen anything to prove contrary. At least, not yet. I could be totally wrong. -shrug-

Also, will be better at 80.

[Chikt]

I also find myself annoyed at all the Warrior QQ going on lately (not specifically from any person) because we're sitting quite pretty, especially compared to some other classes. (shamans?)

Let me get this out there:

I fully expect Thunderstorm to be nerfed.

We can do insane DPS so long as we're not being touched or have a healer (Hello AV).

1v1 we ARE lacking, but I don't play this game to duel.

But there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the shaman class. Elemental is DAMN strong (5% bonus spell crit that procs off your critical strikes? I can keep that up on me 100% of the time) and the only reason that Resto is weak is because all the DPS classes are doing a LOT more damage than it is capable of healing.

Enhancement is doing even better with the Spirit Wolves and I expect it to improve even further in Wrath.

There is nothing spectacularly wrong with Shaman, and it's an amazingly fun class to play in this patch.

[Yatokth]

Let me get this out there:

I fully expect Thunderstorm to be nerfed.

We can do insane DPS so long as we're not being touched or have a healer (Hello AV).

1v1 we ARE lacking, but I don't play this game to duel.

But there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the shaman class. Elemental is DAMN strong (5&#37; bonus spell crit that procs off your critical strikes? I can keep that up on me 100% of the time) and the only reason that Resto is weak is because all the DPS classes are doing a LOT more damage than it is capable of healing.

Enhancement is doing even better with the Spirit Wolves and I expect it to improve even further in Wrath.

There is nothing spectacularly wrong with Shaman, and it's an amazingly fun class to play in this patch.

You lack neccessary tools to be as powerful in arena at the moment as other classes. (FUCKING HEX WILL BE AWESOME)

BUT AS WE ALREADY NOTED - LOLOLOL ARENAS R BALANCED AMIRITE?

But otherwise yeah, you're powerful. Powerful as hell.

[Keraph]

I'm siding with Yat in the sense that as an arms warrior, I'm very happy with where our class is right now. I can easily say that if we got NERFED in the near future, I wouldn't think it a bad thing. A lot of warriors ARE complaining because we're no longer a two-button class, but thats' really just separating the skilled from the not so skilled. Bladestorm is rediculous damage, and generally if people are easily avoiding it, there's something that you can be doing. The obscene burst from Taste for Blood's overpower procs, and of course Sudden Death, has me dropping targets in arenas in rediculous speeds. Rend is nice right now, obscene post-incoming patch. I ran numbers on the beta, and in PvP blues and offset epics, with a blue weapon, talented as an arms warrior should be, it's ticking over 800 damage per tick, over 5k total (with glyph for extra tick). That's a 10 rage move right there.

We definately need healers to be at peak in certain situations, but if I'm not at peak now, then good god I don't want to see where I am with a healer. I'm certainly not saying I win every fight I get into without a scratch, but really, I'm not getting beaten back at every possible angle, either.

[Kaliera]

And yeah, I'm not saying Warriors are amazingly omg-crazy atm, once the lag and nerfs go through, I don't expect to dominate, I expect to be viable, and I really haven't seen anything to prove contrary. At least, not yet. I could be totally wrong. -shrug-


I'm pretty sure we're on the same page then. At the moment, there's a few different levels that classes are sitting on. There's "needs help", there's "decent", there's "good", there's "godlike", and there's "Retribution Paladins". At the moment, I'd consider warriors to be in the "good" section, and I'd really love it if -all- classes made it there.

Sadly, this won't happen before Wrath hits, but since we're discussing the current state of WoW combat, I really wish it would. :/

[Keraph]

Absolutely a good point. I don't think we're horrendously overpowered (Though it is said that if you're generally happy with where you are classwise, nerf inc XD ), But I think that we're in a pretty solid position. Sudden Death is being toned down because right now it's a bit rediculous, but that's cool. There are definately classes that need a lot of work right now, and I don't think warriors are really one of them.

Also, we totally stopped talking about ret paladins like, a page and a half ago XD

[Sanrin]

Ret paladins rule. Keraph sucks.

[NotMaithanet]

Ret paladins rule. Keraph sucks.

This.

[Agnarr]

Rend is nice right now, obscene post-incoming patch. I ran numbers on the beta, and in PvP blues and offset epics, with a blue weapon, talented as an arms warrior should be, it's ticking over 800 damage per tick, over 5k total (with glyph for extra tick). That's a 10 rage move right there.

Is Rend getting buffed? I've always viewed it as more of a novelty (or something to try and counter Vanish), and honestly haven't looked at it seriously even after this last big patch. Is it better now, or will it be getting better soon?

[Averilyna]

2) Healers are lasting about 3 seconds with the DPS perks other classes got.

2 - Retadins. This is the source of I'd say around 90% of your problems. Retadins, and lag. When Retadin burst is nerfed, this won't be as much of a problem, and it will ALSO be not as much of a problem at 80, as Sanrin said, and yourself agreed.

As a Disc Priest who hasn't spent a lot of time in arenas (i.e. - take this with a grain of salt): Yat is right, Ret Pallys are currently the only class that's really screwing me over right now. Boomkins, yeah, they put out a ton of dmg, but I can heal through them, while healing someone else, if I need to (note the lack of anti-caster cc). 1v1 might be a problem, as they might be able to get me oom before I can actually kill them, but I haven't gotten into a 1v1 vs Boomkin yet, so I'm not sure.

Once I got into the swing of things, I've gone back to basically not dieing unless I get stunlocked or I go oom. The only times I really get screwed are when it's a combination of Ret Pally + other dps, usually a mage or boomkin. That's when I die in 4-5 seconds, mostly because I can't do anything about HoJ + CS + w/ever. That, however, has always been the case, only it was more Rogue + Mage + any dps.

Final note: WoW PvP hasn't been this much fun in a while for me. I have some awesome new abilities, the Spellpower changes gave me some halfway decent dps, and my heals are still decent. (Plus Penance is just awesome. RAINBOW POWER!!!)

[Naheal]

I've stated this before to friends and guildies and I'll state it now:

Pre-patch, a ret pally who had a smart and experienced player behind them were a pain to handle. Then, they buffed us.

Now, you can tell the difference between a pre- and post-patch ret pally. A pre-patch ret pally can and will eat your face. A post-patch ret pally is like a little kid with a nuke who doesn't know how to aim it. Yes, they're dangerous, but they're just as dangerous to themselves as they are to the people around them.

What floors me is how my current spec works in BGs (I'm 8/0/53 atm). I'm able to put out as much for healing as I was as a holy pally pre-patch and I'm able to put out a good amount of damage on top of that. It's that option that puts us over the top right now. In fact, last night, I was topping damage and healing meters in BGs. Does that mean we didn't have a dedicated healer? Probably. But, I also feel that we need a slight nerf in some manor or another. That should not be happening, I don't care what class you are.

[Muatah]

I see people talking about "Topping meters in BGs" over and over again.

Topping meters of any kind(Damage/Healing/HKs) in a Battleground is statistically worthless. There are entirely too many variables inherent in them to lend any real credence to what they show.

Sadly, it is all people pay attention to, and "ZOMG A RET PALLY HIT ME FOR 8K IN LIKE 2 SECONDS!!!!!!!!111!!!!11" is what they remember............nevermind the buffs the Paladin may have had, the debuffs they may have had, etc, etc...aud nauseum.

[Resinous]

Good Ret pallies are rare. I hope all this talk makes more good ret pallies emerge. Ret pally vs frost mage is one of the most technical fights and I would love too see more of it. I can't wait to fight Kained at the tournament of champions. He's one of those rare good ret pallies.

[Yatokth]

I'm pretty sure we're on the same page then. At the moment, there's a few different levels that classes are sitting on. There's "needs help", there's "decent", there's "good", there's "godlike", and there's "Retribution Paladins". At the moment, I'd consider warriors to be in the "good" section, and I'd really love it if -all- classes made it there.

Sadly, this won't happen before Wrath hits, but since we're discussing the current state of WoW combat, I really wish it would. :/

This is a very good display I think.

Though I'd go even further than just classes and say that every class/SPEC combo has one of these ratings.

For example, I don't think resto druids are that well off atm, but balance is pretty good. (amirite? I'm really not a druid expert)

I think all classes will be settling down around there at 80 (obviously there will be imbalanced and powerful comps - impossible to avoid, but it'll be better than TBC and leaps and bounds better than it is now - in relation to arena.)

And as for Retadins in BGs - yeah BGs =/= indicative of skill really, but you cannot deny that retadins are absolutely raping in arenas right now, where it counts.

EDIT:


Is Rend getting buffed? I've always viewed it as more of a novelty (or something to try and counter Vanish), and honestly haven't looked at it seriously even after this last big patch. Is it better now, or will it be getting better soon?

Rend is meh right now -

But next patch it's being buffed massively - it's base damage is slightly going down, and imp rend is going down, but it's scaling factors with Weapon Damage and AP are going up AMAZINGLY high.

It does powerful damage for 10 rage - read Keraph's numbers again - that was with all the multilpliers on it, and it's at 80. But with a blue weapon.

Rend is worth the rage, not only for Taste for Blood, but for real damage now.

[Akuje]

Just saw this on Blizzard..

Patch Notes for 3.0.4

Paladin

- Class will now be removed. Any player with a Paladin that is at level 70 or above will now have ti replaced with a Priest that can only spec into Holy.

[Yatokth]

Just saw this on Blizzard..

Patch Notes for 3.0.4

Paladin

- Class will now be removed. Any player with a Paladin that is at level 70 or above will now have ti replaced with a Priest that can only spec into Holy.

SWEET

[Keraph]

Ret paladins rule. Keraph sucks.

God


This.

Damnit


Is Rend getting buffed? I've always viewed it as more of a novelty (or something to try and counter Vanish), and honestly haven't looked at it seriously even after this last big patch. Is it better now, or will it be getting better soon?

You're prot, correct? So Rend isn't as useful to you. It's now an opener for Arms, because we have a chance every tick of rend to be able to Overpower our target, regardless of whether or not they dodged us. This is currently also working to Sudden Death's favor. Overpower is an almost guaranteed crit, and Sudden Death is currently a 30&#37; chance on CRIT to allow us to execute, regardless of the target's current health. (This is being brought down to a 9% chance, but on any melee attack, not just crits).

Next patch, rend's base damage is being reduced, and imp rend is going from 50% to 20%, but you'll be looking and old-imp rend damage at -least- WITHOUT imp rend post-patch, an add the extra 20% to THAT. The mechanics are changing like so: Currently, rend's bonus damage is 15% of our average weapon damage and 2.14% of our attack power. It is being buffed to 50%(!!!) of our average damage plus 7.14% of our AP. That's significant. Armed to the Teeth benefits rend with the AP boost, Two-hand weapon spec benefits it with extra damage (tested and confirmed), Trauma benefits the HELL out of it with a 30% boost to all bleeds. You add up all of these multipliers and you're looking at SIGNIFICANT bleed ticks for a mere 10 rage cost. As I said before, at 80, on a fresh target (The new wrath-only ranks of Rend do 35% more damage to targets about 75% health), ticking at over 800 damage, total damage is 5016 over 18 seconds. With an epic weapon (weapon is the biggest contributing factor) this goes even higher. Even with the huge increases in player health, that's a good 1/4th of the beta warrior's health (in PvP blues and offset epics). Significant just by itself, nevermind it's synergies.

[Muatah]

It's now an opener for Arms, because we have a chance every tick of rend to be able to Overpower our target, regardless of whether or not they dodged us. This is currently also working to Sudden Death's favor. Overpower is an almost guaranteed crit, and Sudden Death is currently a 30% chance on CRIT to allow us to execute, regardless of the target's current health. (This is being brought down to a 9% chance, but on any melee attack, not just crits).

Next patch, rend's base damage is being reduced, and imp rend is going from 50% to 20%, but you'll be looking and old-imp rend damage at -least- WITHOUT imp rend post-patch, an add the extra 20% to THAT. The mechanics are changing like so: Currently, rend's bonus damage is 15% of our average weapon damage and 2.14% of our attack power. It is being buffed to 50%(!!!) of our average damage plus 7.14% of our AP. That's significant. Armed to the Teeth benefits rend with the AP boost, Two-hand weapon spec benefits it with extra damage (tested and confirmed), Trauma benefits the HELL out of it with a 30% boost to all bleeds. You add up all of these multipliers and you're looking at SIGNIFICANT bleed ticks for a mere 10 rage cost. As I said before, at 80, on a fresh target (The new wrath-only ranks of Rend do 35% more damage to targets about 75% health), ticking at over 800 damage, total damage is 5016 over 18 seconds. With an epic weapon (weapon is the biggest contributing factor) this goes even higher. Even with the huge increases in player health, that's a good 1/4th of the beta warrior's health (in PvP blues and offset epics). Significant just by itself, nevermind it's synergies.

Seems like pretty ludicrous damage to me for a debuff that "cannot be dispeled, cleansed, cured or otherwise removed until the debuff expires."

Expect a rash of "I kill the Warrior and then can't do anything but watch myself die 4 seconds later" whiners (aka..the Warlock Syndrome), and the damage to be reduced.

[Yatokth]

Seems like pretty ludicrous damage to me for a debuff that "cannot be dispeled, cleansed, cured or otherwise removed until the debuff expires."

Expect a rash of "I kill the Warrior and then can't do anything but watch myself die 4 seconds later" whiners (aka..the Warlock Syndrome), and the damage to be reduced.

It's a DoT.

Yes it does powerful damage (finally, it was useless until now) but it's not comparable to other castable DoTs - go look at some total damage numbers for warlock/spreist DoTs. Bet you they're higher. By a good bit too.

Rend isn't getting nerfed. (the entire concept of rend being NERFED makes me lol)

In fact, it's mostly been buffed to make up for the small amount of damage that sudden death used to contribute in PvE.

Since it does damage now, it's an indirect PvP buff! :D

[Resinous]

It's a DoT.

Yes it does powerful damage (finally, it was useless until now) but it's not comparable to other castable DoTs - go look at some total damage numbers for warlock/spreist DoTs. Bet you they're higher. By a good bit too.

Rend isn't getting nerfed. (the entire concept of rend being NERFED makes me lol)

In fact, it's mostly been buffed to make up for the small amount of damage that sudden death used to contribute in PvE.

Since it does damage now, it's an indirect PvP buff! :D

/cheer. That last exclamation point you had there reminded me of Lewis from Ghostbusters and required a /cheer Yat.

[Muatah]

Warlock/Shadow Priest DoTs can be dispelled(except for one that I can think of, and its damage is meh). Bleed effects cannot be removed.

Big difference.

[Yatokth]

Warlock/Shadow Priest DoTs can be dispelled(except for one that I can think of, and its damage is meh). Bleed effects cannot be removed.

Big difference.

Pretty sure Feral bleed effects are higher than rend, and I don't see those getting nerfed.

[Keraph]

Fight fight! But really, they -are- just now buffing rend, so obviously the DO want it to be stronger than it currently is. As a note, the damage I listed requires a handy amount of variables. A)Target must be above 75&#37;. B)Target must hav Trauma applied. Now, Trauma only applies on my crits, and while I certainly don't crit for 25% of a target's health, once I start doing damage it sorta rolls, so getting A&B together will take at least a moderate amount of "pay attention". This damage was also with battle shout up, and Enrage procced (Since Deep Wounds, Trauma, and Enrage ALL proc 100% off of my crits), so we're looking at perfect storm damage, not every application damage.

Could it be a bit too powerful? Sure, it might get knocked down a bit, if Blizzard decides that the buff went a little to far.

[Yatokth]

Fight fight! But really, they -are- just now buffing rend, so obviously the DO want it to be stronger than it currently is. As a note, the damage I listed requires a handy amount of variables. A)Target must be above 75%. B)Target must hav Trauma applied. Now, Trauma only applies on my crits, and while I certainly don't crit for 25% of a target's health, once I start doing damage it sorta rolls, so getting A&B together will take at least a moderate amount of "pay attention". This damage was also with battle shout up, and Enrage procced (Since Deep Wounds, Trauma, and Enrage ALL proc 100% off of my crits), so we're looking at perfect storm damage, not every application damage.

Could it be a bit too powerful? Sure, it might get knocked down a bit, if Blizzard decides that the buff went a little to far.

I don't see it happening, but if it does then whatever - I'm just glad they're buffing it to usable levels.

[Muatah]

Retribution

Judgement of Command Holy damage reduced from 56&#37; to 45%.
Blessing of Might (Rank 8 ) and Greater Blessing of Might (Rank 3) now increase AP by 306. (Up from 305)
Seal of Corruption now deals [ 15% of AP + 8.8% of Spell Power ] additional holy damage over 15 seconds. (Down from [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ])
Seal of Corruption now deals [ 14% of AP + 22% of Spell Power + 1 ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 17.5% of AP + 28% of Spell Power + 1 ])
Seal of the Martyr now make all your melee attacks deal [ 22% of mw ] to [ 22% of MW ]. (Down from [ 28% of mw ] to [ 28% of MW ])
Seal of the Martyr now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of MW ] Holy Damage when unleashed. (Old - [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of MW ] Holy damage)
Seal of Blood now make all your melee attacks deal [ 22% of mw ] to [ 22% of MW ]. (Down from [ 28% of mw ] to [ 28% of MW ])
Seal of Blood now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of MW ] Holy Damage when unleashed. (Old - [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of MW ] Holy damage)
Seal of Vengeance now deals [ 15% of AP + 8.8% of Spell Power ] additional Holy damage over 15 sec. (Down from [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ])
Seal of Vengeance now deals [ 14% of AP + 22% of Spell Power + 1 ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 17.5% of AP + 28% of Spell Power + 1 ])
Judgement of Wisdom now restores 1% of the attacker's maximum mana. (Down from 2%)
Judgement of Light now has a chance to heal the attacker for [ 10% of AP + 10% of Spell Power ]. (Down from [ 18% of AP + 18% of Spell Power ])

Talents
Retribution

Divine Storm doesn't deal Holy damage anymore. Now heals up to 3 party or raid members for 25% of the damage caused. (Up from 20%)
Righteous Vengeance changed to - When your Judgement and Divine Storm spells deal a critical strike, your target will take 8/16/24/32/40% additional damage over 8 sec.
The Art of War now increases the damage of Judgement, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm by 5/10%. (Old - Increased critical strike damage only, by 10/20%)
Judgement of the Wise now grants the paladin 15% of his base mana. (Down from 33%)
Seal of Command now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 24% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 24% of MW ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 30% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 30% of MW ])

Hahahahahaha!

Oh yeah, take the hammer to almost every single damage ability across the board.

..... AND take the nerfbat to our Raid utiliy.

...but wait, they will fix it if it turns out to be too much, right? RIGHT?????

And Hey! we got 1 more AP on our BoM so it won't get overwritten by Warriors anymore!

What a freaking joke.

[Taknar]

Retribution

<<Snipped patch notes>>

Hahahahahaha!

Oh yeah, take the hammer to almost every single damage ability across the board.

..... AND take the nerfbat to our Raid utiliy.

...but wait, they will fix it if it turns out to be too much, right? RIGHT?????

And Hey! we got 1 more AP on our BoM so it won't get overwritten by Warriors anymore!

What a freaking joke.

Are you in the beta? Are you privy to exactly what these changes entail, and what effect they have? Given by your reaction every time I've seen you post about paladins I'd say you don't and if you do it has been wasted in my opinion.

First, if you are going to attempt to complain in a level headed fashion, post all the changes not just the retribution ones. All the seals were altered, not just the retribution ones.

Second, see where the majority of the changes were (seal and judgment scaling) and ask yourself why this might have been changed. If I had to take a shot at it, I'd say because they realized that with the talent to convert AP into spell power they realized that the damage scaling from these abilities were too high because of double dipping. At level 80, around middle raid tier, they would be far above everyone else because each point of AP is worth that much more to a Paladin than to his melee counterparts.

Third, recall that these are BETA patch notes. These are not PTR patch notes. The main difference between the two is that the PTR is only for testing stability and game breaking bugs. BETA is for testing new changes to see if that's where they want them to be, and in an iterative development process you don't get it right the first time. Think of the game where you have to guess a number between 1 and 1000. You generally start in the middle, and make changes in your guesses that start off as large and then get smaller and smaller as you get closer to where you want to be. They have displayed this many times in the BETA, where they nerfed something hard and then raised it a little, and then nerfed it a little, etc. They continue the process until they get it to a point where they feel good about it.

What I'm basically trying to say is that these changes seem heavy handed to you but you are over reacting to information displayed to you from a test environment. And it's reactions like this that make game developers in general not want to share this information.

[Kaliera]

What I'm basically trying to say is that these changes seem heavy handed to you but you are over reacting to information displayed to you from a test environment.


This.

Death Knights received the same treatment when they were running around 2-shotting mobs and players alike. The typical adjustment process that blizzard has been using to balance the beta has entailed substantial nerfs, tests following them, and subsequent tweaks to bring the class back up to a balanced state.

[Sanrin]

All of this has happened before.

[NotMaithanet]

Are you in the beta? Are you privy to exactly what these changes entail, and what effect they have? Given by your reaction every time I've seen you post about paladins I'd say you don't and if you do it has been wasted in my opinion.

First, if you are going to attempt to complain in a level headed fashion, post all the changes not just the retribution ones. All the seals were altered, not just the retribution ones.

Second, see where the majority of the changes were (seal and judgment scaling) and ask yourself why this might have been changed. If I had to take a shot at it, I'd say because they realized that with the talent to convert AP into spell power they realized that the damage scaling from these abilities were too high because of double dipping. At level 80, around middle raid tier, they would be far above everyone else because each point of AP is worth that much more to a Paladin than to his melee counterparts.

Third, recall that these are BETA patch notes. These are not PTR patch notes. The main difference between the two is that the PTR is only for testing stability and game breaking bugs. BETA is for testing new changes to see if that's where they want them to be, and in an iterative development process you don't get it right the first time. Think of the game where you have to guess a number between 1 and 1000. You generally start in the middle, and make changes in your guesses that start off as large and then get smaller and smaller as you get closer to where you want to be. They have displayed this many times in the BETA, where they nerfed something hard and then raised it a little, and then nerfed it a little, etc. They continue the process until they get it to a point where they feel good about it.

What I'm basically trying to say is that these changes seem heavy handed to you but you are over reacting to information displayed to you from a test environment. And it's reactions like this that make game developers in general not want to share this information.

This is all history repeating itself and he has a right to be upset. As Sanrin's mentioned before Ret Paladins came out of the TBC Gate burning and ended up in utter uselessness. Tweaking on a Beta means very little when you dont have ten million players finding ways to work with it.

So I looked at the Paladin forums, and on the front page is nothing from anyone from Blizzard. No explanation, no suggestion of where we're supposed to be headed, why there's an 11% decease in SoCom or a 18% reduction in JotW mana gain, just people against the nerfs and everyone else telling us to stop QQing.

Frankly? If these nerfs go through there had better be some sort of Silver Lining because all I see is a 51 pt talent that is essentially Whirlwind (With terrible healing dont even TRY and tell me thats worthwhile) and a bunch of other things that made me die inside a little.

On the flip side the JoL and JoW damage and such? Yeah, okay, I can see that. Even then JoL is 8%. Meanwhile everyone else went unchanged or got a buff (This is with the exception of Windfury to Ranged). So before you leap down a Paladins throat with "Cry less" try to bear in mind Blizzards history with Ret Paladins.

However, I produce for you evidence from the Beta. This thread is about the new Judgements of the Wise. (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html;jsessionid=A7EB26C706B9A9508044E74D2F2 AFFB0.app23_03?topicId=11829505313&sid=1) It's worth noting that down the page the person comments on the promise by Ghostcrawler that there would be no more "lolret".

Now, add in the fact that come 80 little to none of our gear will have Int on it (Int equals BIG BLUE RAGE BAR) how quickly do you think a Ret Pally will go OOM. This actually affects Prot too, because the Tier gear is all Str / Stam. Prot right now I have issues keeping my Mana up ANYWAY now adding in the concerns posted we're not the best threat gen and I might as well get some Holy gear and work out how the fuck Bacon of Light works because apparantly out class is slowly (On paper) going into the ground. There's no good reason Ret should suffer because of the fact Holy STILL sucks. Move JotW like they did SoL.

On the flip side, it's in the beta, we can hope these dont make it to the PTR. And it doesnt doesnt help that everyone else is rubbing their hands with glee over the nerfs. Salt in the wounds much?

[Yatokth]

JotW nerf makes no sense.

They should revert that. Stupid change imo.

All the others make sense to me - but why JotW? Wanna nerf shockadins? Move it.

EDIT: It seems an undocumented change that Hammer of Wrath is now only usable at 20&#37; health instead of 35%, however the tooltip does not reflect this so it may be a bug.

[Chikt]

But as Taknar said. People need to remember that this is NOT YET IN GAME. It's in the BETA. I don't care to count how many times that we've been told one thing about Shaman on one day only to have something completely new and different the next.

They're testing for balance and unless you're playing a level 80 in the beta right now, you can't really see or judge the changes hands on. When Wrath is released and Paladins suck, THEN I think you have more than every right to complain.

Admittedly though, I play a Shaman and got used to being shafted a long time ago. Being super powerful at ANY point in WoW is usually a death sentence for your class balance. Because the bigger they are the harder they fall, and Shaman really never got back up after their class patch back before the Burning Crusade.

I'd simply say wait and see what happens. They're trying to find a nice medium here, and I find it's better to go into these things expecting little. Because then when you only get a little (WOO THUNDERSTORM) you're extremely happy.

[NotMaithanet]

But as Taknar said. People need to remember that this is NOT YET IN GAME. It's in the BETA. I don't care to count how many times that we've been told one thing about Shaman on one day only to have something completely new and different the next.

They're testing for balance and unless you're playing a level 80 in the beta right now, you can't really see or judge the changes hands on. When Wrath is released and Paladins suck, THEN I think you have more than every right to complain.

Admittedly though, I play a Shaman and got used to being shafted a long time ago. Being super powerful at ANY point in WoW is usually a death sentence for your class balance. Because the bigger they are the harder they fall, and Shaman really never got back up after their class patch back before the Burning Crusade.

I'd simply say wait and see what happens. They're trying to find a nice medium here, and I find it's better to go into these things expecting little. Because then when you only get a little (WOO THUNDERSTORM) you're extremely happy.

People complain so their voices can be heard. If Ret "Shuts up and takes it" we're essentially telling people that we think it's okay. Are we going to do that? No.

Also, if you can honestly tell me that all these nerfs are NOT based on live then I want some severe proof to this.

[Taknar]

I'd like to point out that I never said don't complain. Complain all you want. However there is a large difference between the complaining that Muatah did and the complaining that the OP of the post that Maithanet linked did. And it's not beta experience.

Second, the judgement of the wise nerf totally makes sense to me. Because I had seen ret paladins never run out of mana. Ever. As you lose int on your gear, your total mana approaches your base mana, which is what JotW returns and is what your abilities are based off of. In a 10 second interval, you have the following costs for sure: Divine Storm (12% base mana), Crusader Strike (8%), Judgment of Something (5%). That's only 25% base mana being spent. Even if Art of War procs and you toss in a Flash of Light (7%) you're only paying 32% base mana in that 10 seconds. But you get 33% base mana every 8. Ret paladins didn't have a resource system, they had a cooldown system. It wasn't the intention. You are supposed to care about keeping a full mana bar and take measures to ensure you don't go oom, just like hunters, mages, warlocks, shaman, etc.

Now, down to 15% is heavy handed yes but like we've all been saying beta always hits down hard before it buffs back up.

I'll also say that like it or not, that Divine Storm is helpful to healers. Each time they hit that button I save 450 mana because I'm that much less likely to need to cast CoH to pick everyone up. It's importance increases even more to a paladin healer who can't spend 1 gcd to top everyone up just in case.

[Kaliera]

People complain so their voices can be heard. If Ret "Shuts up and takes it" we're essentially telling people that we think it's okay. Are we going to do that? No.

Also, if you can honestly tell me that all these nerfs are NOT based on live then I want some severe proof to this.

If the complaining is done here though, the voice is being heard by a completely unhelpful crowd. I strongly support input on class balance and have tossed my fair share out on the official and the beta forums. Short of walking up and knocking on blizzard's door, posting constructive suggestions on the class forums is one of the best ways to get your ideas to blizzard's development team.

They DO take these suggestions to heart. The addition of feral run speed working indoors was a direct result of a player's suggestion and a developer's response to it. Granted, you'd need a beta account to post on those forums, but I know there are several people here who could forward the message along. If anyone has constructive methods of tweaking the class without making it broken, I'd be more than happy to make a post of my own on the Paladin class forums.

Edit: As far as evidence that this change wasn't based on live, technically, it was. There was a long-standing weapon bug where if one had talents for percent-based increase in two-handed damage, that bonus could be applied and reapplied over and over simply by re-equipping a weapon. Until just recently, that bug hadn't been fixed in a state that proper testing could be done. If they had implemented these changes sooner, they'd be based of Ret paladins with 200+&#37; damage while using two-handers, and I'm sure no one wants that.

[Yatokth]

Second, the judgement of the wise nerf totally makes sense to me. Because I had seen ret paladins never run out of mana. Ever. As you lose int on your gear, your total mana approaches your base mana, which is what JotW returns and is what your abilities are based off of. In a 10 second interval, you have the following costs for sure: Divine Storm (12% base mana), Crusader Strike (8%), Judgment of Something (5%). That's only 25% base mana being spent. Even if Art of War procs and you toss in a Flash of Light (7%) you're only paying 32% base mana in that 10 seconds. But you get 33% base mana every 8. Ret paladins didn't have a resource system, they had a cooldown system. It wasn't the intention. You are supposed to care about keeping a full mana bar and take measures to ensure you don't go oom, just like hunters, mages, warlocks, shaman, etc.

That's exactly the point. Retadins cannot have int on their gear is it gimps their damage - They simply cannot.

Mages, Hunters, Warlocks, and Shamans all have int on most of their gear.

Also, let's go over the ways those classes can get mana back:

Mages: Innate MP5, Mana Gems, Evocation

Hunters: Innate MP5, Aspect of the Viper, Viper Sting

Warlocks: Innate MP5, Life Tap, Mana Drain

Shamans: Innate MP5, Water Shield

Now, they may not all be alot, but let's look at the whole perspective. Mages stack int like there's no tomorrow. With mana gems and evocation, their mana regen is up to speed, and they have ALOT of it. If specced, Frost Mages and Fire Mages have reduced mana and ways to get it back. I believe Arcane has something like that too..

I rarely see a hunter out of mana ever, and Viper Sting = amazing.

Warlocks have no problems with mana. Life Tap > Drain Life is amazing, and Mana Drain is great.

Water Shield rocks. Period.

What do Ret Paladins have? Divine Plea. A slightly worse evocation, that also works off of total mana, which means shit all for ret paladins. They don't HAVE any sustainability UNLESS they can keep their mana up.

The whole point of JotW was to make Retadins sustainable in melee - All those other casters who use their mana and have lots of it and can regen it - excepting enh shamans, who have shamanistic rage and even still more int, hell a talent that converts int to AP - HIT FROM RANGE. Retadins are MELEE - they have to stay in range to deal their damage, and they absolutely SHOULD NOT run out of mana when simply using their basic attack rotation. They just shouldn't. When they start mega heals or anything PAST their basic attack rotation, their mana DOES go down - and it CAN be capitalized with mana burn if they are in this situation.

JoTW at 33% base mana gave Retadins what they needed to be a viable plate wearing melee class - sustainability. They have to be able to sustain their damage with their basic abilities indefinitly, because not only are they a melee class, but WITHOUT that kind of sustainability, they would be like they were before, going OOM in 2 minutes (reports of this on beta) and being absolutely useless as shit.

There is simply no reason for a retadin to run out of mana doing his basic attack rotations.

They nerfed JotW because of the shockadin spec, 33/0/38, which got Holy Shock, Infusion of Light, then dumped everything else into ret for the crit, infinite mana, Repentance, and Art of War. That spec is very powerful, especially on live, because it's mobile, ignores all armor with shock + powerful judgements, and can cast instant and/or very quick cast big heals.

Switch JotW with Swift Retribution and make it 33% again. Don't fuck over rets because of shockadins.

[Taknar]

That's exactly the point. Retadins cannot have int on their gear is it gimps their damage - They simply cannot.

...

What do Ret Paladins have? Divine Plea. A slightly worse evocation, that also works off of total mana, which means shit all for ret paladins. They don't HAVE any sustainability UNLESS they can keep their mana up.

... Retadins are MELEE - they have to stay in range to deal their damage, and they absolutely SHOULD NOT run out of mana when simply using their basic attack rotation. They just shouldn't. When they start mega heals or anything PAST their basic attack rotation, their mana DOES go down - and it CAN be capitalized with mana burn if they are in this situation.

JoTW at 33% base mana gave Retadins what they needed to be a viable plate wearing melee class - sustainability. They have to be able to sustain their damage with their basic abilities indefinitly, because not only are they a melee class, but WITHOUT that kind of sustainability, they would be like they were before, going OOM in 2 minutes (reports of this on beta) and being absolutely useless as shit.

There is simply no reason for a retadin to run out of mana doing his basic attack rotations.

They nerfed JotW because of the shockadin spec, 33/0/38, which got Holy Shock, Infusion of Light, then dumped everything else into ret for the crit, infinite mana, Repentance, and Art of War. That spec is very powerful, especially on live, because it's mobile, ignores all armor with shock + powerful judgements, and can cast instant and/or very quick cast big heals.

Switch JotW with Swift Retribution and make it 33% again. Don't fuck over rets because of shockadins.

Okay, I will concede that I didn't look at this from a PvP perspective and yes things like mana drain make ret paladins fall over and die. However on the PvE side of things, I seriously challenge the assertion that paladins should not have to conciously manage their mana. It's like saying that warriors and rogues should have an infinite rage/energy bar and not have to pace themselves. Pacing is their resource management shtick, managing mana should be the shtick for Paladins. If you look through some of the comments made by developers about TBC raiding one of their complaints was that mana management was removed from most classes entirely and they wanted to bring some of that back.

Saying Divine Plea is no good also makes no sense to me. It's an added buffer for your mana pool that can be used once a minute with no channeling or negative impact on you whatsoever. It's to make you last longer before going OOM. The use of it on that beta test let the paladin keep going for 3 minutes straight before going oom. I'd say that sounds about right for someone not using seal of wisdom and not getting mana back from heals. (Yeah, that's right. If you use seal of blood in PvE, a healer will heal you and you get more mana back.)

I could understand the complaint as well if paladins had no way to get back mana. However, they have seal of wisdom, judgement of wisdom, and divine plea and only the seal of wisdom decreases their DPS at all.

Your talk of how much int paladins have doesn't even really come into play here since the abilities are on base mana and the mana return with JotW is on base mana as well. It's all percentages and as I showed in the post above, the basic damage roation of a ret paladin left him in a mana generating state. If mages and warlocks don't gain mana from a cycle of their rotations, I see no reason why paladins should.

You can compare the ret paladin to the other classes all you want, but at the end of the day they don't have a rage bar or an energy bar and they will be expected to manage their resources differently in accordance to that fact.

[Yatokth]

Okay, I will concede that I didn't look at this from a PvP perspective and yes things like mana drain make ret paladins fall over and die. However on the PvE side of things, I seriously challenge the assertion that paladins should not have to conciously manage their mana. It's like saying that warriors and rogues should have an infinite rage/energy bar and not have to pace themselves. Pacing is their resource management shtick, managing mana should be the shtick for Paladins. If you look through some of the comments made by developers about TBC raiding one of their complaints was that mana management was removed from most classes entirely and they wanted to bring some of that back.

Saying Divine Plea is no good also makes no sense to me. It's an added buffer for your mana pool that can be used once a minute with no channeling or negative impact on you whatsoever. It's to make you last longer before going OOM. The use of it on that beta test let the paladin keep going for 3 minutes straight before going oom. I'd say that sounds about right for someone not using seal of wisdom and not getting mana back from heals. (Yeah, that's right. If you use seal of blood in PvE, a healer will heal you and you get more mana back.)

I could understand the complaint as well if paladins had no way to get back mana. However, they have seal of wisdom, judgement of wisdom, and divine plea and only the seal of wisdom decreases their DPS at all.

Your talk of how much int paladins have doesn't even really come into play here since the abilities are on base mana and the mana return with JotW is on base mana as well. It's all percentages and as I showed in the post above, the basic damage roation of a ret paladin left him in a mana generating state. If mages and warlocks don't gain mana from a cycle of their rotations, I see no reason why paladins should.

You can compare the ret paladin to the other classes all you want, but at the end of the day they don't have a rage bar or an energy bar and they will be expected to manage their resources differently in accordance to that fact.

Looking at it from a PvE perspective I see your point - however no paladin in a pvp perspective will survive using seal or judgement of wisdom. Period.

Is their DPS too high?

It doesn't look like it, even over large amounts of time.

Let's not forget that Judgements of the Wise also in fact replenishes mana TO THE ENTIRE RAID - So if a Retadin is in your raid with his lolblueragebar, you're getting extra mana regen too, so his DPS isn't going to eclipse yours (which it doesn't)

I think the mechanic was fine as is for both PvE and PvP, I see no reason to change it, only to move it.

[Naheal]

If a paladin is using Seal of Wisdom as a DPS seal, something is terribly wrong.

If a paladin has a choice between helping to keep the tank up or to give the raid mana (which they can do with JotW, btw), the choice is keeping the tank up.

If we're going to compare Ret to anything in PvE, compare it to Rogues, Fury/arms warriors, Enhance Shaman, or Feral Druid.

[Anorah]

Warriors and rogues do not have a finite rage or energy bar. They can generate it through attacking. Once a paladin goes oom, that's it. We're done DPSing for that fight unless we use a pot, or get an ennervate. And then after we've used up that mana, we're done again.

Warriors and rogues can regenerate their crap, we can't in those patch notes. Tests have been done and we're almost WORSE off for our sustainability than pre 3.0. 1 and a half minutes of a GOOD attack chain = oom. It's 2 steps forwards, 3 steps backwards. If this goes live, lolret will be the word of the day again. Blizzard wants to nerf our damage? Fine, but don't screw our sustainability too. One or the other. Incidentally I've still lost in 1v1's to good players of pretty much all classes. I can beat them, they can beat me. OH NO!

Edit: I'm not angry yet, this is in beta. I'm kind of upset that they're even considering this however. We'll see what version of it makes it to the PTR. Then I'll decide wether or not I'm pissed or content. I'm just starting to get really frustrated with the grief I've been getting in game, and the 180 blizzard may be taking with my class/spec

[Taknar]

This is how I would decide the amount to regen from JotW:

using a 40 second cycle

4 divine storms = 12&#37; x 4 = 48% base mana
6 Crusader strikes = 8% x 6 = 48% base mana
5 Judgements = 5% x 5 = 25% base mana

and for fun, 2 flash of lights = 7% x 2 = 14% base mana

So over 40 seconds, using 48% + 48% + 25% + 14% = 135% base mana used

Divided by the 5 times you'll get JotW you need 27% per judgement to maintain that pattern.

I would peg JotW at an even 25% base mana returned, so that you will eventually run oom. That means that after each 40 second cycle you will have lost (135% - 5 x 25% = 10%) 10% base mana, letting you keep the rotation going for 400 seconds, or 6 and 2/3rds minutes.

Add approx. 25% base mana for every 1 minute you go (divine plea, and the argument can be made because 25% base mana <= 25% total mana) and each divine plea gives you 2.5 more 40 second cycles. Which, oddly enough, pays for itself so you would still never have mana issues even at 25% base mana returned. It guess it would have to be even lower.


Someone want to do the math on how long you should be able to maintain the basic rotation using a 15% base mana JotW?


Also, Blizzard sends aid for raiding ret paladins with the Glyph of Seal of Blood (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=43867)!

[Naheal]

I run with Seal of Corruption and top meters with it. Corruption just judges MUCH harder than Blood does right now when you've got a full stack from yourself and your friendly tanking pally. Ticks for a fair amount, too. (Around 460 a tick for me atm).

Blood's health costs are quickly mitigated by Divine Storm and Judgement of Light, and, since those heals come from you, you gain no mana.

And, taken from the General Forums: (Thread is here. (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11829506760&sid=1))


Total of 5000 total pool at lvl 80, 5/5 in Benediction for -10&#37; mana cost


+15% Base Mana every 7 seconds = JotW + 7 Second Judgments /w 4 set bonus
- 10.8% Base Mana every 12 seconds = Divine Storm
- 7.2% Base Mana every 6 seconds = Crusader Strike
- 4.5% Base Mana every 8 seconds = Judging
- 5.4% Base Mana every ~15 seconds = Cleansing
- 2.7% Base Mana every 30 seconds = Hammer of Justice
- 8.1% Base Mana every 1 minute = Repentance


(Does not include the mana costs for - Hammer of Wrath, Blessing of Freedom, Blessing of Protection, Avenging Wrath, Re-Sealing, Consecration... or any type of HEALING)

Within 1 minute this means :

8.6 x JotW = 8.6 x 15% = + 128% Base Mana
5-6 x DStorm = 5 x 10.8% = - 54% Base Mana
10 x CStrike = 10 x 7.2% = - 72% Base Mana
8.6 x Judgments = 8.6 x 4.5% = - 38.7% Base Mana
4 x Cleanse = 4 x 5.4% = -21.6% Base Mana
2 x HoJ = 2 x 3% = -5.4% Base Mana
1 x Repentance = -8.1% Base Mana
0.25% mana per second * 60 = 1+5%

Total :

+ 143 % Base Mana Gained
- 199.8 % Base Mana Lost

= - 56.8% Base Mana Lost (Starting full this means down to less than a half of manapool)

Edit: on a related note, Prot's not doin' half bad in PvP atm (using ret pvp gear).

[Taknar]

Haven't read it fully yet, but wanted to share:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11829377145&sid=2000

Live forums: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11829377161&sid=1

Read the live forums at your own risk.


Hello paladins,

Sorry we didn't get a chance to pre-announce these changes before the data were pushed to the beta. I won't try to sugarcoat it -- these are nerfs.

As I tried to explain before, we concluded a couple of weeks ago that Retribution was doing too much damage in PvP. We tried to nerf the burst damage through the previous changes to Divine Storm etc. Unfortunately, those changes didn't prove sufficient. Not only were paladins still destroying other classes in PvP, but we also found their PvE damage, even at level 80, was too high. Many classes were concluding they were too weak based on comparing their numbers to paladin numbers (and to be fair, hunters and in some cases mages and warriors).

Here are the new changes:

1) Judgements of the Wise: Mana gained reduced from 33&#37; to 15% of base mana. We spent many hours arriving at this number. For example, we did a lot of Patchwerk fights, watching the mana bar to see when and if it ever went down. In BGs, we were seeing paladins able to go from target to target without pausing even when unleashing all of their attacks. While we don't want you to go OOM in a few seconds, we don't want you to ignore the mana bar either. Mana is not rage -- warriors can't typically start a battle with a full bar.

2) Judgement of Wisdom: mana gained reduced to 1% of maximum mana and proc frequency cut by 50%. This ability was flat out better than Vampiric Touch when the mana provided between the two really needs to be close in order for the decision between Shadow priest and Retribution paladin to be a real one.

3) Judgement and Seals: Damage reduced by 20%. This is the major damage adjustment -- a lot of damage was coming from these. We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation).

4) Hammer of Wrath: Now can’t be used until the target is below 20% health. Our rule of thumb is that core "Execute-style" abilities work at 20% and talented abilities work at 35% health. We originally had Hammer at 35% based on some other limitations of the spell.

5) Art of War: Increased damage bonus to Judgements, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm. I'll report back on the exact numbers here when we've settled on them.

I also want to add that the token Blessing of Might change wasn't intended as a joke -- it is designed so that Battle Shouts won't cancel the longer and more expensive Blessing of Might in a group setting.

These seem like pretty severe nerfs, but that was the intention. It is difficult for some players to ever be truly objective with issues surrounding their class, but in this case we felt Ret was severely overpowered. This was not in the realm of small tweaks to fix (though we did try originally). We overhauled the paladin class for Lich King, so it is unfortunate but not too surprising that the numbers for the dps spec require a lot of iteration. The mistake is ours, not the fault of the player base or beta testers.

Nerfing a spec or class is never fun. It means that our initial estimates of numbers were off and we know that the community is going to react negatively (to put it mildly). But we have to try and keep the game in a relatively balanced state and that is going to mean making decisions that are unpopular sometimes. If you need to blame someone for the nerfs, blame me.

As always, if we over-compensated, we'll adjust the numbers again. But as I said, our initial round of nerfs wasn't sufficient. Lest you fear that Lich King is upon as and you won't see any additional changes, that is not our point of view. We changed a lot in the game and we need to be able to recitfy problems. I would expect early patches or even hotfixes to deal with class or balance problems, and hopefully these will slow down as we get closer to major content releases. But nothing is off the table after we ship, down to rearchitecting talent trees if we think that is called for. This isn't to suggest we aren't happy with the state of the game. Rather, my word that we will continue to iterate on problem areas as they come up.

I also want to stress that we do not make balance decisions based on the QQ of other classes. At most, if there is a pretty vocal outcry that will encourage us to rerun the numbers to see if something is amiss. As vocal, and sometimes passionate and even logical as forum posts can be, they represent a fraction of the entire fanbase and it would be foolish for us to clobber one group of players solely based on the whining from another group.

Go ahead and vent if you have to. We won't delete posts or ban posters in this thread unless they are overly offensive. We do ask that you not launch a thousand other threads so that other paladin issues can still be discussed. Likewise, we have no problem with other classes engaging in the discussion but outright gloating or trolling will be frowned upon.

And I do apologize for putting you through this.

[Lisbet]

Didn't take long for the qq outcry to make blizzard just distroy the entire paladin class instead of solving the burst damage issues ret was bringing up.


Yep.

[Kaliera]

Didn't take long for the qq outcry to make blizzard just distroy the entire paladin class instead of solving the burst damage issues ret was bringing up.


Yep.


As I tried to explain before, we concluded a couple of weeks ago that Retribution was doing too much damage in PvP. We tried to nerf the burst damage through the previous changes to Divine Storm etc. Unfortunately, those changes didn't prove sufficient. Not only were paladins still destroying other classes in PvP, but we also found their PvE damage, even at level 80, was too high. Many classes were concluding they were too weak based on comparing their numbers to paladin numbers (and to be fair, hunters and in some cases mages and warriors).


These seem like pretty severe nerfs, but that was the intention. It is difficult for some players to ever be truly objective with issues surrounding their class, but in this case we felt Ret was severely overpowered. This was not in the realm of small tweaks to fix (though we did try originally).


As always, if we over-compensated, we'll adjust the numbers again. But as I said, our initial round of nerfs wasn't sufficient.

TL;DR: The developers found Ret to be overpowered at 80 in both PvP and PvE. Changes were made. If said changes are too much, they'll be tweaked.

Blizzard has stated over and over and over that they want all DPS classes to be doing similar damage in PvE content. Through vanilla and TBC, lower DPS could be justified through group utility. With that out of the equation, if a DPS class is doing significantly less damage than the other, blizzard doesn't even have a choice in the matter. If they want to stick with their design decision, the class will HAVE to be buffed. It's no longer a matter of "give X class Y utility", it's comparable DPS or nothing.

[Lisbet]

Except that Paladins still were not doing what other classes were, except on undead mobs, like patchwerk. Their solution to pvp qq, yes, pvp qq, was to reduce the amount of damage done TO ALL SEALS AND JUDGEMENT, which not only distroys ret DPS in its previous state (see - pre patch) but also takes big chunks of damage and threat generation to prot paladins and holy paladins ---

Paladin is a melee class. They are not "spell casters with a melee tree" like shamans, nor should they work like caster classes with the excption of their healing tree -- which in the end, still requires them to melee in order to do things solo. by reducing the damage done across the board they are not solving the "ret problem", they are creating a "Paladin" problem.


So yes, now Ret paladins can be at the bottem of the DPS charts with Shadow priests, because neither of our classes should be doing anything but healing anyway.. Right? I'm very glad that battleground pvp dictates how the rest of this game -- you know, the only bit I actually play it for -- is played!

[Kaliera]

Except that Paladins still were not doing what other classes were, except on undead mobs, like patchwerk.


Yes, they were. There were only a few classes beating Retribution on the damage meters in general, and those included hunters, lucky warriors, and mages. Hunters and warriors have had a pass taken to them with the armor changes in an attempt to bring them down a notch.

Keep in mind that it's blizzard's intention to have all classes doing roughly 3.5k dps in entry level gear. When you see people doing 4-5k (yes, Ret included), those are not the numbers to base balance around. Each of the classes doing substantially more DPS than 3.5k will have it's numbers tuned down according to Blizz's philosophy on PvE DPS balance.

[Cpike]

Completely predictable. It doesn't matter who is FoTM, at end of the day, the classes who were OP for more than a year will get back their pvp status eventually and still think it's skill when actually, you have a huuuuge advantage over everything else. HELLO ROGUES AND (RESTO) DRUIDS! ...Sorry, Warlock was a few months away from reaching perma end game pvp OP when they use to be king.

Yes, this means you mages are on the chopping block! May not get cut down within a month, but eventually the original "elite" outcry will bring ya down! (And this isn't me screaming nerf as I believe I need to see 80 first. I'm literally saying the mains of the two classes above will come crashing down, and it will hurt inside.)

[NotMaithanet]

They sent Ghostcrawler out to diiiiiiiiiiie.

[Kaliera]

They sent Ghostcrawler out to diiiiiiiiiiie.

I do pity the crab. She'll never live down the "TO THE GROUND" quote for as long as she's employed.

[Anthek]

I do pity the crab. She'll never live down the "TO THE GROUND" quote for as long as she's employed.

He, as we found out at Blizzcon.

[Yatokth]

I still find the JotW nerf questionable.

Guess we'll see.

[Cpike]

Ghostcrawler = Kalgan's spokesman. Must have gotten death letters, so he sits in the background, over time going un noticed, while GC becomes the new target! Way to go you s infinite rockin' ugly bastard! OOC LoS, getting out of "combat". (Of course my accusation in claiming GC is Kalgan's speaker/tool/redirect enemies on person could be wrong. However the angry paladin within me says otherwise!)

Ok, about Rets..If they really wanted to tone down the spec, because yes..A ret in greens and blues destroying people is a big WTF! Nerfing the seals, judgments, and JotW..All way off. Unless of course you want to pick fights with all paladin specs, because the official boards do show there is no unity among specs.

Rets say they don't have a closer, can be kited, CS needs mortal strike, bla bla bla. Well, I always thought Rets were suppose to be the people you HAVE to kite, otherwise their burst would slaughter you. That was the trade off for being kited. There is/or would be no flaw in that setup, if pvp was based in the world or rated BGs, instead of small scale pvp. (This statement refers to if the burst was fair for both sides aka balance. Not crapped on, nor steroided.)

No mortal strike? Well the utility of the Ret is to off heal in case another healer is too tangled up.

Blizzard knocking down the DPS -AND- mana regen? Both being ripped down at once is uncalled for.

[Leoren]

I really hate when my cynicism actually pans out.

[Ignas]

Did anyone else see this coming a mile away like a tornado... in a corn field... in Oklahoma?

Oh well, nothing I can do but sit back and take it like a man and hope that Ghostcrawler is true to his words about fixing it if it's too much.

*Edit: And I am not saying that Ret was balanced before, just that some of these nerfs seem uncalled for or a little excessive.

[Naheal]

Something to look at. (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11829507901&sid=1)

[Moknim]

Blizzard knocking down the DPS -AND- mana regen? Both being ripped down at once is uncalled for.

I usually only say this about myself, but seriously Cpike you need to hear it:

QQ some more please.

Everyone knew this nerf was coming and was needed. Both DPS and mana regen had to come down at least somewhat. Granted I am not in the beta (kali can attest to it though, so I will table those comments) but ret could start a fight, burst down a player or two and walk out on the other side of the fight full health and full mana without using a bubble. No other class can (or should be able to) do that. Some ret changes were needed. Granted, they didn't hit you with a nerfbat but what appears to be a giant nerfmace, I doubt all of these changes will make it as they are into the next patch.

I really do pity the crab though, as usual he is just the messenger - and is getting killed or it.

Oh, and Cpike if you really think resto druids are any kind of threat in arenas, you haven't been in a post-patch arena. It is laughable. Kali will back me up on that. Cause Boomadin is balanced, right Kali? In fact, I am happy with the dual-spec thing only because healing in arenas really is not viable right now (Speaking of 2s, which is all I have played), but thats another thread...which I think I will go start.

[Lisbet]

No its not a qq issue Moknim. I don't even PLAY a paladin and I'm upset. Why? Because they aren't fixing anything, they are breaking the paladin class. The WHOLE POINT of the original buff wasn't for pvp, but for PVE, so ret could actually be more then just the "token buff guy". They aren't solving the problem by reducing the damage THE ENTIRE CLASS DOES, by reducing the staple of the class -- Judgement of the wise-- which they completely overhauled Paladins in general for, to 15&#37; from 33% is not just "game breaking" for ret paladins..

It also means that Holy paladins now do zero melee damage to single targets, and will run out of mana fairly quickly doing anything but healing -- you know, like questing or doing dailies.

Ret paladins went from an infinate mana bar - much like a rogue never runs completely out of energy and a warrior always has some rage - to running out of mana on PVE encounters (5 mans and raids) in three minutes.


Something that my asshole guild members aren't understanding, and alot of people here aren't either, is a Paladin is NOT a caster hybrid class. They have a HEALING tree - with one semi-offencive caster spell (holy shock), a Tank tree, and a Melee tree. If they were a Caster Hybrid, they would have a healing tree, a Caster Tree, and a Melee tree - Like Druids and Shamans.

A paladin MUST MELEE to do anything, in any spec. A holy paladin MUST MELEE to quest and do dailies. A Prot paladin must melee to gain threat. By reducing the damage their seals and judgements do by 20% makes it impossible for either of these two specs to do their jobs or their dailies and leveling quests.


DONT WORRY PALADINS THAT LEVEL TO 80 AS HOLY, YOU CAN ALWAYS HOLY SHOCK AND AUTO ATTACK!


What, a paladin tank? Yea no, they can't hold agro against the rest of our group. Sorry!


Again - Its very sad that they've taken what battlegrounds have recorded, and what paladins damage done was on PATCHWERK - an undead mob, because you know, thats what paladins do best, kill undead - and used it to nerf the class. Don't you dare tell me that they didn't base it on those two things, because its exactly what Ghostcrawler said they based it off of.


Atleast Shadow Priests wont be the only people on the bottem of DPS anymore, amirite?

[Chikt]

Again - Its very sad that they've taken what battlegrounds have recorded, and what paladins damage done was on PATCHWERK - an undead mob, because you know, thats what paladins do best, kill undead - and used it to nerf the class. Don't you dare tell me that they didn't base it on those two things, because its exactly what Ghostcrawler said they based it off of.

And that pisses me off, because every other time a class has done spectacularly in the battlegrounds, Blizzard has shrugged it off and said that they balance for PvP based on 3v3's and 5v5's. Why the sudden change of heart?

Thing is, if you're going to be pessimistic about the Paladin changes, of COURSE things are just going to get worse - because that is all you're going to see. Paladins DID need a nerf. Perhaps not to this extent, but they did need a nerf. Even WITH their mana efficiency stuff. Because they never ran out of mana. At all. And having a paladin in a group with me meant I never needed to use Earth Shield, my mana would never drop below 80&#37;, if even 90%. So that needed to come down, drastically.

I run out of mana damn fast in fights, water shield or no, and that is an issue ALL mana based classes are having at 80 last I heard. EVERYBODY is only lasting for a really short time, everybody except Paladins who could last as long as their health didn't drop down. It's a far different mechanic from Rogues or Warriors, who need to do something to get out their most DPS - paladins were just doing it at what equated to no cost with no real thought required. Which makes a skilled paladin a truly difficult thing to kill.

That isn't to say, however, that mana efficiency is not a big issue for all mana using classes currently. I know it is particularly a problem for me.

Paladins are not a caster hybrid class, I agree with you there. But they are a hybrid class to a degree. You have a healing, tanking and dps tree, which I think definitely makes you a hybrid. It's just that unlike other hybrid classes, all your damage in all those trees has to be done in melee. A holy paladin can still heal without doing melee damage, though. If you needed to be doing melee damage to heal (which would be awesome) I think things would be very different.

Speaking as somebody that used to play a Resto Shaman full time though, longevity doing anything but healing in combat is not an issue limited to Paladins. Hell. Longevity actually HEALING in combat is an issue for Resto Shaman right now, particularly if you are PvP specced and have earth shield on yourself instead of water shield. Then you're screwed.

In a nutshell, this ISN'T the Burning Crusade we're talking about, and almost EVERY class is complaining about being underpowered. It's not at all something limited to Paladins, they are simply in the limelight because they were given this awesome new toy before having it snatched away again. I agree that the nerfs that they were on the receiving end of were HARSH, but speaking as somebody studying game design, studios balance upwards, not downwards. Which is why you see so many nerfs to a class before a buff is given. Such a harsh nerf suggests that Blizzard want to focus on Paladins for a while to get them where they feel is best for them. So they took down problematic abilities (and some not problematic) to slowly buff them up until they get them to the right place.

Could these changes make 3.03? Quite possibly. But don't forget that Paladins made it into 3.02 extremely OP to begin with and are now getting nerfed. This doesn't mean that they are never going to be balanced with any other class because Blizzard plans on keeping them here at this point forever. That's obviously not the case because Blizzard seemed to think for the longest time (and were in disagreement about) Paladins being balanced in 3.02.

Pessimism breeds pessimism. This is largely why I try not to keep up with the Shaman class changes or, when I do, do not think anything of them until I have it in my hands. That's why I was so impressed with Thunder. I heard "AOE Knockback" and decided to wait and see what it was like before I got all excited and came out disappointed. So when I DID get it in my hands and it was AWESOME, I actually wanted to play WoW MORE.

This was a massive nerf, there's no doubt, but if you're pessimistic about your class even the SMALLEST nerf feels like a baseball bat to the nutsack. And it's easy to get burned out on optimism, too. Expect nothing. Then when you actually do something great with the class, you can be pleasantly surprised. Which, honestly, I fully expect to still be the case with Ret Paladins.

People can say lolret all they want, the class has ALWAYS done awesome shit. I seem to remember Leoren being top DPS back in his raiding days and Anorah still being deadly out in the field way back before they were OP. But the fucking pessimism that people seem to innately have about Ret Paladins seems to just cloud their judgment as to how good the class REALLY IS, even when they ARE over powered.


Warriors and rogues do not have a finite rage or energy bar. They can generate it through attacking. Once a paladin goes oom, that's it. We're done DPSing for that fight unless we use a pot, or get an ennervate. And then after we've used up that mana, we're done again.

Warriors and rogues can regenerate their crap, we can't in those patch notes. Tests have been done and we're almost WORSE off for our sustainability than pre 3.0. 1 and a half minutes of a GOOD attack chain = oom. It's 2 steps forwards, 3 steps backwards. If this goes live, lolret will be the word of the day again. Blizzard wants to nerf our damage? Fine, but don't screw our sustainability too. One or the other. Incidentally I've still lost in 1v1's to good players of pretty much all classes. I can beat them, they can beat me. OH NO!

This isn't just a mechanic for Paladins. This is a mechanic for ALL mana classes. Once you go out of mana, you ARE screwed. Paladins aren't the only class that fight in melee and use mana, either. Enhancement Shaman have always had mana longevity issues in melee combat. You should have a finite mana bar, especially when you do spectacular burst damage that a Rogue or Warrior cannot achieve in the same span of time. That's your mechanic. Nerfing both at the same time, I think everybody agrees, is extremely harsh.

I won't go into your comments about losing to other classes because I don't doubt that you do. But I think you need to consider how many equally good players are still incapable of killing you, too. I like to think I'm a good player, but we both know how a duel 1v1 between you and I will end. Maybe there's some big shaman secret to beating Ret Paladins I am missing, but I don't know what it is yet. I just really think some Paladins need to consider how many times they win and how many times they lose before you suggest that being able to be beaten by good players of every other class makes you balanced. That's not how balance works, and why so often I'm told "Shaman are fine, l2p". :P

I'm fully capable of beating a bad Ret Paladin though, that's easy. But somebody on par with me skill wise will kick my ass.

[Broxigan]

Actually, I think it was needed. Seeing Paladins ripping through everything, watching resilence packed folks drop like flies, dealing with them getting onto their high horse and just smashing through lowbie zones because they can...it is needed. I have been questing a bit with my little bro and it was insane. Their PVE viability was just as bad as warriors were with the 1.5&#37; healing ability to Blood Thirst when I got into beta. I knew it was coming and it was needed.

Is it going to be a big hit? Yeah. Is it going to be too big of a nerf? Probably.

The problem comes from the fact that when people get into Beta, alot of them do not test. They play, see they are OP and do a happy dance. They don't report the fact they are out DPSing DPS only classes. They go around, ganking for the shits and giggles of it all because they know they can.

As for the aggro issues you mentioned Lisbet, they have already said that the aggro has been changed dramatically for the expansion. Every move for tanks have had their aggro producing tables bumped up. If it is wrong and Paladin tanks can't hold aggro, they will fix it.

Change happens. People cry about it. Blizzard seems to make the changes for the QQs, but they don't. They make the changes based on their numbers and watching the community. Stooping down to the level of the official forum folks and saying it was all done for the QQ...you are better than that. You are.

Also, the game has become a PVP based game, regardless of what people say or what Blizz says. If the entire game was PVE, everything would be fine and people would only be crying about not being top DPS anymore.

[Moknim]

Again - Its very sad that they've taken what battlegrounds have recorded, and what paladins damage done was on PATCHWERK - an undead mob, because you know, thats what paladins do best, kill undead - and used it to nerf the class. Don't you dare tell me that they didn't base it on those two things, because its exactly what Ghostcrawler said they based it off of.

As a side note, the Crab said they weren't looking only at Patchwerk.


We tested under a lot of different situations with and without undead and with different levels of gear and buffs present. I use Patchwerk as an example a lot because players understand that it is a very simple boss fight in which there is no running around, adds or damage to the raid.

I'm not saying Pallys didn't get hit with the nerfbat - they did. They needed it. I know that Pallys and S.Priests are the most worried about DPS because they were marginalized, but Blizz seems to have taken a new stance on how classes should be balanced (ie. all DPS classes should do similar DPS with the same skill and gear and the right spec).

Some of the stuff you are saying I buy (it causes holy problems) other things you said I think are total BS (threat problems for Prot - the threat ceiling is pretty much done away with from what I have seen).

I don't know how to fix the problems except by nerfing the bursty damage retadins do (which was needed considering the decimation they caused in PvP) and making mana somewhat of an issue (from my understanding, they want to make mana management an issue for all mana based classes). Questing as Holy...dunno what they can do - I did dailies as a resto druid, I understand - its sucks royally.

I think I may be the only person in this thread who doesn't expect these changes to go through as they are now, though...

/Mok

PS - The QQ comment was directed solely at Cpike, as he has not added much of anything but QQ - I think it is beneficial to talk through a class/get opinions, but his has been "Paladins aren't doing too much damage and Resto Druids are going to be SO OP in arenas" which doesn't benefit anyone.

[Broxigan]

They needed it. I know that Pallys and S.Priests are the most worried about DPS because they were marginalized, but Blizz seems to have taken a new stance on how classes should be balanced (ie. all DPS classes should do similar DPS with the same skill and gear and the right spec).

This right here. I am glad Blizzard is attempting to do this, and it is going to screw up alot of classes, some will be unbalanced, but it will all even out eventually.

Yes, the nerf came. Another class will get it in a month then we will all be bitching about that.

Such is the cycle.

[Chikt]

I'm not saying Pallys didn't get hit with the nerfbat - they did. They needed it. I know that Pallys and S.Priests are the most worried about DPS because they were marginalized, but Blizz seems to have taken a new stance on how classes should be balanced (ie. all DPS classes should do similar DPS with the same skill and gear and the right spec).

Which is why currently you can find whining about DPS output from all DPS classes/specs on their respective forums. I understand that elemental DPS at 80 is an increasing concern for raiding Shaman because they're struggling so much, but then I hear that they're doing as much damage as every other class.

The current theme of the day in Wrath seems to be that everybody (save a select few) sucks. Which is a sure sign that we're on the path to a far more balanced game.

[Anorah]

No other class can (or should be able to) do that.

See enhancement shaman.

Edit: Too tired, first part of quote was saying that Paladins could move from target to target without losing mana. While doing insane burst.

[Chikt]

See enhancement shaman.

To point out what Lisbet said earlier. Paladins are not a caster hybrid class, shaman are. Totally different mechanics, DPS and ways of outputting it, my dear. Which is why Enhancement Shaman aren't popular choices for PvP.

[Moknim]

See enhancement shaman.

Edit: Too tired, first part of quote was saying that Paladins could move from target to target without losing mana. While doing insane burst.

Umm...Lol?

full quote:

...ret could start a fight, burst down a player or two and walk out on the other side of the fight full health and full mana without using a bubble. No other class can (or should be able to) do that.

Enhance Shaman lose mana (they just have a way to gain it back after it gets really low) and don't have stuns nor do their attacks give health back (which is how retadins are coming out of duels 'unscathed'). Shaman also do not have on-demand burst damage like ret does. I wish I could push a button to make WF proc and then have those hits proc maelstrom, but I can't. Ret burst is on-demand.

And if you have ever played as an enhance shaman in PvP it goes something like this: get rooted => /dance while you get destroyed

What I said was in reference to the stun, destroy, move on to the next person, stun, destroy, move on to the next person - that ret was doing without losing mana or health.

EDIT: Dio also makes a good point re: mechanics.

[Anorah]

My reference was to the mana part entirely. I didn't really feel like responding to the rest of your post. I never see a geared enhance go down in mana in bg's. Maybe they regain it, maybe they just don't lose it. All I know is they keep going.

[Yatokth]

And if you have ever played as an enhance shaman in PvP it goes something like this: get rooted => /dance while you get destroyed

I'd just like to point out this seems like exagerration.

I play a warrior, a class notoriously 'terrible' without a 'pocket healer' who gets 'CCed and kited and pwnt' before he can do anything.

It's simply not true. There are many ways around kiting. Yes, I have intercept/bladestorm, but do enh shamans not have feral spirits (movement speed increase + stuns?), earthbind breaking roots, and ghost wolf to catch up?

I'm not saying enh is god-like, but if you're good at your class, it doesn't strike me as -bad- for PvP atm.


My reference was to the mana part entirely. I didn't really feel like responding to the rest of your post. I never see a geared enhance go down in mana in bg's. Maybe they regain it, maybe they just don't lose it. All I know is they keep going.

I think that's what blizz is aiming for - you're not supposed to OOM after killing one person, but your mana is supposed to go -down-. Currently, it wasn't.

Now, I still disagree myself with the JotW change, but I'm beginning to see their reasoning.

[Chikt]

My reference was to the mana part entirely. I didn't really feel like responding to the rest of your post. I never see a geared enhance go down in mana in bg's. Maybe they regain it, maybe they just don't lose it. All I know is they keep going.

Heh! You probably never see their mana go down because they spend 90&#37; of their time in Battlegrounds dead and coming back to life with 100% health and mana. :P

If anything, Enhancement has mana longevity problems. They often don't even last 3 minutes in a fight, they just have ways to restore it.

Water Shield only gives 50MP5 and restores 500 mana when stuck at most, and with those 3 charges being removed every second hit it doesn't last long and most people don't bother to refresh it.

Shamanistic Rage is pretty damn good when you have extremely high AP, which Enhancement Shaman now stack more than ever. But it certainly isn't enough to stop their mana dropping pretty fast.

[NotMaithanet]

Actually, I think it was needed. Seeing Paladins ripping through everything, watching resilence packed folks drop like flies, dealing with them getting onto their high horse and just smashing through lowbie zones because they can...it is needed. I have been questing a bit with my little bro and it was insane. Their PVE viability was just as bad as warriors were with the 1.5&#37; healing ability to Blood Thirst when I got into beta. I knew it was coming and it was needed.

Is it going to be a big hit? Yeah. Is it going to be too big of a nerf? Probably.

The problem comes from the fact that when people get into Beta, alot of them do not test. They play, see they are OP and do a happy dance. They don't report the fact they are out DPSing DPS only classes. They go around, ganking for the shits and giggles of it all because they know they can.

As for the aggro issues you mentioned Lisbet, they have already said that the aggro has been changed dramatically for the expansion. Every move for tanks have had their aggro producing tables bumped up. If it is wrong and Paladin tanks can't hold aggro, they will fix it.

Change happens. People cry about it. Blizzard seems to make the changes for the QQs, but they don't. They make the changes based on their numbers and watching the community. Stooping down to the level of the official forum folks and saying it was all done for the QQ...you are better than that. You are.

Also, the game has become a PVP based game, regardless of what people say or what Blizz says. If the entire game was PVE, everything would be fine and people would only be crying about not being top DPS anymore.

Are you kidding?

Ret Paladin is fine in beta for however long, it goes live and two days later the nerfs begin and you're telling this is is NOT in part to the QQing of the player base? Come off it. Bladestorm/Recklessness drops two people at a time if you have a snare, Rogues have more ways than ever to destroy people and then run awaaaaaaaay. A Moonkin can Starfire for 6,000 damage. Paladins had.... Burst but you're telling me that WE'RE the problem? Remove the burst and what exactly DOES a Ret Paladin bring that a Holy Paladin wont?

I again re-iterate that I think Ret Pallies were OP in some aspects (Behold I will not relent on the JotW nerf. So very stupid.) but I'm getting really sick of other classes who have viability in all aspects of the game telling me and mine to suck it up.

So, can someone who's telling me how I needed my nerf and how wrong and OP we were maybe give a suggestion on how I'm going to actually get an arena team come 80? I have... No Mortal Strike... No Snare... No CC (I *Dare* you to call Repentance a CC) and with the JotW nerf I'll be Viper Stung, Mana Burn or Mana Drained in no time (No Int on my gear, what?) and with no healing debuff any damage I do is essentially null because I apply zero pressure to a healer.

The overall tone of ths post reflects how tired I am with hearing how I needed to be nerfed and how Blizzard will come back and fix us. The history of Ret Paladin suggests this wont happen. Just remember... TO THE GROUND, BABY.

[Yatokth]

Are you kidding?

Ret Paladin is fine in beta for however long, it goes live and two days later the nerfs begin and you're telling this is is NOT in part to the QQing of the player base? Come off it. Bladestorm/Recklessness destorys people. Rogues have more ways than ever to destroy people and then run awaaaaaaaay. A Moonkin can Starfire for 6,000 damage. Paladins had.... Burst but you're telling me that WE'RE the problem? Remove the burst and what exactly DOES a Ret Paladin bring that a Holy Paladin wont?

You could do ridiculous kinds of burst while being immune to CC, damage, or stoppage of any kind short of a dispel from a class you could completely destroy in the duration of your HoJ.

There was a bug on beta with damage stacking from percent modifier talents, and Blizz didn't want to nerf retadins because of bugs - so they waited. It wasn't cause of the live QQ, it was cause they finally got the hard data they needed that showed them that retadins were doing too much damage.

Also, other classes will get nerfs if they're too OP as well. Boomkins pack a punch atm - not sure if they wanna lower that.


I again re-iterate that I think Ret Pallies were OP in some aspects (Behold I will not relent on the JotW nerf. So very stupid.) but I'm getting really sick of other classes who have viability in all aspects of the game telling me and mine to suck it up.

So, can someone who's telling me how I needed my nerf and how wrong and OP we were maybe give a suggestion on how I'm going to actually get an arena team come 80? I have... No Mortal Strike... No Snare... No CC (I *Dare* you to call Repentance a CC) and with the JotW nerf I'll be Viper Stung, Mana Burn or Mana Drained in no time (No Int on my gear, what?) and with no healing debuff any damage I do is essentially null because I apply zero pressure to a healer.

Repentance is a CC. So is HoJ. Not only are they CC, they're damn good CC. Repentance is shorter than blind, but otherwise nearly the same, and Blind is one of the most powerful arena CCs out there. In the kind of team that a retadin will fit, all they'll need is that amount of CC.

And you can HEAL. You can backup heal, you can heal yourself, AND then switch right back to doing damage - keep in mind just cause your damage is no longer ludicrous doesn't mean it's going to suck. It just won't be over the top.

You're a melee/healer hybrid basically - You'll work for some comps, and you won't for others. For example, double ret will still be viable. IT won't be as dominant as it has been, but I wager it'll still be going pretty strong, just because of the way the class works. Specially if you're a blood elf with that silence. (that's not a retadin skill, and another problem entirely, but it is true) Could you perhaps use a low cooldown spell interrupt? Yeah, but that's as far as I'd go.

[NotMaithanet]

Repentance is a CC. So is HoJ. Not only are they CC, they're damn good CC. Repentance is shorter than blind, but otherwise nearly the same, and Blind is one of the most powerful arena CCs out there. In the kind of team that a retadin will fit, all they'll need is that amount of CC.

And you can HEAL. You can backup heal, you can heal yourself, AND then switch right back to doing damage - keep in mind just cause your damage is no longer ludicrous doesn't mean it's going to suck. It just won't be over the top.

A Holy Paladin can heal and HoJ, I asked what I bring that a Holy Paladin doesnt. If "Repentance" is the answer I'd rather take a Rogue, see what I'm saying am do I not make sense?

[Yatokth]

A Holy Paladin can heal and HoJ, I asked what I bring that a Holy Paladin doesnt. If "Repentance" is the answer I'd rather take a Rogue, see what I'm saying am do I not make sense?

Damage AND Repentance.

Let's not forget that JotW returns mana to your party members as well. You can use your HoF to get yourself or teammates out of stuns. Retribution Aura increases damage done and attack/casting speed. Vindication reducing your opponents capabilities.

The big thing being your damage, because you can do a large amount of that, then throw a few backup/clutch heals, and get right back to it. It's your versatility that will help you out.

You're also hard to freakin kill, or at least hard to burst because of your bubble. You can give healers breathing room. You can also heal yourself, as I have already mentioned.

There are many innate benefits to a hybrid of your type that don't require massive burst damage to be good.

Also, a few benefits that are not specific to Ret, but Ret will still BRING when put in a comp:

Normal HoF
HoP - anti melee train?
All those nice blessings

[Moknim]

Remove the burst and what exactly DOES a Ret Paladin bring that a Holy Paladin wont?

Sustained damage? Just sayin' ;)


Just remember... TO THE GROUND, BABY.

Poor crab.

I'm not saying that other classes don't need some nerfs as well (Boomkin, for example, seem to be a bit OP). Also, what Yat said about the bugs.

What do you bring that a Holydin doesn't?

Umm...damage?

And other classes got nerfed in beta as well (warriors for example - titan's grip and blood thirst), yours just made it to live because of the whole bug issue.

[Keraph]

Wait wait. As a healadin, what does a HOLY paladin bring that a ret doesn't? Better heals? Not as much as you might think. Right now, I'm not entirely happy where I am as holy because yeah, I can heal like a mofo, but in shorter duration stuff, a ret will pretty much match my healing, and when healing isn't needed as much, they can turn and do rediculous damage in comparison to my meager damage.

[Yatokth]

Wait wait. As a healadin, what does a HOLY paladin bring that a ret doesn't? Better heals? Not as much as you might think. Right now, I'm not entirely happy where I am as holy because yeah, I can heal like a mofo, but in shorter duration stuff, a ret will pretty much match my healing, and when healing isn't needed as much, they can turn and do rediculous damage in comparison to my meager damage.

You bring... holy shock!!

And mana longevity!

Yeah they need to buff deep holy. =/

[Keraph]

Bacon of Light is neat and all, but really, I've been forgetting to toss it up, and I'm doing fine. Most of the stuff we have in deep holy isn't AMG NEEDED to heal well as a paladin, it just gives us longevity and stuff. But with the mana returns rets were getting, even that wasn't really only in the domain of holy. I won't say we need a BUFF, because I'm already healing like crazy rediculous. I'd prefer to see Ret pallies not doing as well in the spot healing department as a fully geared healadin. Very rarely do I even use Holy Shock as a heal, it's more there for me to toss damage in to make me a bit more useful, and proc faster Holy Lights when it crits. Holy Lights being something I rarely need to to cas, because flashspam is the mainstay of healadins

[NotMaithanet]

Yeah they need to buff deep holy. =/

This.

However for the first time ever in PvP last night I got to watch Bacon of Light at work when Ashtyn and I took out five people with just the two of us.

I'll hesitate to say it was my Ret OPness as much as it was that... And they all sucked. But man, was it funny.

Also, please buff Holy more. Good GOD it makes me a little ill.

[Moknim]

Bacon of Light is neat and all, but really, I've been forgetting to toss it up, and I'm doing fine. Most of the stuff we have in deep holy isn't AMG NEEDED to heal well as a paladin, it just gives us longevity and stuff. But with the mana returns rets were getting, even that wasn't really only in the domain of holy. I won't say we need a BUFF, because I'm already healing like crazy rediculous. I'd prefer to see Ret pallies not doing as well in the spot healing department as a fully geared healadin. Very rarely do I even use Holy Shock as a heal, it's more there for me to toss damage in to make me a bit more useful, and proc faster Holy Lights when it crits. Holy Lights being something I rarely need to to cas, because flashspam is the mainstay of healadins

This.

I think the healadins should be QQ'ing more than the retadins.

Although most every paladin seems to have gone ret.

[Kyrion]

Honestly even though I like to play my retadin they really need the nerf bat, I shouldn't be beating rogues in mostly S4 and S3 weapons when I have blues and greens....

[Keraph]

This.

I think the healadins should be QQ'ing more than the retadins.

Although most every paladin seems to have gone ret.

Yes, I am a rare breed. I resisted the call of the darker path, the weaker path, and have remained true to the Light! Rejoice, and feast on my holy bacon!

[NotMaithanet]

om nom nom nom.

[Yatokth]

Honestly even though I like to play my retadin they really need the nerf bat, I shouldn't be beating rogues in mostly S4 and S3 weapons when I have blues and greens....

Been fighting some shitty rogues, man?

Cause that's rather... insane.

[Lisbet]

You say sustained damage, I say out of mana in 3 minutes. You say "normailization" I say my shadow priest will be out dpsing Heidenreich on Kj come tuesday. Don't worry guys, you'll pvp again now that paladins are 'normal'. As for pve.. well, I mourn the loss of Heid ever joining the 4k club.

Its not right, and anyone who says otherwise is just mad because their class isn't as op as they used to be. Speaking from a class that is mediocre in healing, damage, and pvp - well, if I feel bad for paladins, shouldn't you?


Oh and - Moonkins are rediculous. I did za in all "healing" gear, and ZERO hit and was pulling 800 dps a second on Mae. Nerf Ballance.

[NotMaithanet]

Been fighting some shitty rogues, man?

Cause that's rather... insane.

Illisade (PvP gear 398 Resiliance) versus Maithanet (PvE gear) was 0-2 to Maithanet (And yes I'm counting the time he was at 5&#37; and ran like a coward.)

This is how I knew we needed a nerf. I still think it's excessive.

[Yatokth]

You say sustained damage, I say out of mana in 3 minutes. You say "normailization" I say my shadow priest will be out dpsing Heidenreich on Kj come tuesday.

Its not right, and anyone who says otherwise is just mad because their class isn't as op as they used to be. Speaking from a class that is mediocre in healing, damage, and pvp - well, if I feel bad for paladins, shouldn't you?

Actually, I say we should wait until the people here who are good at Ret play with the changes.

Yes, I think the JotW nerf is excessive. I'd be totally fine with it at 33&#37;, but Blizz isn't. Here's to hoping it settles ~25% ish.

But somehow I doubt the class is terrible oh-my-god suck-can't-kill-anything now. Good retadins will still be good, just as they were before 3.0.


Illisade (PvP gear 356 Resil maybe more) versus Maithanet (PvE gear) was 0-2 to Maithanet (And yes I'm counting the time he was at 5% and ran like a coward.)

This is how I knew we needed a nerf. I still think it's excessive.

So do I.

(And damn. I floored Seijinn when I dueled him, I'd like to duel you, Maith. :P)

[NotMaithanet]

I duel anytime. I've seen some pretty interesting Warrior tricks though I know for a fact if I get that Bladestorm in my face I'm done for. But we shall see!

[Kyrion]

Illisade (PvP gear 398 Resiliance) versus Maithanet (PvE gear) was 0-2 to Maithanet (And yes I'm counting the time he was at 5% and ran like a coward.)

This is how I knew we needed a nerf. I still think it's excessive.



Pfffffffffffffft.

Fight me on Tuesday :-D

[NotMaithanet]

Pfffffffffffffft.

Fight me on Tuesday :-D

In your own words "That's okay, soon you'll be nerfed, THEN I'll be able to beat you"

Well, no shit Sherlock. :p

[Moknim]

You say sustained damage, I say out of mana in 3 minutes. You say "normailization" I say my shadow priest will be out dpsing Heidenreich on Kj come tuesday.

Its not right, and anyone who says otherwise is just mad because their class isn't as op as they used to be. Speaking from a class that is mediocre in healing, damage, and pvp - well, if I feel bad for paladins, shouldn't you?


Oh and - Moonkins are rediculous. I did za in all "healing" gear, and ZERO hit and was pulling 800 dps a second on Mae. Nerf Ballance.

I totally agree about Balance...I think it is probably next on the list (unless things are drastically different at 80).

And you are misrepresenting what I said - I don't think the nerfs that ret got were deserved, "nerfmace" was how I described it. They got hit harder than necessary but given that Blizz has a new stance about DPS, I expect them to figure it out. I think they needed nerfs, not as much as they got, but they seriously needed nerfs. And if you don't think that is the case then you are blinded by love ;) .

But like I said, I really feel worse for Holy Paladins. Given that this is a PvP thread, I am worried about Healadin viability in Arenas than ret (worried about healers in general, but ret is doing so much healing why bring a healadin?).

On a different note, anyone know if these changes will be coming out on Tuesday? I thought they were still working on 3.0.3.

[Keraph]

You say sustained damage, I say out of mana in 3 minutes. You say "normailization" I say my shadow priest will be out dpsing Heidenreich on Kj come tuesday. Don't worry guys, you'll pvp again now that paladins are 'normal'. As for pve.. well, I mourn the loss of Heid ever joining the 4k club.

Its not right, and anyone who says otherwise is just mad because their class isn't as op as they used to be. Speaking from a class that is mediocre in healing, damage, and pvp - well, if I feel bad for paladins, shouldn't you?


Oh and - Moonkins are rediculous. I did za in all "healing" gear, and ZERO hit and was pulling 800 dps a second on Mae. Nerf Ballance.

Some of us aren't just talking out of our asses, as it were. I know the situation from the standpoints of both a paladin and a non paladin, Holy and ret, in PvE and PvP encounters, so I think I have a rediculously good grasp as to what is being affected by these changes, and for the most part I STILL support them. Not all of them, because some hurt my already abysmal Holy-spec damage, and others just seem too extreme, but the PvE hits aren't as big as you seem to be construing them as, and I've got enough experience to believe in that claim. I do think there may well be either a counter-buff to make up for some of the more extreme losses, or just a reconsideration of currently planned changes. What I do know is that as they were and are, ret paladins are not entirely balanced in a PvE or PvP setting, and this isn't coming from someone who "just isn't used to them being good" or "someone who's getting their ass kicked". I say this cause I just know the situation.

Also, "dps a second" is a bit redundant, and dps does stand for "damage per second." Aint I a stinker? <3

[Taknar]

The more I read this thread the more sad I am for TNGers.

I'll just address this one thing. The patchwerk fight wasn't used to nerf paladin damage, it was used to nerf JotW. That is, they wanted to make sure that it was a fight where you don't run around, and have access to all the anti-undead abilities (aka. best conditions to just lay out the beats and drain the mana pool). Using that fight, where the mana strain would be at it's most, they wanted to make sure Paladins weren't going OOM too quickly. You got mad that they took your best fight and used it to nerf you, when in fact they wanted to balance you around your most mana intensive fight.

Stop letting overly emotional responses blind you from the facts.

[NotMaithanet]

The more I read this thread the more sad I am for TNGers.

Why is that?

[Kaliera]

I totally agree about Balance...I think it is probably next on the list (unless things are drastically different at 80).

In PvP, it is due to the drastically higher hit point pool and a moonkin's lack of ability to CC while doing said damage, and how locked down they are when something looks at them. That said, I anticipate that the current rank of starfire (maybe wrath too, but SF is the main culprit) will be toned down for 70 play.

Good moonkin are about as rare as good hunters of any type, so the spec seems to have fallen under the 'omfg nerf' bandwagon, but I'd agree that it needs looked at at the very least.

[Taknar]

Why is that?

Because we are turning on ourselves over things that, at the basic level, we all agree upon. Nerfs were needed, and JotW was a bit heavyhanded.

I understand that people are scared that their favourite class is going to be useless. I understand that other people are(were?) scared that they'd never be able to step into a battleground without 600 resilience.

But I also understand that these beta changes have only been in the build since Thursday or Friday, and that the beta servers have been a ghost town because of the events on live. Anyone who says that they've done enough testing to know anything for sure is kidding themselves. Though that's not a comment on TNGers, only the sources we are all using to back our arguments. Not enough data has been collected.

[Heidenreich]

Actually, I say we should wait until the people here who are good at Ret play with the changes.

I really hope you aren't saying I'm a bad Ret Paladin, because I'm considered the best Ret Paladin in PvE on the server by a huge portion of the Alliance and Horde.

I wouldn't say I'm anything special in PvP, I'm good, but I don't enjoy PvP unless I'm doing it with friends. Which usually means I have at least one pocket healer.

All of these changes are on the PTR for ANYONE to test out. I have already ran the tests on target dummies, so the numbers are a little wrong because Righteous Vengeance only ticks for 1 on the dummies (which is a Dispellable Version of Deep Wounds).

Pre 3.0.2 - Average DPS with a well built group 1650 to 1700 (remember no Seal of Blood/Martyr which at the time was an instant 150 DPS increase)

3.0.2 - Average DPS on a Single Target 2400 to 2600. All depended if the mob was Undead/Demon or not. Brutallius I pushed just shy 3k because I messed up and forgot to renew Seal of the Martyr for about 20 seconds.

New set of changes on the PTR - Average DPS about 1400. Like I said numbers are a bit off cause target dummies don't take the proper amount of damage from Righteous Vengeance, it only ticks for 1 on dummies (normally ticks for 207).

Now the new changes I haven't had a chance to test in a raid obviously, but I'm expecting to see 1800 to 1900 DPS in a raid (which I'm fine with), but going OOM within 3 minutes is out right retarded. I approve majority of the nerfs across the board. JotW was over board though. WAY OVERBOARD.

I went OOM within 3 minutes and no way to get myself back up in mana. I had to remove Consecration from my rotation, even though it was stated many times that the spell was intended to be part of the normal Ret Rotation. At about the two minute mark, I would have to start skipping on Divine Storm until after I judged.

People in Beta that HAVE 80 Ret Paladins and raid with them have already provided the numbers to GC and GC is an ignorant fuck who just out right ignored them. Paladins were close to the bottom in fights involving normal bosses. They excelled at Demons/Undead and would top charts there....umm makes sense to me. Paladins are the ones who should be dominating Undead/Demon mobs.

Warriors to say they don't have infinite Rage...you are just a piss poor warrior then. Once a fight gets going Warriors or at least good ones have no issue with their rage. They have no reason to not just go balls to the wall, because within 15 seconds of combat their Rage Bar is full and stays that way (but then again maybe I only play with good warriors). GC even stated that they were trying to find new and unique ways for Warriors to dump their Rage. Even if a Warrior does somehow manage to run out of Rage, they can build it back in no time.

Rogues energy is infinite. Sure it does drop to nothing at times, but it is CONTENTLY regaining.

Enhancement Shamans if they are running OOM are just bad players PERIOD. Then again maybe Roxin is the Creme Da Le Creme of Enhancement. He never has a mana issue, he never has had one.

Feral Druids...regardless of whether they are specced for Bear or Cat (since they have to chose now). Fall into Warrior or Rogue depending if they went Bear or Cat.

So this leaves Retribution Paladins. Blizzard's Bastard Child of melee DPS classes. We run off a mana bar that RIGHT now if not changed diminishes at a retardly fast rate and once it's gone that's it. We don't have a way to get it back. We will be getting Divine Plea, which is our gimped version of Evocation. This will be somewhat useful in PvE, it will help our mana pool for about 2 minutes total (tests again have been done on Beta). PvP it is utterly and totally useless (dispellable and can be spell stolen).

[Naheal]

Wait wait. As a healadin, what does a HOLY paladin bring that a ret doesn't? Better heals? Not as much as you might think. Right now, I'm not entirely happy where I am as holy because yeah, I can heal like a mofo, but in shorter duration stuff, a ret will pretty much match my healing, and when healing isn't needed as much, they can turn and do rediculous damage in comparison to my meager damage.

As someone who recently specced holy, I'll offer some insight:

Ret right now brings an awesome amount of healing to the battle. However, we cannot multi-target heal. No matter the situation, Ret makes a decent off-healer if it's needed.

Holy brings even more, especially with the recent change to the tree. The 30 yard range judgement spell with the spell haste attatched to it makes judging not only a good idea, but absolutely neccisary. If you take the right glyphs, you're putting out a stupid amount of healing. The key is to balance yourself between FoL spam and the occasional HL.

[Heidenreich]

Here you go, here's your proof on how bad of a state Ret Paladins are in....

http://wowwebstats.com/mej2qselnf1pm?a=x4c604#buffs

The Paladin is having to pop Dark Runes (remember those things from Scholo) and Mana Potions in order to stay in competitive DPS.

Go ahead and look at every fight and every person for the fight. The only other person popping Dark Runes was a Shadow Priest (who used two the entire time).

Please look at Patchwreck in particular. A 4 minute fight and he had to pop both a mana potion and a dark rune during that fight. 4 FUCKING MINUTES!!!

Now please try to tell me the class/spec won't be starved from their source of DPS....MANA.

[Taknar]

All of these changes are on the PTR for ANYONE to test out. I have already ran the tests on target dummies, so the numbers are a little wrong because Righteous Vengeance only ticks for 1 on the dummies (which is a Dispellable Version of Deep Wounds).

This is news to me. When you go to your PTR launcher, what version is it reporting?


I went OOM within 3 minutes and no way to get myself back up in mana.

Blessing of Wisdom, Seal of Wisdom, and at 80 Divine Plea. I'm not going to qualify these as all good ways to get back mana in a raid, but you need to include them if you are going to be treated objectively.


I had to remove Consecration from my rotation, even though it was stated many times that the spell was intended to be part of the normal Ret Rotation.

Citation? I've never seen a developer come out and tell a class what their rotation is supposed to consist of. If I was really being a hard ass, I'd ask you for several citations because you've said that they have stated it many times.


People in Beta that HAVE 80 Ret Paladins and raid with them have already provided the numbers to GC and GC is an ignorant fuck who just out right ignored them. Paladins were close to the bottom in fights involving normal bosses.

Citations of these numbers done in raids since the build hit beta? I'm fully ready to admit I'm wrong upon being shown the info, but based on how many people were logged onto the beta when I went on this weekend and how many DKs there were compared to other classes, there is no way there was a balanced 25 man raid going to check this out. I call bullshit.

Also, the bolded is conjecture and ad hominem attacks. It weakens your argument.

Edit: I've seen the above link of WWS and I'm looking at it now. Thanks for sharing it.


Warriors to say they don't have infinite Rage...you are just a piss poor warrior then. Once a fight gets going Warriors or at least good ones have no issue with their rage. They have no reason to not just go balls to the wall, because within 15 seconds of combat their Rage Bar is full and stays that way (but then again maybe I only play with good warriors). GC even stated that they were trying to find new and unique ways for Warriors to dump their Rage. Even if a Warrior does somehow manage to run out of Rage, they can build it back in no time.

Rogues energy is infinite. Sure it does drop to nothing at times, but it is CONTENTLY regaining.

...

Feral Druids...regardless of whether they are specced for Bear or Cat (since they have to chose now). Fall into Warrior or Rogue depending if they went Bear or Cat.

This isn't a comment to your argument but I don't know why people keep bringing this up. It's one thing to compare the DPS and utility between the melee classes, but the resource mechanics are completely independant of each other. Maybe it's because people secretly, or not so secretly, want a rage bar instead. But you don't have a rage bar, you have a mana bar. And I don't see them changing it. It's perfectly fine to say "We can't perform any moves after x minutes, and fights last longer than that." People don't need to bring rage and energy bars into it unless they believe that they shouldn't have to manage their mana... in which case they are setting themselves up for disapointment imo.


Enhancement Shamans if they are running OOM are just bad players PERIOD. Then again maybe Roxin is the Creme Da Le Creme of Enhancement. He never has a mana issue, he never has had one.

So this leaves Retribution Paladins. Blizzard's Bastard Child of melee DPS classes. We run off a mana bar that RIGHT now if not changed diminishes at a retardly fast rate and once it's gone that's it. We don't have a way to get it back. We will be getting Divine Plea, which is our gimped version of Evocation. This will be somewhat useful in PvE, it will help our mana pool for about 2 minutes total (tests again have been done on Beta). PvP it is utterly and totally useless (dispellable and can be spell stolen).

PvP comparison of Evocation and Divine Plea is fair. The former can be stopped easily because it is channeled, so a kick or a knockback effect cancels it. Divine Plea can be removed. However, count the number of classes that have a kick and/or knockback effect and the number of classes that have an offensive dispell and tell me that Divine Plea is worse.

PvE comparison:

Divine Plea (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=54428): Regens 125&#37; total mana every 5 minutes, 25% total mana per minute over 15 seconds. Not channeled. No DPS loss.
Evocation (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12051): Regens 60% total mana every 5 minutes, over 8 seconds of zero DPS.

All spell costs are in terms of base mana percentages, and base mana is always less than total mana because of int gained while leveling. So how is Divine Plea in any way worse for a ret paladin in PvE?

[Heidenreich]

This is news to me. When you go to your PTR launcher, what version is it reporting?


Just look at the SS. Like I said, they are all there on the PTR already. Current build number is 9138, these changes were already in the build before that.

[Taknar]

Just look at the SS. Like I said, they are all there on the PTR already. Current build number is 9138, these changes were already in the build before that.

Thanks. I didn't know they were patching the PTR and Beta at the same time. I have the beta launcher and so get through to both server clusters with that.

[Keraph]

However, we cannot multi-target heal. No matter the situation, Ret makes a decent off-healer if it's needed.

To my knowledge, unless I'm severely missing something, neither can I. The Holy Light glyph is mandatory for healadins, but a ret can pick it up too if they choose. Bacon IS a way to guarantee that the MT is getting healed while you're taking care of any other hurt members, but it's not like I'm prioritizing DPS over tanks in the first place, so if the tank needs heals he's getting heals.

I'm not complaining about holy. I'm really not. I'm a great healer and I don't think that my performance really needs a boost (Though I wouldn't complain with one XD). If a ret paladin is in a raid with me, he's not there to heal in the first place. Really the issue I have with it is that there's no reason to be a holy paladin in PvP right now, because Ret has all it needs for the more short-term healing that PvP tends to call for.

[Yatokth]

I really hope you aren't saying I'm a bad Ret Paladin, because I'm considered the best Ret Paladin in PvE on the server by a huge portion of the Alliance and Horde.

I wouldn't say I'm anything special in PvP, I'm good, but I don't enjoy PvP unless I'm doing it with friends. Which usually means I have at least one pocket healer.

Not bashing your skill, in fact one of the people I thought of when I thought "let's have the good retadins test it" - was you.


All of these changes are on the PTR for ANYONE to test out. I have already ran the tests on target dummies, so the numbers are a little wrong because Righteous Vengeance only ticks for 1 on the dummies (which is a Dispellable Version of Deep Wounds).

But not everyone is. Since you have played I definitely respect your opinion.


Pre 3.0.2 - Average DPS with a well built group 1650 to 1700 (remember no Seal of Blood/Martyr which at the time was an instant 150 DPS increase)

3.0.2 - Average DPS on a Single Target 2400 to 2600. All depended if the mob was Undead/Demon or not. Brutallius I pushed just shy 3k because I messed up and forgot to renew Seal of the Martyr for about 20 seconds.

New set of changes on the PTR - Average DPS about 1400. Like I said numbers are a bit off cause target dummies don't take the proper amount of damage from Righteous Vengeance, it only ticks for 1 on dummies (normally ticks for 207).

Now the new changes I haven't had a chance to test in a raid obviously, but I'm expecting to see 1800 to 1900 DPS in a raid (which I'm fine with), but going OOM within 3 minutes is out right retarded. I approve majority of the nerfs across the board. JotW was over board though. WAY OVERBOARD.

I completely, whole heartedly, and utterly agree. Put it back at 33% in my book, but I can actually see them going around 20-25 ish. Better than 15 at least.


I went OOM within 3 minutes and no way to get myself back up in mana. I had to remove Consecration from my rotation, even though it was stated many times that the spell was intended to be part of the normal Ret Rotation. At about the two minute mark, I would have to start skipping on Divine Storm until after I judged.

People in Beta that HAVE 80 Ret Paladins and raid with them have already provided the numbers to GC and GC is an ignorant fuck who just out right ignored them. Paladins were close to the bottom in fights involving normal bosses. They excelled at Demons/Undead and would top charts there....umm makes sense to me. Paladins are the ones who should be dominating Undead/Demon mobs.

GC isn't 'an ignorant fuck' (very sick of people bashing devs) he just doesn't have the time to respond to each and every post - he looks at them though. Keep in mind he's juggling 10 classes, ALL of which are QQing about SOMETHING.

I know the numbers situation - Warriors have been continually showing the devs how much TG isn't that awesome - it's finally settling down. It'll get there.


Warriors to say they don't have infinite Rage...you are just a piss poor warrior then. Once a fight gets going Warriors or at least good ones have no issue with their rage. They have no reason to not just go balls to the wall, because within 15 seconds of combat their Rage Bar is full and stays that way (but then again maybe I only play with good warriors). GC even stated that they were trying to find new and unique ways for Warriors to dump their Rage. Even if a Warrior does somehow manage to run out of Rage, they can build it back in no time.

Rogues energy is infinite. Sure it does drop to nothing at times, but it is CONTENTLY regaining.

Any Arms warrior's rage bar is NOT constantly full unless they SUCK. Dump, dump, dump, dump, dump. Unless you're tanking, you should not be in an infinite rage situation. Trust me, I have PvPed and PvEed on my Arms warrior, and I consider myself to not suck - I know how it goes.

Now that doesn't mean we have ISSUES with rage - our rage gen is fantastic. I DO go balls to the wall in every fight, and it's great. It's just not an 'infinite rage' situation - confusing that with tanking.

Just terminology there.


Enhancement Shamans if they are running OOM are just bad players PERIOD. Then again maybe Roxin is the Creme Da Le Creme of Enhancement. He never has a mana issue, he never has had one.

Feral Druids...regardless of whether they are specced for Bear or Cat (since they have to chose now). Fall into Warrior or Rogue depending if they went Bear or Cat.

So this leaves Retribution Paladins. Blizzard's Bastard Child of melee DPS classes. We run off a mana bar that RIGHT now if not changed diminishes at a retardly fast rate and once it's gone that's it. We don't have a way to get it back. We will be getting Divine Plea, which is our gimped version of Evocation. This will be somewhat useful in PvE, it will help our mana pool for about 2 minutes total (tests again have been done on Beta). PvP it is utterly and totally useless (dispellable and can be spell stolen).

It isn't utterly and totally useless - many things that can be dispelled/spell stolen aren't useless:

Hand of Freedom
Bubble
Polymorph
Entangling Roots
Evocation
Ice Block
Power Word: Shield
Wound Poison
Crippling Poison

Basically anything that requires a dispel is them wasting a GCD to try and get rid of it. Dispellable =! bad automatically.

I do however, agree that a 15% JotW is very piss-poor and needs to be changed. I would suggest reverting it to its normal state, but I doubt Blizz will do that, as I have said a few times: 25% pl0x.

[Moknim]

I am going to step out of this argument, but wanted to clarify my stance: Heid, Lis, et al I agree that in PvE Retadins should not have mana problems and that their DPS should be comparable to other classes - your mana bars should last through a typical rage timer pulling out all your tricks (ie, divine plea, judgement of wisdom - heck, maybe taking blessing of wisdom instead of might/kings).

In PvP, I think their damage should be less bursty and they should have mana problems. Heck, resto druids have mana problems in PvP and they were known to be extraordinarily mana-efficient in PvE.

That is my take, no clue how it can be accomplished.

[Yatokth]

I am going to step out of this argument, but wanted to clarify my stance: Heid, Lis, et al I agree that in PvE Retadins should not have mana problems and that their DPS should be comparable to other classes - your mana bars should last through a typical rage timer pulling out all your tricks (ie, divine plea, judgement of wisdom - heck, maybe taking blessing of wisdom instead of might/kings).

In PvP, I think their damage should be less bursty and they should have mana problems. Heck, resto druids have mana problems in PvP and they were known to be extraordinarily mana-efficient in PvE.

That is my take, no clue how it can be accomplished.

Quite simply, buff JotW and you get exactly what you just outlined.

Put it around 25% and they'll be good to go in a raid with all the replenishment from other members, along with perhaps a blessing of wisdom? And in PvP, they'll have longevity, but still be vulnerable to burns and drains, but at the same time not crippled by them.

[Yatokth]

An interesting post from the beta forums:


GC,

The balance between mana regen vs mana drain seems lopsided to me. WotLK has changed spells to be a &#37; of base mana, and changed or introduced active mana regen skills and talents to be a % of mana as well (whether that is base or maximum). Now I know there are still mana regen abilities like Blessing of Wisdom, and items that give a flat amount. But the numbers are small compared to drain effects.

Why are mana draining effects and skills still based on a HUGE flat number? For example, Mana Burn takes away 1478 to 1562 mana. Isn't that too hefty? If the answer is that the amount burned also translates to damage done...well, then I suggest it's time to UNLINK the amount of mana drained from damage done.

Mana burning someone for 1500 a pop is pretty ridiculous considering the size of Ret's mana pool. Please do a pass and make changes to mana draining effects. I won't sugarcoat it: PLEASE NERF.

Some people have suggested drains should be % based, like a lot of the regen "defense" we have. We'd be glad to test this for you immediately.

Repeated for emphasis: please unlink the damage done of these abilities. They should be independent of the secondary effect of removing someone's mana.

Thanks.

I think it's a great idea - I still think JotW should be buffed, but this would help.

Plus I hate drain/burn comps - boring as shit.

[Taknar]

People want to make mana drains scale with opponents gear? Really?

If people want to buff me, I'll take it!

[Yatokth]

People want to make mana drains scale with opponents gear? Really?

If people want to buff me, I'll take it!

Mana burn atm is a large flat number.

I'm thinking what they want is for it to be a percentage, so it basically stays the same (maybe a tad weaker since it scales now) against high mana targets, but against things like enh shamans and retadins, it doesn't absolutely lay them over since they're not bathing in mana.

[Heidenreich]

In PvP, I think their damage should be less bursty and they should have mana problems. Heck, resto druids have mana problems in PvP and they were known to be extraordinarily mana-efficient in PvE.


I said this first day I went onto the PTR. Infinite Mana in PvP was stupid. The burst was that of a Raid Boss on a Clothie, but insert Clothie with anybody for PvP; 16k to 18k in two seconds is stupid and was easy to do.

So the nerfs that happened towards the PvP Aspect and even the burst aspect in general were needed and more then welcomed.

Judgments of the Wise needed tweaking, but not as much as they did. 33% is way to much, 15% is way to little. Honestly, 25% would be about right.

It's just enough that we will still be able to utilize ALL of our abilities, but it's not enough to guarantee every spell should be used just because the GCD is up. You will still have to think before using an ability. In the begining of a fight go all out, from there we will have to play the GCD and Mana/Energy/Rage game like any other class.

33% our mana pool was quite literally infinite. I was having no problem going side by side with Fynne in Damage in DPS. I would Judge Light on mobs, to counter act the damage from Martyr, and also got a good chunk of healing out of the deal (there's a SS of a Gruul's where I tanked Gruul, was #1 Dmg, #2 DPS, & #1 Healing since the patch).

15% our mana pool will shrink right before our very eyes. A rotation of Divine Storm, Judgment, Crusader Strike, and Divine Plea is making us go OOM way to fast still. This right here is what any good Ret Paladin is upset about.

Speaking from the Ret Perspective.

We are okay with the dame change on Judgment. Glyph of Judgment increase the damage by 10%. So essentially we are only losing 10% of the original damage (still 20% if you didn't have the Glyph, but I see majority going with Glyph of Command and Glyph of Crusader Strike anyways right now). So instead of me judging and hitting stuff for 4.5k to 5.5k, I'll be judging for 3.5k to 4.5k (I am using the glyph of judgment). Not really that big of a loss. For Retribution, I feel bad for my Brothers and Sisters who prefer Holy or Protection as their path.

{Tested on the PTR and that's exactly where they are hitting for me}

My only other SUPER BIG issue is Righteous Vengeance. They take away so much of our Crit with those abilities (I still have like 35% Spell Crit when raid buffed) and the DoT really doesn't tick that hard (207 from what I was getting on the PTR). This isn't going to make-up that much from the burst we lost. If they expanded it to work off of Judgment, Divine Storm and Crusader Strike I think it would be a bit more acceptable, because it would be up more often (rather then just the first two).

My only other real concern, the thing that pissed me off and had me in a huff all day yesterday, is how much this is going to HURT Protection and Holy Paladins. Holy is going to be HORRIBLE now to try and level as. I had a blast leveling 60 through 70 as Holy. Right now with their current state, they will be forced to be stuck in instances or grinding quests with at least one more person.

Protection is losing a lot of Threat Per Second off of these changes. Protection Paladins were finally at the point, were if one was good enough, they could actually be a Main Tank of a guild; rather then a Warrior or Druid.

[Yatokth]

My only other SUPER BIG issue is Righteous Vengeance. They take away so much of our Crit with those abilities (I still have like 35% Spell Crit when raid buffed) and the DoT really doesn't tick that hard (207 from what I was getting on the PTR). This isn't going to make-up that much from the burst we lost. If they expanded it to work off of Judgment, Divine Storm and Crusader Strike I think it would be a bit more acceptable, because it would be up more often (rather then just the first two).

You underestimate the power of this DoT - yes it doesn't tick off of every attack, but it DOES tick based upon the damage of your critical strike rather than weapon damage (AKA it's better) it doesn't look like much, but over time, especially if it rolls like deep wounds, it adds up.

Working off of judgement would help it out alot.

[Heidenreich]

It currently works with Judgment and Divine Storm, but with a lot of crit now gone from both of those abilities, it's up less often then it should be or at least I assume that. That's the reason why I would like to see the Crusader Strike ability make Righteous Vengeance go up as well.

Give me from a Warrior's aspect how long Deeps Wounds would typically be up in say a 6 minute boss fight. I wanna go test on the PTR how long I can keep it up in the same length of time, so I can compare. I actually don't know how long it should be up for (Deep Wounds that is).

SO GIMMIE INFO QUICK!!!!

If it is relevantly the same amount of time in the current state, I'll retract my statement about the CS proccing it to and go back to just worrying about JotW!

[Moknim]

I said this first day I went onto the PTR. Infinite Mana in PvP was stupid. The burst was that of a Raid Boss on a Clothie, but insert Clothie with anybody for PvP; 16k to 18k in two seconds is stupid and was easy to do.

And who said Horde and Alliance don't get along?

I agree with most of what you said, and the parts I didn't agree with was because I didn't know what you were talking about because I don't know ret.

[Fynne]

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but wouldn't a minor reduction to the raidwide mana regen (to balance the choice of bringing a Ret Paladin vs. bringing a Shadow Priest, for example) and a minor increase to the cost of Paladin spells address the whole infinite mana issue without screwing raid viability?

As far as being able to fit in ALL of their abilities to a rotation, I think that 'should' put them out of mana, and 3 minutes running all cylinders seems, from my point of view, pretty fair. That's quite a long period of time for a Paladin to be able to give it their all; in fact, I would even argue that they should be able to pull out all the stops for a shorter period of time, but the danger there would be that to compensate for a shorter period, the damage would have to increase and then the burst issues come back up.

Ret Paladins should (and I hate using the word "should;" I'm not a developer, so this is just my interpretation of how a mana class works with finite resources like mana) have a burst cycle for when they're high mana, and then abilities that they have to cut out of that cycle (using consecrate as an example, for shits and giggles) once their mana gets low, so that they're back in the positive for regaining mana.

Quite possibly, they're just going to have to keep tweaking the abilities and mana costs until they achieve a balance where a full rotation will deplete you of mana in a reasonable amount of time (3 minutes, now) and a more efficient, but less DPS rotation will cost you less mana than you're gaining. From reading some of GCs posts regarding druids and lifebloom (I think... if someone could find the quote, that would help a lot with my credibility here) it seems like this is the philosophy that the developers are going for: they don't want a class to have go-to abilities; they want certain spells to be better at high DPS or burst heals, and certain spells to be very efficient mana-wise.

I realize that this thread has argued that Ret Paladins aren't a caster-hybrid, and I'm not trying to contradict that. When I take their description of how they want spells to function, I'm interpreting that as any attack -- from a rogue point of view, this is why they don't want fan of knives to cost less energy or have a lower cooldown; they don't want it to be a go-to ability. They want players to have to choose which abilities they use and not have a mash one button (or two buttons) rotation. I'm not saying that Ret Paladins have to mash one button to get the job done, just that Blizzard is in the process of tweaking their abilities so that mana is a concern and they'll have to be in the same boat as other finite resource classes in regard to selecting which attack (or which rotation of attacks) to use depending on the level of that resource.

I do agree, however, that these nerfs are a little extreme; I'm glad that they tried to surgically fix the imbalance problem before, but when that failed, I can see where they're trying to go with this, and as Dio mentioned earlier, they're now trying to balance upward instead of downward. Optimistically, this should mean that each future patch will include surgical buffs to Paladins instead of slowly whittling them down with nerfs, which can be very demoralizing when each patch is something demoralizing instead of something to look forward to.

[Yatokth]

It currently works with Judgment and Divine Storm, but with a lot of crit now gone from both of those abilities, it's up less often then it should be or at least I assume that. That's the reason why I would like to see the Crusader Strike ability make Righteous Vengeance go up as well.

Give me from a Warrior's aspect how long Deeps Wounds would typically be up in say a 6 minute boss fight. I wanna go test on the PTR how long I can keep it up in the same length of time, so I can compare. I actually don't know how long it should be up for (Deep Wounds that is).

SO GIMMIE INFO QUICK!!!!

If it is relevantly the same amount of time in the current state, I'll retract my statement about the CS proccing it to and go back to just worrying about JotW!

I'll playtest later (if I remember) but let me put it this way:

I'm not axe spec, that buffs deep wounds. I have 34% crit in battle stance. Were I axe, taht's 39, approaching 40.

On any ability.

Improved Overpower - Increases the critical strike chance of your Overpower ability by 50%.

90% crit on a mob. And I use Overpower from Taste for Blood, ROUGHLY every 9 seconds (30% chance proc on Rend ticks) and deep wounds lasts 6 seconds.

Now, I also mash Sudden Death when it pops, Mortal Strike when it's up, and if nothing is proccing, I hit slam for my GCD (lolrage) so within those 9 seconds I'm dumping attacks that have a chance to crit (let's not mention that sudden death in its current iteration requires a crit - not so after 3.0.3 though) every 40%.

Deep Wounds is up NEARLY all the time. It consists the highest part of any arms warrior's damage.

[Heidenreich]

From Ghostcrawler today on the Beta Forums:

The damage was too high in PvE and PvP. It was too high for some time in beta. We found (or more accurately the players found) a couple of bugs that we hoped were causing the inflation. When we fixed the bugs, unfortunately, Ret damage was still too high. We made the infamous "surgical" attempt to fix Ret's damage, but that ended up not doing as much as we hoped. We then made a second round of larger nerfs that just went on to the beta build.

Since then, what we're finding is that Ret's dps seems okay on PvE but only if they use a lot of expensive AE spells like Consecration and Holy Wrath even against single targets in long fights (e.g. raid bosses), which in turn causes them to run out of mana too quickly. Players suspect that if they don't use those spells that their dps won't be competitive. That is what we are looking at right now. Buffing Martyr / Blood might be an option since those are more often used in PvE and riskier to use in PvP.

Now if they were to buff Blood/Martyr it could fix a lot of issues with mana. I mean A LOT!!! Blood/Martyr is already the dominate seal to go with for PvE (silly Alliance Paladins still DPSing with Command). Using Glyph of Seal of Blood would be amazing....that is if the damage caused to you by the seal is upped by a good amount.

(M)Glyph Seal of Blood - Your Seal of Blood or Seal of the Martyr increases the mana received from Spiritual Attunement by 10% while active.

So assuming they up either the damage of Seal of Blood/Martyr, the damage it deals to the Paladin or BOTH! Heals will then give you 20% of the mana healed instead of 10%.

THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE A SAVIOR FOR PVE IF TRUE!!!

An adjustment to Judgments of the Wise is still needed in my opinion, but changing something on Blood/Martyr would be FANTASTIC! PvE it is awesome, PvP it's suicide if you don't have a healer with you.

I may just have to take my ignorant fuck remark about GC back if HE (yes HE not SHE) actually does something like this. Would show Blizzard finally cares about their Bastard Child.

[Taknar]

As some else already commented Heid, if they wanted mana regen from spiritual attunement to be an important part of PvE regen they'd need to change it such that divine storm doesn't heal them anymore. Between Judgment of Light and DS, you rob yourself of a lot of potential mana from healing yourself.

Also to who ever it was that said that DS's heal was negligible, it's overheal was 13 or so percent in the parse at 80. That's fairly low, and means good things for the ability.

[Heidenreich]

As some else already commented Heid, if they wanted mana regen from spiritual attunement to be an important part of PvE regen they'd need to change it such that divine storm doesn't heal them anymore. Between Judgment of Light and DS, you rob yourself of a lot of potential mana from healing yourself.

You missed the part I put in BOLD then.


Buffing Martyr / Blood might be an option since those are more often used in PvE and riskier to use in PvP.

As for Judgment of Light, simple don't Judge it! Judgment of Wisdom exists as well!

But the suggestion to buff Blood/Martyr along with the Glyph could become very effective.

PS: Even with Judging Light I still take an truck load of damage.

[Taknar]

No no, you're misunderstanding me. I made that statement under the assumption of a raid scenario with a buffed seal of blood. I agree with you and them that buffing seal of blood would help mana regen, but it would help even more if you had fewer ways to accidentally heal yourself just by doing your DPS rotation.

Also in the circles I run with, running a 25 man raid with only 1 paladin is a rather odd scenario to be in. I had two ret pallies in my raid just last night and they were Leoren and Anorah, not exactly part of the flavour of the month club. But you are right, having the protection or holy paladin judge light and the ret pally judge wisdom works if there is only 1 ret pally in the raid. Sorry for overlooking that.

[Korangar]

I watched a particular paladin known to be one of the best pvp ret paladins solo Onyxia down to 1/3 of her life a few days ago. He was unsuccessful in finishing her due to an interfering incident. Up to that point though, he managed to keep his life and mana nearly full throughout most of the fight.

What spells he used I can't say for sure because I don't pay attention to those, but it was impressive and disheartening all at once.

[Heidenreich]

I watched a particular paladin known to be one of the best pvp ret paladins solo Onyxia down to 1/3 of her life a few days ago. He was unsuccessful in finishing her due to an interfering incident. Up to that point though, he managed to keep his life and mana nearly full throughout most of the fight.

What spells he used I can't say for sure because I don't pay attention to those, but it was impressive and disheartening all at once.

A Prot Paladin soloed here before 3.0.2 notes were even released to the public though. >.>

[Cpike]

This.

I think the healadins should be QQ'ing more than the retadins.

Although most every paladin seems to have gone ret.

I'm still holy. And on a side note, I think half the main druids should shut up (at least you) if they think they have any credibility in some debate involving who QQ's from "unfairness". From the previous comments, you started the whole QQ RET BG'Z! I said I predicted, as well many others and -you- that any Ret would get brought down BELOW a medium baseline. I know Rets in greens and blues destroying high epic geared people is wrong. It's how they get brought down is wrong.

And I said it before..Not now, but when the dust clears, everything will be back to Rogues and Druids. Do I want this? I don't want anyone, not even paladins to be #1. I want real team based.

[Heidenreich]

So I'm running tests right now between the PTR and Live. My character on the PTR is a bit gimped compared to live (since I transferred him I have gotten the Cloak off of Teron Gorefiend and my Tier 6 Boots, I also don't have my glyphs.).

So first I tested the most basic of attack rotations. Judgment, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm. I used, Might, Judgment of Wisdom, used my Instant Flash of Light ability when needed, and popped Avenging Wrath every cool down (no outside buffs). Based off of 6 minutes the results are . . .

Live - 1617.11 DPS
PTR - 1591.77 DPS

No mana issue what so ever. Add a healer into the situation and likely Consecration could of been thrown into the mix as well. The new Righteous Vengeance DoT is seriously pretty good.

Now the same set-up, but with Consecration added to the mix.

Live - 1951.60 (at 4 Minutes 20 Seconds I had to start skipping Consecration for Judgments in a 2:1 Ratio)
PTR - 1815.43 (OOM in 2 Minutes 40 Seconds. It went downhill fast from there and was no way to recover and I stopped recoding data at the 3 Minute 30 Second mark. That number signifies when I went OOM.)

Now for the second set where I added Consecration to the mix, IF I had a healer I would of had no problems sustaining my mana and keeping Consecration in the mix. I most likely would of had to become selective with Consecration around the same point and time.

Basically everything I am getting out of these nerfs from what I can see is . .

We will be on par with Enhancement Shamans for Damage/DPS. That's EXACTLY where Retribution Paladins should be. When these nerfs actually go live, my numbers from the PTR should increase slightly, because of Glyphs and Gear difference.

A slight tweak to Judgment of the Wise still is needed, but it should never reach the 33&#37; range again. After these two tests, I think 25% would be asking more then enough. Consecration could then be added to the mix in the rotation, but there will be now way possible to have it out 100% of the time. I'm thinking it would be used 50% of the time then.

PS: I know there are Retribution Paladins out there in better gear and ones who can out DPS me. There's always someone better even if you are the Biggest Fish in your own pond.

((This was my post from the Paladin Forums, hence the whole PS part))

EDIT: I didn't find out til after wards, but the Judgment of the Wise hot fix went in while I was doing the testing.

[Yatokth]

So I'm running tests right now between the PTR and Live. My character on the PTR is a bit gimped compared to live (since I transferred him I have gotten the Cloak off of Teron Gorefiend and my Tier 6 Boots, I also don't have my glyphs.).

So first I tested the most basic of attack rotations. Judgment, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm. I used, Might, Judgment of Wisdom, used my Instant Flash of Light ability when needed, and popped Avenging Wrath every cool down (no outside buffs). Based off of 6 minutes the results are . . .

Live - 1617.11 DPS
PTR - 1591.77 DPS

No mana issue what so ever. Add a healer into the situation and likely Consecration could of been thrown into the mix as well. The new Righteous Vengeance DoT is seriously pretty good.

Told you. :P

Seriously, look at yourself dealing a 3k crit (you may do more) before the new talents -

With 45% crit modifier (Art of War, Righteous Vengeance) your crit is 3k, base damage of ~1200ish.

That same, crit, with only a 20% modifier (Art of War's tooltip changed, but effect remains I believe - 10% damage on all = 20% damage on crit) is only ~2600, BUT you get 40% of that crit as a DoT - which brings to around ~3600.

New Righteous Vengeance > Old Righteous Vengance for PvE, and it's less bursty for PvP.

Also, as for your mana conclusions, while I agree it may be fine for PvE, retadins NEED mana to do all their utility and heals AND do damage in PvP. 20-25% ish JotW would accomplish this I think.

[Chikt]

A few posts by Blizzard that I thought were interesting.

EDIT: Just from today, I might add.


[...]

As I posted in one thread, you should be able to use those core abilities (Divine Storm, a Judgement / Seal and Crusader Strike) without going OOM. Some players are finding that to be true, so please let us know if you aren't.

If you do add Consecration or healing, your mana should drop down lower. You're making a choice not to be sustainable in order to do something else.

Divine Plea should help offset that at 80. Some of the Int on your gear should help offset that for now.


We don't want mana to be irrelevant (for any class) but we don't want it to be so limiting that you spend a great portion of a long fight on fumes. When you hit that point is a little subjective and also varies based on gear and skill.

Consectation and Holy Wrath (and to a lesser extent Divine Storm) are AE spells, and those are priced so that they aren't as efficient against single targets. These would be the equivalent of a hunter using Volley or a mage using Arcane Explosion against single targets. They are useful tools in your arsenal and sometimes you are in a situation where you're mana rich or you need to burn down a mob at any cost. Exorcism is a single target spell and shouldn't be too expensive, but it's also not something you can use in every fight.

[...] Now as I posted in another thread, if Ret paladins can't do decent damage without relying on those AEs, then that is a problem we need to look at.


We think you can go almost indefinetely on mana by using Divine Storm, Crusader Strike and a Seal / Judgement. If you want to add things to that, Consecration, Hammer or a heal perhaps, your mana will start to dip, but Divine Plea should make up for that. In PvP, you can make the choice to blow all of your mana knowing that you have time before the next fight to build your reserves back up. Or if you want to go from target to target with no downtime, don't blow all of your mana.


We will do some tests and analysis of whether Ret is too susceptible to mana drains in PvP since that seems to be something the community is worried about.

It's certainly not something they are being ignorant about. Paladins are getting the most attention right now.

[Moknim]

I am taking the rest of your comment to PM, but:


And I said it before..Not now, but when the dust clears, everything will be back to Rogues and Druids. Do I want this? I don't want anyone, not even paladins to be #1. I want real team based.

There will always be some class/combo that is best in 2s. It has been Warr/Druid (pretty much) up until now (although Warr/Shaman and Rogue/Druid was very strong). There will always be a 'best' spec/class for everything: rogues/warlocks used to do the most damage (if they had a Enh.Shaman/S.Priest), Healadins were the best single target healer, Druids the best on the move healer - but don't ask either of them to heal a group, Protadins the best AoE tank, etc. When it comes to Min/Maxing, there is always a min and a max, no matter what (although this will be more based on skill in the Wrath raids).

If you want real team based, play 5s where almost every class can find a niche.

[Heidenreich]

OK! I don't normally post WWS Reports for the public eyes EVER, but I have to this one time. My Final Night of Glory! First Legion vs Kil'Jaeden. Kil'Jaeden 37, First Legion 1! (total amount of attempts put in over 2 nights)

Heidenreich Pimp Slaps Kil'Jaeden! (http://wowwebstats.com/pzyvlelzv4wvq?s=682075-737415)

Oh how I will miss these numbers, but I can deal with it.

EDIT: But if anyone was still saying Ret wasn't over powered, there's your proof. #1 in Damage by 143,207. #1 in DPS by over 300. #6 in healing (we brought 8 healers, guess I made it 9).

[Yatokth]

OK! I don't normally post WWS Reports for the public eyes EVER, but I have to this one time. My Final Night of Glory! First Legion vs Kil'Jaeden. Kil'Jaeden 37, First Legion 1! (total amount of attempts put in over 2 nights)

Heidenreich Pimp Slaps Kil'Jaeden! (http://wowwebstats.com/pzyvlelzv4wvq?s=682075-737415)

Oh how I will miss these numbers, but I can deal with it.

EDIT: But if anyone was still saying Ret wasn't over powered, there's your proof. #1 in Damage by 143,207. #1 in DPS by over 300. #6 in healing (we brought 8 healers, guess I made it 9).

Woo! I can rub it in Fynne's face that his glaives got beat by a RETADIN!!!

[Heidenreich]

Ok I am adding this Screen Shot only because I look so AWESOME in it. I popped a candy and got Ghost Form from it, but I don't look at it as Ghost Form. I look at is as Heidenreich ascending to a god like status after kill the Draenei's #1 Arch Enemy.

((If I mod wants to move the picture to another thread, go for it. Just don't delete my glory!))

[Naheal]

Woo! I can rub it in Fynne's face that his glaives got beat by a RETADIN!!!

In our current state, that's not saying much.

Heid, did healers drop during that fight, or are you much more melee heavy than it appears? I'm 8/0/53 atm and I'm still beaten by healers for the most part.

[Yatokth]

In our current state, that's not saying much.

Read mah post again and decide if its serious. :P

Also, back to Retadins in PvP:

Do they need more mana regen?

I think they do.

Discuss.

[Heidenreich]

Kil'Jaeden you can only have 5 melee tops. You have to stay 10 yards spread apart because of one of his abilities and his hit box is tiny (for such a big guy).

I would have to look at each individual during that fight to see who exactly died and who didn't, but I'm pretty sure more then 20 people were alive at the kill.

[Moknim]

You outhealed the resto shaman...well done?

[Heidenreich]

You outhealed the resto shaman...well done?

I out healed 2 Resto Shamans (one of which being the best on the server Alliance side imo) and a Resto Druid actually.

[Moknim]

I out healed 2 Resto Shamans (one of which being the best on the server Alliance side imo) and a Resto Druid actually.

Hmm...is it "two shaman" or "two shamans" - I intended mine as plural...

At least I know that my PvE healing will still be rocking in Wrath (considering the Druids at the top).

[NotMaithanet]

Tak, you told me not to worry as it was on the beta.


We are going to hotfix the nerfs to Judgement of the Wise (from 33% to 15%) and Seal and Judgement of Command (down 20% damage) to live

BAM. Judgements of the Wise nerf made it. Weeeeeeeeeeeeee for bypassing the PTR.

Can I get emotional now?

[Yatokth]

Tak, you told me not to worry as it was on the beta.



BAM. Judgements of the Wise nerf made it. Weeeeeeeeeeeeee for bypassing the PTR.

Can I get emotional now?

No.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9679741370&sid=2000&pageNo=1

[NotMaithanet]

Oh man. I think I can live with 20. Prefer 25, but I can live with 20.

[Heidenreich]

Tak, you told me not to worry as it was on the beta.



BAM. Judgements of the Wise nerf made it. Weeeeeeeeeeeeee for bypassing the PTR.

Can I get emotional now?

WRONG!

The change has been on the PTR for several days now. Look up a few posts and I even ran the tests for DPS differences. If you stick with a normal rotation of Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, and Judgment YOU WILL NOT HAVE A MANA ISSUE AT ALL. You will be on par with an Enhancement Shaman; EXACTLY where Retribution Paladins SHOULD BE!

If you want to go all out and use Consecration, Holy Wrath and Exorcism (when they can be used) expect to go OOM quickly. You will be chugging a Mana Potion, you will be popping a Dark Rune (or something similar to it), and you will have to be VERY selective about every attack.

But that's the price you will have to be willing to pay if you want to go ALL OUT!

[NotMaithanet]

WRONG!

The change has been on the PTR for several days now. Look up a few posts and I even ran the tests for DPS differences. If you stick with a normal rotation of Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, and Judgment YOU WILL NOT HAVE A MANA ISSUE AT ALL. You will be on par with an Enhancement Shaman; EXACTLY where Retribution Paladins SHOULD BE!

If you want to go all out and use Consecration, Holy Wrath and Exorcism (when they can be used) expect to go OOM quickly. You will be chugging a Mana Potion, you will be popping a Dark Rune (or something similar to it), and you will have to be VERY selective about every attack.

But that's the price you will have to be willing to pay if you want to go ALL OUT!

CAPS IS CRUISE CONTROL TO COOL!

That said, in a conversation with Taknar it seems neither of us knew it was on the PTR. So we were both wrong. Sometimes it happens!

[NotMaithanet]

Next up, the 20&#37; didnt go through. I'm returning 443 of 5,553 mana. Which is 15%.

[Yatokth]

Next up, the 20% didnt go through. I'm returning 443 of 5,553 mana. Which is 15%.

It's through in Beta.

Not on Live.

[Moknim]

The change has been on the PTR for several days now. Look up a few posts and I even ran the tests for DPS differences. If you stick with a normal rotation of Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, and Judgment YOU WILL NOT HAVE A MANA ISSUE AT ALL. You will be on par with an Enhancement Shaman; EXACTLY where Retribution Paladins SHOULD BE!

I approve of these changes. (and come on, my approval is what matters...now if only we could get Fynne's hair to approve...)

Heid, thanks for the DPS tests and posting the WWS for posterity's sake.

[Fynne]

Yeah, I was a little annoyed that my legendary weapons with +kill demons on them got beat by Heid and a mutilate rogue, but I still look better, and that's what matters. ...uh... right?

[NotMaithanet]

Correct.

[Taknar]

I can't see any additional information on it, but it seems they are testing 15&#37; of base on live and 20% total on PTR/BETA? I also didn't know they were patching PTR and BETA at the same time. I don't have a beta launcher, and all the announcements I'd seen were listed as beta notes and not PTR notes.

I think it's a good move to go from base mana to total mana since in a raid situation you will have the buffs that increase total mana. It won't do much more for PvP though, and I think that's why they moved this change to live via hotfix. They need moar numbers! I will meet any and all Paladins who want to mass test this change with a healer on their back. I suspect (read as: if I were doing it) they want to balance paladin mana regen on the assumption that your BG team or Arena team will have healers.

[Yatokth]

I can't see any additional information on it, but it seems they are testing 15% of base on live and 20% total on PTR/BETA? I also didn't know they were patching PTR and BETA at the same time. I don't have a beta launcher, and all the announcements I'd seen were listed as beta notes and not PTR notes.

I think it's a good move to go from base mana to total mana since in a raid situation you will have the buffs that increase total mana. It won't do much more for PvP though, and I think that's why they moved this change to live via hotfix. They need moar numbers! I will meet any and all Paladins who want to mass test this change with a healer on their back. I suspect (read as: if I were doing it) they want to balance paladin mana regen on the assumption that your BG team or Arena team will have healers.

Terrible move to total mana.

The small buffs don't make any different for retadins, but this again makes JotW AMAZING for holy, causing them to want it over anything in their tree.

It should be base, or moved. Or both!

[Keraph]

Yeah. Dear Blizz: Why would I want to spec holy for raid healing? Love, Cerr

*grumbles*

[Taknar]

Terrible move to total mana.

The small buffs don't make any different for retadins, but this again makes JotW AMAZING for holy, causing them to want it over anything in their tree.

It should be base, or moved. Or both!

Nerfing one tree to make another look more attractive is bad design.

Also when it comes to PvP healing, you'd have to show me why a hybrid spec is always a bad thing. If you can get the job done with x/0/33(or 34?), why not take it?

I mean at the bottom line it's still more useful to ret paladins on total mana than base mana. 20% total mana = (20+x)% base mana.

[Taknar]

Yeah. Dear Blizz: Why would I want to spec holy for raid healing? Love, Cerr

*grumbles*

Because bacon of light quite literally doubles your HPS and if you don't have it there is no way in hell I want to make up your heals because you were selfish =P